Post Match Discussion - Round 12

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

5 hours ago, SFebey said:

Agree, we crumble when the heat is applied, it’s our biggest issue. Good teams absorb it and turn it back on the opponent. The biggest issue around this is leadership, there is none. Jones never stands up when chips are down, walks around with hands on hips.

Now we are getting closer to the core problem. 

Leadership. 

Max Gawn was giving us the ball but nobody grabbed it. Bar 10 mins in the 2nd Q. 

Leaderships always kills us when the heat is on. 

That said TMac showed his real leadership qualities in full. 

Jones played his usual game against a good opposition, Viey was like a kitten running on 2 Cylinders...

 

[Macca 16,972]

We got beaten by a far superior team on the day ... Collingwood's best is as good as any of the better teams except they often don't play at their best.  But that's their problem,  not ours. 

Our issue is that we're a 12-14 win team which means we're a team that is almost certainly going to lose 8-10 games.  Or perhaps only 7 losses but definitely not more than 10 losses.  That is how good we are. 

We lost the game because we got smashed at the clearances and the opposition were able to use the ball exceptionally well once they won the ball at the contest. 

But some teams can win the ball well and then not use it very well so the clearance numbers don't often tell the true story.  But Collingwood do use the ball well when they are on.  So do we but it's impossible to play possession football if you don't have the ball. 

We can play a lot better and we will play a lot better ... we're just not that good a side where we can do it all the time. 

We have to win the clearances by a good number in order to give ourselves a chance against the better teams ... we came up way short yesterday but we live to fight another day.  Our defence was under siege yesterday so there's no point pointing the finger in that direction. 

[Willmoy1947 4,090]

I saw a whole pile of empty brown paper bags in the rubbish bins of the Umpire's change rooms. One for each qtr apparently.

Glad in many ways the pies "cheated" this game in. This is not the Last Game and they are the team to beat, no pressure.......... 

[dazzledavey36 54,947]

Still filthy we gave up Dunn so easily. We needed backline general and just controlled their backline so well and took Hogan to the cleaners. And still playing great footy too!

[Willmoy1947 4,090]

At centre bounces  everyone of Melbourne's players in the centre were either being held, obstructed or pushed away......... 

[drdrake 3,178]

4 minutes ago, willmoy said:

At centre bounces  everyone of Melbourne's players in the centre were either being held, obstructed or pushed away......... 

Agree with this, and we went to ground way to easy.  I know Collingwood had little pressure on them, but they kept their feet, we constantly went to ground and throw out hail Mary handpasses 

[hemingway 7,627]

12 minutes ago, willmoy said:

At centre bounces  everyone of Melbourne's players in the centre were either being held, obstructed or pushed away......... 

Agreed, the Pies were very adept at taking our players out of the contest and when the ball was loose, you would see at least 1 or 2 pie players shepherding a Demon away from the ball particularly in the air. 

Must be a strong priority in training drills because they were very slick and avoided giving away frees.  

[Deemania since 56 6,640]

21 hours ago, Jibroni said:

Feels as bad as Rd 23 last year, [censored] don't we learn!!!!!!!!!!!

Very little to be pleased with apart from the crowd, feels for those that went.

Another 19 hours on the road driving to Melbourne for the match and return. For nothing, other than to watch the wheels fall off and the experience within the team fail once again to steer the game. Umpires did their bit to set up the confidence of the Filth but this time they kept it going all match. It was over, as a game, by the 20 min mark of the first quarter - the best that the MFC could do was to stay in dangerously protected touch for a short while, afterward, lacking players prepared to win the ball, move to the ball, look up for opportunity. Less than a handful played well with determination; their work ethic was wasted by potential receivers. The Filth were too tall and mobile ALL OVER THE GROUND and showed a far greater intent all game. My top 5 MFC players:

• TMAc
• HIbberd
• Hannan
• Spargo
• Pedersen

ANB and Clarrie severely negated or tagged; Jones ran around in circles; Viney needs a few more weeks of game preparation and readiness; Jordan was very ineffective; Vince could have done much more; JSmith showed glimpses but match conditioning has not yet kicked in; Jetta was good; Frosty was needed (height, mobility, leap, carry, toughness); Oscar had a form drop; overall, too many passengers and onlookers, not enough protection and space.

[Deemania since 56 6,640]

46 minutes ago, hemingway said:

Must be a strong priority in training drills because they were very slick and avoided giving away frees. 

The Filth were slick with this tactic but the umpires turned a blind eye to the unlawful acts across the whole game. Spectators were appalled by these deliberate oversights from the whistle men. Pathetic. 

[Deemania since 56 6,640]

3 hours ago, willmoy said:

I saw a whole pile of empty brown paper bags in the rubbish bins of the Umpire's change rooms. One for each qtr apparently.

We laugh at the 'brown paper bag filled with money' syndrome but it was repeatedly obvious that the major reason we lost the the game was the result of umpiring decisions when we were clearly in ascendancy or in attack. As Robt Walls said, 'Melbourne are playing the better football but it is being interrupted...', and this was allowed to take place by the umpires' decision-making. There is something corrupt in the AFL umpiring system - something of which we are not privvy.

[bing181 9,240]

14 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

That's rubbish he was good at half back due to Roos moving him there.

He left he was a free agent wasn't he nothing we could do.

Yes. And he left because he didn't want to play in the back line, but be a star forward - which is why he was recruited at the Pies. It's only when that didn't work out (again) that he was moved back.

[Buffalo 203]

2 hours ago, willmoy said:

At centre bounces  everyone of Melbourne's players in the centre were either being held, obstructed or pushed away......... 

I think Collingwood took their cue from the Bulldogs efforts the previous week. In both games, the Dees were woeful with clearances, getting absolutely smashed...perhaps Goody, and our strategist extraordinaire Craig Jennings should have picked up on this....

[bing181 9,240]

12 minutes ago, Buffalo said:

...perhaps Goody, and our strategist extraordinaire Craig Jennings should have picked up on this....

... perhaps our players should have picked up on this ...

[Young Blood 2,620]

2 hours ago, willmoy said:

At centre bounces  everyone of Melbourne's players in the centre were either being held, obstructed or pushed away......... 

Yup we were beaten around the ball due to Collingwoods positioning and body use. So many times I saw their players shepherding the ground ball for one of their best mids to swoop in and more the ball on quickly. They  held, obstructed and pushed away so effectively like the best teams do and we weren't able to counter it.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Yung Blood

[monoccular 17,431]

19 hours ago, Brisbanedemonfan said:

I don't think we should have played 3 tall forwards with Pedersen, 2 talls 4 small forwards worked well for us the past 6 weeks. 

As a utility, could Pedersen be reinvented as a defender? He can take a strong mark and has the size to outwork opposition defenders, so why not make the opposite switch of TMac?  

Melksham didn't look his best - injury from last week niggling him? 

Lewis had no run and didn't lay a single tackle.

Oscars game today reminded me of the Oscar of previous years. 

As we all know we got smashed in the middle. Whenever Gawn tapped the ball down, we'd pick it up only to be tackled, or to handball it out to a waiting Collingwood player. We needed to spread more and Gawn needed to thump the ball out of the middle more as I've seen him do before - the straight down the throat tap worked to Collingwoods advantage almost every time.  

Thing that killed us most was speed. We'd get the ball, shank a kick, and it would be inside 50 before you could blink. 

I think OMac, Lewis, Melksham dropped, with Peders for Oscar, Hunt for Lewis and Garlett for Melksham. Room should be made for Tyson to come back into the side, maybe Petracca? 

If a Pedersen move to defence won't work maybe blooding Petty instead. 

I think that Pedersen doesn't work in the third tall forward rotation with Hogan and Tommy in the effective way that Weideman and later Bull Smith played.   (Heaven forbid but were we too be without Tommy or Jesse he could play a fill in role there). Not so sure about reinvention as a defender - may prefer to try Petty early.

I feel that you are being very harsh on Oscar, who hasn't been beaten all year and now you want to drop him because he was 'beaten' by a freakish giant who was the beneficiary of pressureless delivery from up field.

Agree re the lack of leg speed, but dropping Melksham who has been (until yesterday) one of our most skilled half forwards won't be the answer.   Nobody is going to have a flawless season - should anyone who has one bad game be dropped?  So much for stability.

 

16 hours ago, GM11 said:

Always  been intrigued  by Howe.

Couldn't get a kick at half back for us.

Just happens to  run into Bucks in  Bali of all places.

Gets to where he  wants to go &  now he's a champ. Of half back. Find it interesting to say the least.

Howe, by the time he was tried by Roos at half back, had already lost interest and checked out.

Edited June 12, 2018 by monoccular

[Gator 17,361]

Pedersen was his typical ineffectual self as a key forward.

I'd play Weideman ahead of him every day of the week.  Taller and far more athletic.

[Lucifers Hero 39,819]

16 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

That's rubbish he was good at half back due to Roos moving him there.

He left he was a free agent wasn't he nothing we could do.

Howe was not a free agent.  The club wanted to trade him out.  He was headed to GCS in a deal that would give us the pick to get Oliver.  At the time their were no other takers for him.  Howe put a spanner in the works late in the piece when he met Buckley in Bali.  He was traded to Pies in a multi club deal. 

Fortunately we were able to package up other picks to trade with GCS to still get the pick needed for Oliver.

But lets be clear the club wanted to trade Howe out.  He end up at Collingwood.  May they both be happy ever after!

Edit:  MFC position on Howe to GCS https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/afl-trade-period-2015-jeremy-howe-accepts-offer-to-join-collingwood-20151015-gk9zoo.html

Edited June 12, 2018 by Lucifer's Hero

[SFebes 4,884]

1 minute ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Howe was not a free agent.  The club wanted to trade him out.  He was headed to GCS in a deal that would give us the pick to get Oliver.  At the time their were no other takers for him.  Howe put a spanner in the works late in the piece when he met Buckley in Bali.  He was traded to Pies in a multi club deal. 

Fortunately we were able to package up other picks to trade with GCS to still get the pick needed for Oliver.

But lets be clear the club wanted to trade Howe out.  He end up at Collingwood.  May they both be happy ever after!

I think Jeremy wanted to leave to play forward and to play finals? My memory may be incorrect though

[deelete my account 1,194]

5 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Still filthy we gave up Dunn so easily. We needed backline general and just controlled their backline so well and took Hogan to the cleaners. And still playing great footy too!

Would we have matched anything they offered though?

[deelete my account 1,194]

5 hours ago, willmoy said:

I saw a whole pile of empty brown paper bags in the rubbish bins of the Umpire's change rooms. One for each qtr apparently.

Glad in many ways the pies "cheated" this game in. This is not the Last Game and they are the team to beat, no pressure.......... 

On the contrary, i thought we were only in it at quarter time due to some lucky free kicks.

[Lucifers Hero 39,819]

12 minutes ago, SFebey said:

I think Jeremy wanted to leave to play forward and to play finals? My memory may be incorrect though

TBH I think that was Howe's way of saving face based on the 'promise' Buckley made to him in Bali. 

In reality, Howe asked for mega dollars which the club baulked at https://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/melbourne-demons/jeremy-howe-says-he-wants-to-sign-new-contract-to-stay-at-melbourne/news-story/cd5153cee6910364b6c66a49bfabfbf1

He and his manager then played ducks and drakes with the club.  They turn down club offer.  Club draws a line in the sand and decides to move him on. 

Howe has few options and is off to GCS (see my edit in above post).  Pies throw him a lifeline and he goes there for less money. https://www.sen.com.au/news/2016/06/25/jeremy-howe-confirms-hes-at-pies-for-less/

Anyway, he didn't help them much yesterday and we are better off without him.

Edited June 12, 2018 by Lucifer's Hero

[hemingway 7,627]

2 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

The Filth were slick with this tactic but the umpires turned a blind eye to the unlawful acts across the whole game. Spectators were appalled by these deliberate oversights from the whistle men. Pathetic. 

It did seem that the umps had been given instructions to call play on at every opportunity. 

[Lucifers Hero 39,819]

Lewis's take on why we the lost:  http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2018-06-12/losses-provide-chance-to-learn-lewis

“They blocked up the corridor which forced us down the line a lot.”

“They isolated their forwards, (Mason) Cox had a really good day and a few of their other forwards pitched in as well, so it wasn’t a great day defensively from us,”

“They were dominant around the midfield, our defenders were out of play and our forwards were out of play, so there’s learnings to come from every line.”

Yep, a lot to learn from yesterday.  While its a damn shame we couldn't adjust for any of that during the game we can be confident that a plan will be put in place for next time it happens, I hope. 

[SFebes 4,884]

1 minute ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Lewis's take on why we the lost:  http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/2018-06-12/losses-provide-chance-to-learn-lewis

“They blocked up the corridor which forced us down the line a lot.”

“They isolated their forwards, (Mason) Cox had a really good day and a few of their other forwards pitched in as well, so it wasn’t a great day defensively from us,”

“They were dominant around the midfield, our defenders were out of play and our forwards were out of play, so there’s learnings to come from every line.”

Yep, a lot to learn from yesterday.  While its a damn shame we couldn't adjust for any of that during the game we can be confident that a plan will be put in place for next time it happens, I hope. 

That's the crux of my issues with yesterday, good teams respond. Anyway, a rest needed and a big half of year coming.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,396]

In order to impose manic pressure or pressure of any kind onto the opposition you actually have to be standing next to your opponent. We need to stop this garbage of guarding space and corralling (in some cases standing 5-10 metres from our opponents) and play directly on them. This is also beneficial if your opponent is quicker than you, your opponent doesn’t have a head start on you and you’re more likely to pressure their disposal/marking the ball. If your opponent moves, move with him. Hawthorn/Richmond and now Collingwood were all able to move the ball from one end of the ground to the other not only without us touching it but almost unoposed. When teams are kicking in from a behind we seem to conceed the first kick,  (normally to deep in the pocket) then at times the second kick (somewhere around the 50). Both these kicks are being taken uncontested because our players are too busy guarding an irrelevant space. From here teams can do one of two things, continue to kick to free teammates as we still guard space and work their way up the ground or outwork and outrun us and create the overlap, handball receive then run and carry then a kick inside 50. Yesterday was a combination of both for Collingwood. One thing we’ve been good at doing this year is taking a mark inside 50 then turning quickly and kicking to a teammate in a better position. For some reason we failed to defend against this yesterday. We know we’re not the quickest, we pride ourselves on contested possession so let’s make every possession by the opposition accountable. (Guard space when the opposition has marked and is kicking inside 50, put a man front and centre of the goals, and where the keys forwards are going to lead to)

Our tackling let us down again, even in the previous games we’ve won this season it’s been an issue. On most occasions one player should be able to tackle the player with the ball. When we tackle we allow the ball carrier to off load a handball. At times yesterday we had 2 and 3 players tackling the ball carrier and he still managed to get a handball off and away they went. 

The suggestions that Lever’s absence was a large contributing factor to the back lines pantsing and the loss as a whole are comical.  

Hogan had a bad day, it happens, but can he stop playing for frees and stop throwing his hands in the air while the opposition runs off with the ball. Lead by example. 

Can we now all acknowledge that TMac is Neita MARK2. Feel free to rotate Hogan and “inset name” but can we just leave him planted in the goal square for the remainder of the season. He is by far our best contested mark and set shot for goal in the team. Leaving him there was the best thing Goodwin did.

Petracca needs to be dropped, if it was good enough for Watts, enough said.

Poor decision making across the board, kicking to 1 on 2 or 2 on 3. Players running inside 50 from the centre square and kicking to an outnumbered fwd. Take ownership, be accountable and kick the goal. 

The Pies worked harder than us and wanted it more, they hunted in numbers and put us away with ease. On paper we had them covered but it was evident we were rattled from the first bounce. 100 point drubbings of lower placed sides clearly count for nothing, when we are challenged in big games and there’s something to play for we continue to choke. No this doesn’t mark the end of the season but this does raise a number of questions, some of them reoccurring ones. As posted earlier, it’s not that we lost, it’s the way we lost. If they kicked straight we could of been down by 8 goals at qtr time.