Islam in the West

[Gator 17,449]

There needs to be a mature conversation not the shutting down of debate.

Many Muslims went to the West for a better life and most have if not fully assimilated they've blended in.  Imam Tawhidi doesn't think "blending in" is good enough, but it will do me, as the alternative doesn't overly thrill me. 

Unfortunately though, radical Islam is spreading throughout Europe and America.  In this short clip Raheem Kassam, who grew up in a Muslim family, points to the dangers of the many Saudi funded Mosques that are spreading throughout the world.  It's where the radicalisation starts.

I'm interested in peoples views once they've heard him speak.  He correctly points out that he's considered the problem, because he wants to have a conversation about the looming threat of Islamism.  He's more of a problem than the actual issue.  I know how he feels.

 

And yes, he's from Breitbart London and yes Katie Hopkins is on stage too.  Cue melts.

I'm more interested in your views on his content than his organisation, or who he's sitting with.  So can you address what he's saying, or can you only try and smear him personally and his organisation ?

As I said, there needs to be a mature conversation about Islam in the West. 

Let's keep this thread civil and without any abuse.

 

[Jara 1,153]

Im out with daughter and friends this arvo but when I get home I'll be starting up a new topic  (my first ☺)

 

It will be called The rise and fall and rise again of Racism in the West.

 

Let's keep it civil and mature.

[Jara 1,153]

OK, home now. Decided to maintain my perfect record of no new threads. Just a quick reply here.

 

Read a beautiful article in today’s Age by Arnold Zable (Rising to fight the far right) , which recounted very moving incidents of courage, love and self-sacrifice in the Holocaust.

 

Then I glanced at Demonland and saw Pro’s new topic and I groaned. I’d hoped we were finished with all this. And I asked myself how did Goebbels and the Der Sturmer crew whip up such hatred in the 1930s?

 

By trawling though the events of their day – Depression, War, unemployment – and finding hateful things to say about a particular minority group.

 

This is exactly what Pro does. He scans the Net looking for anything which will caste Muslims in a bad light and sticks it here. He gives us a constant barrage of stories about rape, murder, creeping Sharia law.  All on a football website which is available to kids.

 

How do you counter such stuff?

 

Only way I can think of is to post more positive stories.

 

I’ll try one.

 

For quite a few years now I’ve worked in International education, and for various reasons found myself working with Saudis, especially women. They usually wear the niqab. In their own society, these women are ground breakers: in coming to the west, they have shown great courage. When they get back home, they are the ones pushing for a more pluralist society: to be allowed to drive, stand for government. When they first arrive here, they are so keen and curious to learn about Australia. They tend to be very nice, very shy and not at all political. And yet, often within a few weeks, they start to notice the hostility. I’ve had students who’ve been spat at, who’ve had their veils pulled off. 

 

And I ask myself, where does this hostility come from? Why do we denigrate their otherness rather than praise their achievements?

 

Sure, Islamic terrorism has a lot to do with it, but so does the negativity whipped up by the kind of Youtube clips posted here.

 

To the mods, I’d ask:  would you support this kind of cherry-picking – hmmm - maybe not the right adjective – more turd-picking - racism if it was directed against Jews, or blacks (believe me, it’s out there, and just as easy to find)?

 

I’ll try to finish on a positive note. Had a lovely young student come back a see me a while ago – I’d taught her when she’d just arrived, and she’d gone on to do undergraduate Biomedicine. She was so excited, wanted to let me know she’d been accepted into Medicine. I asked what her plans were, kind of assuming she’d be staying in Australia and getting rich, but she said she was going to go back to her own country, because there was a crying need for female doctors. Her country was Afghanistan

 

Try to remember these little vignettes when you’re looking at the bovver-boy film-clips I fear Pro is busting to deluge us with. 

[dieter 3,325]

53 minutes ago, Jara said:

OK, home now. Decided to maintain my perfect record of no new threads. Just a quick reply here.

 

Read a beautiful article in today’s Age by Arnold Zable (Rising to fight the far right) , which recounted very moving incidents of courage, love and self-sacrifice in the Holocaust.

 

Then I glanced at Demonland and saw Pro’s new topic and I groaned. I’d hoped we were finished with all this. And I asked myself how did Goebbels and the Der Sturmer crew whip up such hatred in the 1930s?

 

By trawling though the events of their day – Depression, War, unemployment – and finding hateful things to say about a particular minority group.

 

This is exactly what Pro does. He scans the Net looking for anything which will caste Muslims in a bad light and sticks it here. He gives us a constant barrage of stories about rape, murder, creeping Sharia law.  All on a football website which is available to kids.

 

How do you counter such stuff?

 

Only way I can think of is to post more positive stories.

 

I’ll try one.

 

For quite a few years now I’ve worked in International education, and for various reasons found myself working with Saudis, especially women. They usually wear the niqab. In their own society, these women are ground breakers: in coming to the west, they have shown great courage. When they get back home, they are the ones pushing for a more pluralist society: to be allowed to drive, stand for government. When they first arrive here, they are so keen and curious to learn about Australia. They tend to be very nice, very shy and not at all political. And yet, often within a few weeks, they start to notice the hostility. I’ve had students who’ve been spat at, who’ve had their veils pulled off. 

 

And I ask myself, where does this hostility come from? Why do we denigrate their otherness rather than praise their achievements?

 

Sure, Islamic terrorism has a lot to do with it, but so does the negativity whipped up by the kind of Youtube clips posted here.

 

To the mods, I’d ask:  would you support this kind of cherry-picking – hmmm - maybe not the right adjective – more turd-picking - racism if it was directed against Jews, or blacks (believe me, it’s out there, and just as easy to find)?

 

I’ll try to finish on a positive note. Had a lovely young student come back a see me a while ago – I’d taught her when she’d just arrived, and she’d gone on to do undergraduate Biomedicine. She was so excited, wanted to let me know she’d been accepted into Medicine. I asked what her plans were, kind of assuming she’d be staying in Australia and getting rich, but she said she was going to go back to her own country, because there was a crying need for female doctors. Her country was Afghanistan

 

Try to remember these little vignettes when you’re looking at the bovver-boy film-clips I fear Pro is busting to deluge us with. 

 

Beautiful stuff, Jara. God bless you. I too read the Zable article and will contact him to tell him how moved I was.

In a nutshell, Jara, this vile anti-Muslim stuff is the new anti-Semitism. There is implicit irony in this  which a read of Koestler's The 13th Tribe and Shlomo Sand's book point out, but, as we see on this site, one can write or say - Hanson, Lambie - any ill-conceived  uneducated bullshite about Muslims and get away with it.

The great irony about PD's post is that the greatest spreader of Muslim Terrorism in the world is Saudi Arabia via its Wahhabi extremism.

And what do you know? Who is ISIS and the USA in bed with in the Middle East, aside from Israel, yes, precisely Saudi Arabia which as we speak is raping Yemen with ordinance supplied by the USA.

Edited May 26, 2018 by dieter

[Gator 17,449]

16 hours ago, Jara said:

OK, home now. Decided to maintain my perfect record of no new threads. Just a quick reply here.

 

Read a beautiful article in today’s Age by Arnold Zable (Rising to fight the far right) , which recounted very moving incidents of courage, love and self-sacrifice in the Holocaust.

 

Then I glanced at Demonland and saw Pro’s new topic and I groaned. I’d hoped we were finished with all this. And I asked myself how did Goebbels and the Der Sturmer crew whip up such hatred in the 1930s?

 

By trawling though the events of their day – Depression, War, unemployment – and finding hateful things to say about a particular minority group.

 

This is exactly what Pro does. He scans the Net looking for anything which will caste Muslims in a bad light and sticks it here. He gives us a constant barrage of stories about rape, murder, creeping Sharia law.  All on a football website which is available to kids.

 

How do you counter such stuff?

 

Only way I can think of is to post more positive stories.

 

I’ll try one.

 

For quite a few years now I’ve worked in International education, and for various reasons found myself working with Saudis, especially women. They usually wear the niqab. In their own society, these women are ground breakers: in coming to the west, they have shown great courage. When they get back home, they are the ones pushing for a more pluralist society: to be allowed to drive, stand for government. When they first arrive here, they are so keen and curious to learn about Australia. They tend to be very nice, very shy and not at all political. And yet, often within a few weeks, they start to notice the hostility. I’ve had students who’ve been spat at, who’ve had their veils pulled off. 

 

And I ask myself, where does this hostility come from? Why do we denigrate their otherness rather than praise their achievements?

 

Sure, Islamic terrorism has a lot to do with it, but so does the negativity whipped up by the kind of Youtube clips posted here.

 

To the mods, I’d ask:  would you support this kind of cherry-picking – hmmm - maybe not the right adjective – more turd-picking - racism if it was directed against Jews, or blacks (believe me, it’s out there, and just as easy to find)?

 

I’ll try to finish on a positive note. Had a lovely young student come back a see me a while ago – I’d taught her when she’d just arrived, and she’d gone on to do undergraduate Biomedicine. She was so excited, wanted to let me know she’d been accepted into Medicine. I asked what her plans were, kind of assuming she’d be staying in Australia and getting rich, but she said she was going to go back to her own country, because there was a crying need for female doctors. Her country was Afghanistan

 

Try to remember these little vignettes when you’re looking at the bovver-boy film-clips I fear Pro is busting to deluge us with. 

 

So many words yet not one addresses the real issues.

Firstly, being anti Islamism has nothing to do with race.  And secondly, there are many Muslims, who have grave concerns about the spread of Islamism.  Why do you think many Muslims fear Islam and the intent of many ?

I can only assume you've never studied the Qur'an, or are remotely familiar with Islam.

Answer me this.  How do you think Islam treats women and gays ?  I'm looking forward to a detailed response.

"No-one is more hated than he who speaks the truth."  Plato

[Biffen 12,946]

Islam doesn't belong in Western society.

The stated aim of Islam is to overtake all parts of the globe.

We have had the battle since the 11th century.

Judeo- Christian civilisation must defend against a creed that wants to kill it.

Those defending it have no knowledge of history. 

[dieter 3,325]

1 hour ago, Biffen said:

Islam doesn't belong in Western society.

The stated aim of Islam is to overtake all parts of the globe.

We have had the battle since the 11th century.

Judeo- Christian civilisation must defend against a creed that wants to kill it.

Those defending it have no knowledge of history. 

Bin wondering where you bin, Osama. Obviously haven't learnt anything new since you've been Chateau Incognito. At least I can spar with you and not fear for my jugular, let alone my 'excellent reputation."

Edited May 27, 2018 by dieter
spelling

[Biffen 12,946]

Also-a moderate Muslim is someone that wants an extremist Muslim to kill you.

All Islam tends to extremism because it believes in violence to achieve it's aims.

i tire of ignorant westerners labelling others "ignorant" when they have not read the texts.

[dieter 3,325]

2 hours ago, Biffen said:

Also-a moderate Muslim is someone that wants an extremist Muslim to kill you.

All Islam tends to extremism because it believes in violence to achieve it's aims.

i tire of ignorant westerners labelling others "ignorant" when they have not read the texts.

Blah blah blah Biffen.

[Phadraig 760]

Large majorities of Muslims favor Sharia.  Among those who do, stoning women for adultery is favored by 89% in Pakistanis, 85% in Afghanistan, 81% in Egypt, 67% in Jordan, ~50% in 'moderate' Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand, 58% in Iraq, 44% in Tunisia, 29% in Turkey, and 26% in Russia.
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/Muslim/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf

31% of younger British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified compared to 14% of those over 45.
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living%20apart%20together%20-%20jan%2007.pdf

55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah
30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah
45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative)
43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

NOP Research: Hardcore Islamists comprise 9% of Britain's Muslim population;
Another 29% would "aggressively defend" Islam;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06

 

Policy Exchange: 61% of British Muslims want homosexuality punished
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

77% of Egyptian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
58% of Jordanian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
36% of Indonesian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
82% of Pakistanis favor floggings and amputation
65% of Nigerian Muslims favor floggings and amputation
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

 

1 in 5 young British Muslims agree that 'honor' violence is acceptable.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117003/More-thirds-young-British-Muslims-believe-honour-violence-acceptable-survey-reveals.html

Pew Global: 68% of Palestinian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
43% of Nigerian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
38% of Lebanese Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
15% of Egyptian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
13% of Indonesian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
12% of Jordanian Muslims say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.
7% of Muslim Israelis say suicide attacks against civilians in defense of Islam are justified.

48% of British muslims would not report a person linked to terror
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2308529/half-british-muslims-would-not-report-is-supporters/

Center for Social Cohesion: One Third of British Muslim students support killing for Islam (Wikileaks cable)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Muslim-students-killing-Islam-40-want-Sharia-law.html

Policy Exchange: One third of British Muslims believe anyone who leaves Islam should be killed
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/ShariaLawOrOneLawForAll.pdf

NOP Research: 78% of British Muslims support punishing the publishers of Muhammad cartoons;
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06

16% of french muslims support ISIS (27% between the ages of 18 - 24)

http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795
 

There are more British muslims fighting for ISIS than their own armed forces
https://www.rferl.org/a/foreign-fighters-syria-iraq-is-isis-isil-infographic/26584940.html

How can these stats not worry people?

Edited May 28, 2018 by Rafiki

[DEE fence 5,039]

On 5/26/2018 at 11:50 AM, ProDee said:

As I said, there needs to be a mature conversation about Islam in the West. 

The first thing we need in that mature conversation is an acknowledgment that just like Christianity, Islam has its' nutty sects like Wahhabism and Salafism, and that it is not prima facie, Islam, that is the problem, just extremists of any group, or disenfranchised young men with nothing to do or looking for a redemption narrative.

Nothing that has been perpetuated by Dersh or Boko Haram is new, everything has a precedent in Christianity, including the rapes and other disgusting acts. But just like with all the other major religions, this vile threat comes from particular sects and not the religion itself practised by 90%+ of adherents. 

Culture can die, nothing sacred about culture, it used to be Australian culture that you could beat your wife with a rod, now you go to jail for that 5hit, I am very happy about that. I am quite happy for a large number of cultural practises to die, and the hypocrisy of the USA supporting the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, when and while it is exporting these vile cultures through madrassas is profound. So lets whack the true culprits - the exponents of mysogynistic cultures, and stop stereotyping a'la Biffen, a whole religion. I take extreme offence at the way a huge number of friends and acquaintances are characterized when the word Islam is used. 

As a 20+ year security professional I see all these terror/islam issues as related to local policing issues, a failure to engage with youth, it is not as sexy as new guns and legislation and task forces (which all deal with symptoms) for politicians, but the old 'Police Boys Club' type of engagement is the single best anti-terror weapon. In the UK which has seen a rise in these attacks - guess what type of facilities have been closed over the last 5-10 years. Same with Paris, the cops gave up on certain areas. But it is not only tough love and the occasional thick ear that is required. Cops who can't walk the beat and talk to kids, and get out from behind their mirrored sunglasses are failing at their job, they have to be part of a solution that engages with every subset of society, even the really repugnant ones (like the Biffen chinless mouth breathers hyperventilating over fake news). This is not all on the cops, but certainly part of it.

[DEE fence 5,039]

@Rafiki

Hate speech anywhere worries me, I need a little time to work through your references, Civitas I take more seriously than the Sun obviously. But I really worry that all the messaging focusing on Muslims, as 'the other' helps drives alot of the stats quoted. Also let me be clear I have total sympathy for the French Government finding and killing its own citizens who are fighting for Isis on battlefields in the Middle East, I have none for breaking the rule of law anywhere by anyone outside of a battlefield. I also think indiscriminate air campaigns “At least 484 civilians have been unintentionally killed by coalition strikes,” the United States Central Command, or Centcom, the military command responsible for the Middle East, said in a June 2 statement.' do much to foster hate and resentment. I am very proud of the Australian RAAF officers who were decorated for their role in verifying targets for arial attack and denying approval for attacks despite much pressure to do so and later being found to be correct. My point being is that reaction and opinion cannot be taken in isolation to all the events that are going on. We owe it to ourselves to interrogate the media always and thoroughly (God bless media watch). 

[Gator 17,449]

33 minutes ago, DaisyDeeciple said:

The first thing we need in that mature conversation is an acknowledgment that just like Christianity, Islam has its' nutty sects like Wahhabism and Salafism, and that it is not prima facie, Islam, that is the problem, just extremists of any group, or disenfranchised young men with nothing to do or looking for a redemption narrative.

Nothing that has been perpetuated by Dersh or Boko Haram is new, everything has a precedent in Christianity, including the rapes and other disgusting acts. But just like with all the other major religions, this vile threat comes from particular sects and not the religion itself practised by 90%+ of adherents. 

Culture can die, nothing sacred about culture, it used to be Australian culture that you could beat your wife with a rod, now you go to jail for that 5hit, I am very happy about that. I am quite happy for a large number of cultural practises to die, and the hypocrisy of the USA supporting the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, when and while it is exporting these vile cultures through madrassas is profound. So lets whack the true culprits - the exponents of mysogynistic cultures, and stop stereotyping a'la Biffen, a whole religion. I take extreme offence at the way a huge number of friends and acquaintances are characterized when the word Islam is used. 

As a 20+ year security professional I see all these terror/islam issues as related to local policing issues, a failure to engage with youth, it is not as sexy as new guns and legislation and task forces (which all deal with symptoms) for politicians, but the old 'Police Boys Club' type of engagement is the single best anti-terror weapon. In the UK which has seen a rise in these attacks - guess what type of facilities have been closed over the last 5-10 years. Same with Paris, the cops gave up on certain areas. But it is not only tough love and the occasional thick ear that is required. Cops who can't walk the beat and talk to kids, and get out from behind their mirrored sunglasses are failing at their job, they have to be part of a solution that engages with every subset of society, even the really repugnant ones (like the Biffen chinless mouth breathers hyperventilating over fake news). This is not all on the cops, but certainly part of it.

Thanks for your considered response, but as Rafiki succinctly highlights in the post above yours I don't think you're realise the extent of the issue within Islam and the Middle East. 

Have you heard of the Muslim Brotherhood's "An Explanatory Memorandum: From the Archives of the Muslim Brotherhood in America" ?  It is telling.  And if you haven't I suggest you google it.  It was written in 1991 and presented as evidence in a USA court case.  

I'll share this snippet: From the Explanatory Memorandum– the Muslim Brotherhood in America in its own words: “The process of settlement is a ‘Civilization-Jihadist Process’ with all the word means. The Ikhwan [Muslim Brotherhood] must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.”

In a broader sense...

There are two main issues for Islam, which are difficult to solve.  Firstly, the Qur'an cannot be modernised, as every word is supposed to be that of Allah (and there are unambiguous issues with much of the text).  And secondly, unlike Christianity, there's no head figure, or anything like the papacy within Islam providing direction.  

The radicalisation starts in the mosques, which is also problematic.  

[dieter 3,325]

1 hour ago, DaisyDeeciple said:

The first thing we need in that mature conversation is an acknowledgment that just like Christianity, Islam has its' nutty sects like Wahhabism and Salafism, and that it is not prima facie, Islam, that is the problem, just extremists of any group, or disenfranchised young men with nothing to do or looking for a redemption narrative.

Nothing that has been perpetuated by Dersh or Boko Haram is new, everything has a precedent in Christianity, including the rapes and other disgusting acts. But just like with all the other major religions, this vile threat comes from particular sects and not the religion itself practised by 90%+ of adherents. 

Culture can die, nothing sacred about culture, it used to be Australian culture that you could beat your wife with a rod, now you go to jail for that 5hit, I am very happy about that. I am quite happy for a large number of cultural practises to die, and the hypocrisy of the USA supporting the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, when and while it is exporting these vile cultures through madrassas is profound. So lets whack the true culprits - the exponents of mysogynistic cultures, and stop stereotyping a'la Biffen, a whole religion. I take extreme offence at the way a huge number of friends and acquaintances are characterized when the word Islam is used. 

As a 20+ year security professional I see all these terror/islam issues as related to local policing issues, a failure to engage with youth, it is not as sexy as new guns and legislation and task forces (which all deal with symptoms) for politicians, but the old 'Police Boys Club' type of engagement is the single best anti-terror weapon. In the UK which has seen a rise in these attacks - guess what type of facilities have been closed over the last 5-10 years. Same with Paris, the cops gave up on certain areas. But it is not only tough love and the occasional thick ear that is required. Cops who can't walk the beat and talk to kids, and get out from behind their mirrored sunglasses are failing at their job, they have to be part of a solution that engages with every subset of society, even the really repugnant ones (like the Biffen chinless mouth breathers hyperventilating over fake news). This is not all on the cops, but certainly part of it.

Wonderful reply.

[dieter 3,325]

1 hour ago, DaisyDeeciple said:

The first thing we need in that mature conversation is an acknowledgment that just like Christianity, Islam has its' nutty sects like Wahhabism and Salafism, and that it is not prima facie, Islam, that is the problem, just extremists of any group, or disenfranchised young men with nothing to do or looking for a redemption narrative.

Nothing that has been perpetuated by Dersh or Boko Haram is new, everything has a precedent in Christianity, including the rapes and other disgusting acts. But just like with all the other major religions, this vile threat comes from particular sects and not the religion itself practised by 90%+ of adherents. 

Culture can die, nothing sacred about culture, it used to be Australian culture that you could beat your wife with a rod, now you go to jail for that 5hit, I am very happy about that. I am quite happy for a large number of cultural practises to die, and the hypocrisy of the USA supporting the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, when and while it is exporting these vile cultures through madrassas is profound. So lets whack the true culprits - the exponents of mysogynistic cultures, and stop stereotyping a'la Biffen, a whole religion. I take extreme offence at the way a huge number of friends and acquaintances are characterized when the word Islam is used. 

As a 20+ year security professional I see all these terror/islam issues as related to local policing issues, a failure to engage with youth, it is not as sexy as new guns and legislation and task forces (which all deal with symptoms) for politicians, but the old 'Police Boys Club' type of engagement is the single best anti-terror weapon. In the UK which has seen a rise in these attacks - guess what type of facilities have been closed over the last 5-10 years. Same with Paris, the cops gave up on certain areas. But it is not only tough love and the occasional thick ear that is required. Cops who can't walk the beat and talk to kids, and get out from behind their mirrored sunglasses are failing at their job, they have to be part of a solution that engages with every subset of society, even the really repugnant ones (like the Biffen chinless mouth breathers hyperventilating over fake news). This is not all on the cops, but certainly part of it.

Good stuff: unfortunately there are way too may bigoted deaf ears on this site, way way too many...I commend you.

[DEE fence 5,039]

30 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Thanks for your considered response, but as Rafiki succinctly highlights in the post above yours I don't think you're realise the extent of the issue within Islam and the Middle East. 

Have you heard of the Muslim Brotherhood's "An Explanatory Memorandum: From the Archives of the Muslim Brotherhood in America" 

Yes-Egypt is where the two sects that i loathe originated. Is interesting that the Muslim Brotherhood also started in a country that has a disgusting human rights record perpetuated by a government supported by the west. I would argue that in many ways the brotherhood was a reaction against the gross breaches of human decency by a pro west military. The brotherhood was just like the fascist movements of the 30's in that it appealed to and also provided support to the poor.

30 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Firstly, the Qur'an cannot be modernised, as every word is supposed to be that of Allah (and there are unambiguous issues with much of the text). 

I agree, there are serious irreconcilable parts of the Qur'an with secular society, that is a real problem, but i have to say, all the Muslims i know, including the devout, are happy to let those parts (such as slavery,) go 

30 minutes ago, ProDee said:

And secondly, unlike Christianity, there's no head figure, or anything like the papacy within Islam providing direction.  

Interesting point have wondered the same thing, but there are clerics actively working to debunk the narratives the crazies come up with. Also clerics/imams like Farid Esack who are as smart as Einstein and working on reform in areas including gender and islam.

30 minutes ago, ProDee said:

The radicalisation starts in the mosques, which is also problematic.  

 

I agree, hence my comment about the Madrassas, i have no time for hate speech anywhere, but not all Mosques are preaching hate.

You will not get an argument from me that there are clearly dangerous evil people running around using Islam as a cover for being unhinged. But for every example of evil craziness, i can come back with an example of love and compassion, including in the areas that seem so scary. Thus am not ready to write off Islam. To me incels are one side of the same coin, (with the wahhabis), lots of scary cultures i want gone so my daughters and wife are safe anywhere.

[Jara 1,153]

On 5/27/2018 at 3:16 PM, Biffen said:

Islam doesn't belong in Western society.

The stated aim of Islam is to overtake all parts of the globe.

We have had the battle since the 11th century.

Judeo- Christian civilisation must defend against a creed that wants to kill it.

Those defending it have no knowledge of history. 

Well said, Biff As usual you  cut to the quick.

There you go, Pro. The answer to your question. Islam and the West?  They don't go together. Never have, never will. Debate over. You got what you wanted.

 

What delights will you be giving us next?  Islam and the rat plague: is there a link? Is Bomber Thompson a secret Muslim? Jack Watts?   Did Muslims crucify Jesus? Sharia law: how long have we got till they take over?

 

All discussed in a polite, mature manner of course.

[Gator 17,449]

1 hour ago, Jara said:

Well said, Biff As usual you  cut to the quick.

There you go, Pro. The answer to your question. Islam and the West?  They don't go together. Never have, never will. Debate over. You got what you wanted.

 

What delights will you be giving us next?  Islam and the rat plague: is there a link? Is Bomber Thompson a secret Muslim? Jack Watts?   Did Muslims crucify Jesus? Sharia law: how long have we got till they take over?

 

All discussed in a polite, mature manner of course.

I'll ask you again...

How do you think Islam treats women and gays ?  I'm looking forward to a detailed response.

While your at it, give me your take on Rafiki's alarming statistics re the beliefs of Muslims in Middle Eastern countries.  We import people with those beliefs.

[Jara 1,153]

43 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I'll ask you again...

How do you think Islam treats women and gays ?  I'm looking forward to a detailed response.

While your at it, give me your take on Rafiki's alarming statistics re the beliefs of Muslims in Middle Eastern countries.  We import people with those beliefs.

No no, no argument from me. You've won me over with your new, mature style and Biff's irrefutable logic. Im with you all the way.

 

All i want to know now is what you're doing to encourage smooth community relationships with the 400000 Muslims who actually live here (mostly born here i believe ) to make it less likely that they acquire those beliefs?  (Im only asking because I've had dozens of Muslim friends and colleagues and never met one who thought gays or those who leave the faith  should be stoned to death) 

[Gator 17,449]

16 hours ago, Jara said:

No no, no argument from me. You've won me over with your new, mature style and Biff's irrefutable logic. Im with you all the way.

 

All i want to know now is what you're doing to encourage smooth community relationships with the 400000 Muslims who actually live here (mostly born here i believe ) to make it less likely that they acquire those beliefs?  (Im only asking because I've had dozens of Muslim friends and colleagues and never met one who thought gays or those who leave the faith  should be stoned to death) 

No disrespect intended, but all you've done is highlight to me that you're utterly ignorant of Islam.  And if you're ignorant of the subject you have no way understanding of the issues.  It would be like me posting on a soccer forum when I have no clue about the game.

Addressing your claim...

I doubt you have "dozens of Muslim friends and colleagues", but if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume there's veracity in your claims then I can assure you they're non practising Muslims.  They're Muslim in name only.  And for that I'm thankful.  

We have westernised Muslims living here and abroad and they pose no real danger (certainly not if they're in a country with a very low percentage of population levels).  But, as stated, they're not practising Islam as authorised by the Qur'an.  There are many non practising Muslims who are ignorant of the Qur'an and hadiths and somewhat shocked when it's explained to them in detail.  If their children start attending Mosques then they'll have offspring who do present a clear danger.

You're what's wrong with the Left, Jara.  You come bounding in here with forceful opinions, but you've got no clue about Islam, the Qur'an, Imams who preach at Mosques, and the agenda of many within our Islamic communities.

It's why they consider the Left "useful idiots".

[Ethan Tremblay 30,962]

Last week marked the 5 year anniversary of the brutal murder of Lee Rigby. RIP Lee. 

[faultydet 7,619]

One of the biggest issues with Islamists is p.c

 

If the p.c sickness didn't engulf western academia/media, and politics, the resolve to preserve great western cultures would never have been surrendered.

The ONLY thing that will ever control the threat of islamists are political figures with the balls to ignore the p.c police, and take every measure to eliminate, or prevent the spread of Islam into their western society.

Poland and Hungary are glowing examples of how a true patriot can keep his country safe. It's a leaders number 1 task, and one that has been given up in Western Europe by the slaves to the E.U's Junker/Tusk etc, and their globalist banker/investor masters.

 

Islam is an ideology, not a religion. And a dangerous one at that.

[DEE fence 5,039]

1 hour ago, faultydet said:

Poland and Hungary are glowing examples of how a true patriot can keep his country safe. It's a leaders number 1 task, and one that has been given up in Western Europe by the slaves to the E.U's Junker/Tusk etc, and their globalist banker/investor masters.

Mods - i wish to delete my reply, there is no point, but i find this really super inflammatory and not helpful.

 

5 hours ago, ProDee said:

I doubt you have "dozens of Muslim friends and colleagues", but if I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume there's veracity in your claims then I can assure you they're non practising Muslims.  They're Muslim in name only. 

How are you possibly the expert on who is an isn't a Muslim? You asked for mature debate, all Jara has said is he sees humans who for the most part are getting along fine and says so. It is important to focus on building everyone's identity as Australian, through things like sport/football. Prosecute the nuts and most of all work with youth to make them feel included and not excluded so they are not disenfranchised and easier targets for radicalization.

Edited May 29, 2018 by DaisyDeeciple
spelling and remove my response to faulty det

[Gator 17,449]

1 hour ago, DaisyDeeciple said:

How are you possibly the expert on who is an isn't a Muslim? You asked for mature debate, all Jara has said is he sees humans who for the most part are getting along fine and says so. It is important to focus on building everyone's identity as Australian, through things like sport/football. Prosecute the nuts and most of all work with youth to make them feel included and not excluded so they are not disenfranchised and easier targets for radicalization.

I'm talking about Islamic adherents in the purest sense.

If someone considers themself a Muslim, but doesn't practice the orthodoxy of the Qur'an then no problem.

You're referencing westernised Muslims, who for the purposes of this discussion I don't consider orthodox Muslims.  There's no ambiguity in Islam.  

The Muslims you're referencing wouldn't attend mosques.  Those that do are not able to befriend the kaffir.  

I've always said that I have no issue with Muslims, because many take out of Islam what they want to in varying degrees.  But I have a massive issue with Islam.  It's insidious and there's NO wriggle room.  It's an all encompassing set of beliefs and laws.  It has complete governance over society.  Study sharia and you'll appreciate Islam and all it holds dear.  It's as much a political ideology as a religion.  

Thankfully, not all Muslims want to live under sharia.  Those that do are a huge concern.

[dieter 3,325]

2 hours ago, DaisyDeeciple said:

Mods - i wish to delete my reply, there is no point, but i find this really super inflammatory and not helpful.

 

How are you possibly the expert on who is an isn't a Muslim? You asked for mature debate, all Jara has said is he sees humans who for the most part are getting along fine and says so. It is important to focus on building everyone's identity as Australian, through things like sport/football. Prosecute the nuts and most of all work with youth to make them feel included and not excluded so they are not disenfranchised and easier targets for radicalization.

Good stuff. I takes me hats off to ya.