2 hours ago, Pates said:

The Jesse goes missing against the top teams argument is a chicken or the egg argument. We were beaten in those games in the midfield (except the first Geelong game where he played well), so does it stand to reason that in order for him to have a good game that the midfield is able to deliver it better into him and the other forwards to maximise their opportunities?

I’m not denying his lower output against better opposition but it’s like pointing out that Weids had a bad game vs WC in the prelim final, of course he did! The midfield was pantsed so he never got any opportunity. 

One thing I feel he needs to work on is staying in the contest longer against better teams, he seems to give up a bit (at least body language wise) when the good teams are able to set up denying him good one on one opportunities. But here’s the good news, he’s still young so he can keep working on these things and I truly believe that at some point in his career (whether it’s with us or someone else) he will clearly be the best KP forward. 

Arguably some merit in your thoughts but it's the latter noting of his 'dropping off' etc against closer attention which is his biggest downfall. I'd be generous enough to afford him that some coaching at times ,imho, let him down as he had to battle without a wingman at times but it's still down to him how you play.

I just don't think he has it. .. the ticker to play those games. He gives up all too frequently. I've seen it.. those that have attended games with me with no allegiance to the Dees but with good footy nous have seen it.

It amuses me somewhat to observe how much was bucketed upon Watts for having cruised into and through footy on his talent ( alone supposedly ), but not going that extra ( the opinion of many here ). Tbh I don't see Jesse as any better. He is a very talented and capable player...if allowed to be. If he has to step up a gear and go harder to maintain it...he invariably goes missing or shirks that second effort. 

I don't know that his attitudes will ever change much now.

Tbf, I'm disappointed in him. 

I'm not suggesting he's not good...but he's far from great.

Those that think he'll kick 70 odd are dreaming. He'd need to kick bags against harder opposition and he won't. Imho he's near his output ceiling already.

Teams that rely too much on one goalkicker won't will flags.

Smith knew that. 

Our inefficiency as a team isn't kicking scores. It's protecting them. The FD is looking to do two things with Jesse... Unload a non committal wantaway player ( who currently has pretty good currency...though not the outlandish price some suppose ) and bring in more scoreboard protection.

I'm staggered more don't support that notion. The team, the club is more important.

If Jesse is not to be the forward we thought at Melbourne he certainly won't be the Back. Whilst I thought an interesting experiment this year ( if to happen ) there's far better solutions than taking round pegs to square holes. It would be a gamble at best...a wasted opportunity at worst.

Want a back... during a window.  Get a back.

Get it done Dees

 

Looks like the club has already made a decision ln Hogan future...

25 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Arguably some merit in your thoughts but it's the latter noting of his 'dropping off' etc against closer attention which is his biggest downfall. I'd be generous enough to afford him that some coaching at times ,imho, let him down as he had to battle without a wingman at times but it's still down to him how you play.

I just don't think he has it. .. the ticker to play those games. He gives up all too frequently. I've seen it.. those that have attended games with me with no allegiance to the Dees but with good footy nous have seen it.

It amuses me somewhat to observe how much was bucketed upon Watts for having cruised into and through footy on his talent ( alone supposedly ), but not going that extra ( the opinion of many here ). Tbh I don't see Jesse as any better. He is a very talented and capable player...if allowed to be. If he has to step up a gear and go harder to maintain it...he invariably goes missing or shirks that second effort. 

I don't know that his attitudes will ever change much now.

Tbf, I'm disappointed in him. 

I'm not suggesting he's not good...but he's far from great.

Those that think he'll kick 70 odd are dreaming. He'd need to kick bags against harder opposition and he won't. Imho he's near his output ceiling already.

Teams that rely too much on one goalkicker won't will flags.

Smith knew that. 

Our inefficiency as a team isn't kicking scores. It's protecting them. The FD is looking to do two things with Jesse... Unload a non committal wantaway player ( who currently has pretty good currency...though not the outlandish price some suppose ) and bring in more scoreboard protection.

I'm staggered more don't support that notion. The team, the club is more important.

If Jesse is not to be the forward we thought at Melbourne he certainly won't be the Back. Whilst I thought an interesting experiment this year ( if to happen ) there's far better solutions than taking round pegs to square holes. It would be a gamble at best...a wasted opportunity at worst.

Want a back... during a window.  Get a back.

Get it done Dees

 

OK we know you hate him, give it a rest, fool, he has only played 4 full seasons of football, supporter's of Carlton said the same thing about josh Kennedy, when Judd came up they could not offer him up quick enough, he was the sweetner he  turned out better then judd. He is 23 and just about to enter the prime for a key forward, josh did not even average 1.5 goals a game before he played 80 games, jess already average  over 2 goals a game. So to say he will never kick 70 goals is a stupid thing to say, he kicked 47 goals from 20 games, going on his average he would have had about 60 goals if he played 25 games, not far off and he has only just hit the sweet spot for a footballer.

8 minutes ago, Ugottobekidding said:

Looks like the club has already made a decision ln Hogan future...

What were u hear that from

Hopefully we can euthanise this thread soon.

44 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Arguably some merit in your thoughts but it's the latter noting of his 'dropping off' etc against closer attention which is his biggest downfall. I'd be generous enough to afford him that some coaching at times ,imho, let him down as he had to battle without a wingman at times but it's still down to him how you play.

I just don't think he has it. .. the ticker to play those games. He gives up all too frequently. I've seen it.. those that have attended games with me with no allegiance to the Dees but with good footy nous have seen it.

It amuses me somewhat to observe how much was bucketed upon Watts for having cruised into and through footy on his talent ( alone supposedly ), but not going that extra ( the opinion of many here ). Tbh I don't see Jesse as any better. He is a very talented and capable player...if allowed to be. If he has to step up a gear and go harder to maintain it...he invariably goes missing or shirks that second effort. 

I don't know that his attitudes will ever change much now.

Tbf, I'm disappointed in him. 

I'm not suggesting he's not good...but he's far from great.

Those that think he'll kick 70 odd are dreaming. He'd need to kick bags against harder opposition and he won't. Imho he's near his output ceiling already.

Teams that rely too much on one goalkicker won't will flags.

Smith knew that. 

Our inefficiency as a team isn't kicking scores. It's protecting them. The FD is looking to do two things with Jesse... Unload a non committal wantaway player ( who currently has pretty good currency...though not the outlandish price some suppose ) and bring in more scoreboard protection.

I'm staggered more don't support that notion. The team, the club is more important.

If Jesse is not to be the forward we thought at Melbourne he certainly won't be the Back. Whilst I thought an interesting experiment this year ( if to happen ) there's far better solutions than taking round pegs to square holes. It would be a gamble at best...a wasted opportunity at worst.

Want a back... during a window.  Get a back.

Get it done Dees

 

1 example of this was the Port Game. In the last quarter on the wing Jesse went a 1 handed marking attempt. He got a good piece of it so as a marking option should have gone both hands and clunked it. Can't remember whether the ball was turned over or went out of bounds but the next disposal after that was a port kick down the line and a mark to Westoff and a 60m penalty which he slotted and stole the lead. It just wasn't good enough of an effort, especially at that critical stage in the game.

8 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

Hopefully we can euthanise this thread soon.

Don’t hold your breathe, until trade period is over it’ll keep ticking over. 

I think many Demonlanders are in denial. Hogan is a rare talent and is yet  to peak. It will be a significant loss if he goes. I fear we will have many painful years watching what he can do for another club. 

6 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

I think many Demonlanders are in denial. Hogan is a rare talent and is yet  to peak. It will be a significant loss if he goes. I fear we will have many painful years watching what he can do for another club. 

Dont fret, we are a strong club now.

The Hawks became even better after Buddy left, and they got pathetic compensation for him.

Edited October 14, 20186 yr by Petraccattack

4 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

I think many Demonlanders are in denial. Hogan is a rare talent and is yet  to peak. It will be a significant loss if he goes. I fear we will have many painful years watching what he can do for another club. 

I think you may well be right..but Im not sure that "decision" is or was entirely in the clubs hands chook. Hogan has had a big say in this.

10 hours ago, Nascent said:

AFL trade wrap today says talks are progressing between Freemantle and GWS for Lobb and suggested the following swaps could be on the cards.

GWS give Lobb and Pick 14

Freo give Pick 11 and Pick 23

If that happens then I can see a trade happening for Hogan quickly with Melbourne receiving 5 and 14. We will possibly have to even out with some later pick swaps for Freo to be happy. Guess it's all dependent on Freo trading Neale and learning to not be a d!ck. So probably won't happen actually.

Or Fremantle offer us 5 + 30 which is their next pick and try to hold onto 14.  That sounds more like Bell's MO.

There'll be epic melts here if that happens and we do that deal.

Lyon and Watson on SEN pumping up Hogan’s tyres. Probably doesn’t make a scrap of difference but better than hearing some of the trade radio hosts.

Edited October 14, 20186 yr by Dodos Demons

It is what it is and none of us can change what’s going to occur.

No other option than to accept what’s about to happen.

Im expecting the Lachie Neale trade to get done today.

12 minutes ago, DeeZee said:

It is what it is and none of us can change what’s going to occur.

No other option than to accept what’s about to happen.

Im expecting the Lachie Neale trade to get done today.

A fatalist and a fantasist.

23 minutes ago, Wells 11 said:

I think you may well be right..but Im not sure that "decision" is or was entirely in the clubs hands chook. Hogan has had a big say in this.

I just hope he has become disaffected with Freos prevarication- but I doubt it.

51 minutes ago, don't make me angry said:

OK we know you hate him, give it a rest, fool, he has only played 4 full seasons of football, supporter's of Carlton said the same thing about josh Kennedy, when Judd came up they could not offer him up quick enough, he was the sweetner he  turned out better then judd. He is 23 and just about to enter the prime for a key forward, josh did not even average 1.5 goals a game before he played 80 games, jess already average  over 2 goals a game. So to say he will never kick 70 goals is a stupid thing to say, he kicked 47 goals from 20 games, going on his average he would have had about 60 goals if he played 25 games, not far off and he has only just hit the sweet spot for a footballer.

I dont hate him at all.. This is a simplistic response. If someone doesnt gush over a player...they hate him..right...

I dont entertain much the ideas of comparisons to other players;  because..they ARE other players.  Jesse Hogan isnt a clone of Josh Kennedy...I wish. Forget the stats...thats a poor mans way to argument for mine.. Look at HOW he plays.

He's a 3 gear player in a 5 gear car.

Theres a difference between hate...and critique. I couldnt give a rats fart about Hogan as a person. It's what he brings to a TEAM effort. Individuals dont win games ( very very rarely ) ..Teams do ( 99%)

I want a balanced team...so do apparently the MFC

16 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

Or Fremantle offer us 5 + 30 which is their next pick and try to hold onto 14.  That sounds more like Bell's MO.

There'll be epic melts here if that happens and we do that deal.

So there bloody well should. I also agree with you that it's likely that Freo/Bell would offer that rather than 5 + 14. 

Perhaps maybe we could do 5 + 14 + 30 for Hogan and next years 1st round selection.

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

Arguably some merit in your thoughts but it's the latter noting of his 'dropping off' etc against closer attention which is his biggest downfall. I'd be generous enough to afford him that some coaching at times ,imho, let him down as he had to battle without a wingman at times but it's still down to him how you play.

I just don't think he has it. .. the ticker to play those games. He gives up all too frequently. I've seen it.. those that have attended games with me with no allegiance to the Dees but with good footy nous have seen it.

It amuses me somewhat to observe how much was bucketed upon Watts for having cruised into and through footy on his talent ( alone supposedly ), but not going that extra ( the opinion of many here ). Tbh I don't see Jesse as any better. He is a very talented and capable player...if allowed to be. If he has to step up a gear and go harder to maintain it...he invariably goes missing or shirks that second effort. 

I don't know that his attitudes will ever change much now.

Tbf, I'm disappointed in him. 

I'm not suggesting he's not good...but he's far from great.

Those that think he'll kick 70 odd are dreaming. He'd need to kick bags against harder opposition and he won't. Imho he's near his output ceiling already.

Teams that rely too much on one goalkicker won't will flags.

Smith knew that. 

Our inefficiency as a team isn't kicking scores. It's protecting them. The FD is looking to do two things with Jesse... Unload a non committal wantaway player ( who currently has pretty good currency...though not the outlandish price some suppose ) and bring in more scoreboard protection.

I'm staggered more don't support that notion. The team, the club is more important.

If Jesse is not to be the forward we thought at Melbourne he certainly won't be the Back. Whilst I thought an interesting experiment this year ( if to happen ) there's far better solutions than taking round pegs to square holes. It would be a gamble at best...a wasted opportunity at worst.

Want a back... during a window.  Get a back.

Get it done Dees

 

I agree with some of what you wrote but assuming he wouldnt make a great key back is based on nothing. Roos mentioned last week he thought Jesse would be just that. He was all Australian CHB in the under 18s. When hes gone back in periods he has looked natural to me and willing to defend. I think he Could be better than may as he has twice the ability. And a bigger tank. 

How  would you rate jack reiwoldt at 23 ? I thought he was the biggest drama queen and gave up when it all got too hard. He found a way with experience but probably moreso with personal maturity and now he does what’s best for the team. 

6 minutes ago, ManDee said:

A fatalist and a fantasist.

Just a realist.

Hogan will be gone by Wednesday.

1 minute ago, DeeZee said:

Just a realist.

Hogan will be gone by Wednesday.

I tend to agree.

1 hour ago, chook fowler said:

Hopefully we can euthanise this thread soon.

 

53 minutes ago, Pates said:

Don’t hold your breathe, until trade period is over it’ll keep ticking over. 

Once this is settled one way or another we can have a 350 page post mortem thread!

3 minutes ago, monoccular said:

 

Once this is settled one way or another we can have a 350 page post mortem thread!

something to look forward to

10 minutes ago, Bay Riffin said:

I agree with some of what you wrote but assuming he wouldnt make a great key back is based on nothing. Roos mentioned last week he thought Jesse would be just that. He was all Australian CHB in the under 18s. When hes gone back in periods he has looked natural to me and willing to defend. I think he Could be better than may as he has twice the ability. And a bigger tank. 

How  would you rate jack reiwoldt at 23 ? I thought he was the biggest drama queen and gave up when it all got too hard. He found a way with experience but probably moreso with personal maturity and now he does what’s best for the team. 

You are right about jumping jack, at 23 he had the same  criticisms that Hogan has, Carlton could not get rid of Kennedy fast enough when trading for judd, if all these smart Alex can tell me who was as good as Hogan before the age of 23, please do. You won't find 5 people in a the history of the game who has more then 150 goals, by the time they played 70 games.

Jesse was 4th in our B&F after round 16.

Can play.

 

3 minutes ago, don't make me angry said:

You are right about jumping jack, at 23 he had the same  criticisms that Hogan has, Carlton could not get rid of Kennedy fast enough when trading for judd, if all these smart Alex can tell me who was as good as Hogan before the age of 23, please do. You won't find 5 people in a the history of the game who has more then 150 goals, by the time they played 70 games.

This is what it comes back to for me with all the talk of him moving to defence. You can throw all the critiques about his game all you like but his raw data has him tracking as an absolute elite player by the time he reaches his prime. 

Why does it have to be him that we push into defence? Why not try Weiderman? Or swing Tom back there at times when it ain’t firing for him? Or using Preuss to drop into the hole. 

I’m not sold that May is the answer to our problems, rather I saw him as the club merely trying to get value out of a potential trade for losing Jesse.