17 minutes ago, DubDee said:

no goal sense, poor set shot, didnt know where to lead, didnt stay involved in the game, poor kick to teammates

 

1 hour ago, The Chazz said:

What were the reasons Howe became ineffective as a forward?

My take is more that our team was crap and Howe was too good a talent to waste being starved of supply and that he was moved back by Collingwood for similar reasons.  With our present back six and lack of forward marking power and conversion, I'd be playing Howe as a forward in our team any day of the week.Could take a mark out of nowhere and his set shot conversation rate for shots on goal and feild kicking in general is elite.

Still rate Howe as the best player we lost through free agency and received next to nothing for in return.  

5 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

 

My take is more that our team was crap and Howe was too good a talent to waste being starved of supply and that he was moved back by Collingwood for similar reasons.  With our present back six and lack of forward marking power and conversion, I'd be playing Howe as a forward in our team any day of the week.Could take a mark out of nowhere and his set shot conversation rate for shots on goal and feild kicking in general is elite.

Still rate Howe as the best player we lost through free agency and received next to nothing for in return.  

Howe was a player that was costly for us up forward (or many of the reasons that DubDee listed), then sulked when moved back (which is where he played/s his best football).  Roos moved him on because his attitude wasn't in line with what he was trying to build at Melbourne.

Howe was exciting in his first year or two with us when playing forward.  But as soon as the opposition took away his greatest strength (flying in packs), the rest of his game dropped off, hence the move back.

It's this reason that I'm going to watch with interest the career of Fritsch.  One of his key strengths is his ability to take pack marks.  If the opposition take this away from him, I hope he can develop other areas of his game.  He may, and that will be great.  If he doesn't, he may not make it.

4 hours ago, The Chazz said:

He's not big enough to play KPF, he's taller than a small forward.  He's an inbetweener that is getting on the end of a few, very early in to his career.

He's a newbie that opposition sides don't have as a priority when looking at our match-ups.  If continues his current form, they will absolutely put more time in to him.  How will he cope with extra attention?  How will his ability to fly for marks go when opposition players are blocking him more off the ball?  Will he be able to kick more goals from crumbing as opposed to set shots?  These are the questions that I will have answered in his next 45 games, and I'm sure all start to get answered maybe later this year, but definitely moving in to 2019 and beyond.

I'm enjoying what he is bringing to the team currently, but I'm also mindful that his role is one that good quality backlines can deal with quite easily.

 

My view is diametrically opposed to yours.  He's an incredibly difficult matchup for the opposition, because not only does he have courage in the air, he also has timing.  Put simply, he has real ability in the air, which is a rare commodity.  To complement this aerial ability he has speed, poise, nous and elite kicking skills.

And as he gets stronger with more preseasons he can play an outside wing role Isaac Smith style.  Their physical bios are almost identical.  Although I'm not sure he'll have Smith's tank.  

For me, Fritsch is one of the least likely busts I can think of.

Edited May 1, 20186 yr by ProDee

Howe was a rubbish forward.  Howe is the best one on one mark from behind I've seen, but he never took pack marks in the forward-line, because it's not his trick.  He wasn't creative on the ground and he didn't compete in contests.

He can use his leap from behind over an unsuspecting opponent playing behind the ball, but you don't get those opportunities consistently playing as a forward.  

Howe will never make it as a forward.  He's a behind the ball player which for anyone who's played footy is far far easier.

1 hour ago, The Chazz said:

Howe was a player that was costly for us up forward (or many of the reasons that DubDee listed), then sulked when moved back (which is where he played/s his best football).  Roos moved him on because his attitude wasn't in line with what he was trying to build at Melbourne.

Howe was exciting in his first year or two with us when playing forward.  But as soon as the opposition took away his greatest strength (flying in packs), the rest of his game dropped off, hence the move back.

It's this reason that I'm going to watch with interest the career of Fritsch.  One of his key strengths is his ability to take pack marks.  If the opposition take this away from him, I hope he can develop other areas of his game.  He may, and that will be great.  If he doesn't, he may not make it.

Bailey already shows far more on the ground in terms of pressure,  shepherding, handball, snap and set shots, than Howe.  Not a one trick pony by any means. 

13 hours ago, dee-tox said:

Sorry PetraccaAttack I called this early in 2016!

Show off.

17 hours ago, frankie_d said:

I'm old enough to remember another skinny left footer who took marks like that... Not saying that he's going to be anywhere Tulip, but that mark reminds me of our (IMHO) best ever player...

Off topic, but for those old enough to have seen both Ron Barassi and Robert Flower, who might be considered the better of the two and, in all likelihood, therefore, our best player ever? 

29 minutes ago, monoccular said:

Bailey already shows far more on the ground in terms of pressure,  shepherding, handball, snap and set shots, than Howe.  Not a one trick pony by any means. 

Revisionist BS.  Take a look at Howe's first two full seasons.

All of those things you mentioned were not an issue in his early days.  They started to be when opposition defenders paid him more attention and he started getting frustrated (which led to his shift to the backline).

3 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Off topic, but for those old enough to have seen both Ron Barassi and Robert Flower, who might be considered the better of the two and, in all likelihood, therefore, our best player ever? 

Only ever got to see Barass play as a Blue or Vic rep.  Two very different styles. Ron in effect would set out to impose himself on the game..Tulip just did. Ron purposely placed himself in the thick of it....the 'thick' just gravitated to Robbie..because it had to...or he'd open up an opposition quicker than Lechter.

One outwardly very confident..the other im sure had as much belief but in a different fashion. 

Barass collected more silverware but its arguable he was better supported throughout his career by teams with many champions. Robbie....not as much support ?

Ron the more accomplished of the two I dont think there's an argument there.

Gee..a hard ask to rank them ?

If i can just say Robbie Flower has always been my most favourite of Melbourne players. He epitomized to me what a true champion is.

Ive seen a lot of football over many decades now. Tulip sits aloft in rare air.

Im not sure who's the best Footballer, but to me Robert Flower is/was the best Demon I've ever had the privilege to see...indeed meet.

He was as mild mannered as Clark Kent...but a Superman in Red and Blue. ( Funny really...Superman does wear Red and Blue? )

If only one....Tulip. A very good a nigh impossible question

13 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Only ever got to see Barass play as a Blue or Vic rep.  Two very different styles. Ron in effect would set out to impose himself on the game..Tulip just did. Ron purposely placed himself in the thick of it....the 'thick' just gravitated to Robbie..because it had to...or he'd open up an opposition quicker than Lechter.

One outwardly very confident..the other im sure had as much belief but in a different fashion. 

Barass collected more silverware but its arguable he was better supported throughout his career by teams with many champions. Robbie....not as much support ?

Ron the more accomplished of the two I dont think there's an argument there.

Gee..a hard ask to rank them ?

If i can just say Robbie Flower has always been my most favourite of Melbourne players. He epitomized to me what a true champion is.

Ive seen a lot of football over many decades now. Tulip sits aloft in rare air.

Im not sure who's the best Footballer, but to me Robert Flower is/was the best Demon I've ever had the privilege to see...indeed meet.

He was as mild mannered as Clark Kent...but a Superman in Red and Blue. ( Funny really...Superman does wear Red and Blue? )

If only one....Tulip. A very good a nigh impossible question

I'm old, but not old enough to have seen RDB play. . 

As for Robbie Flower, my favourite player ... by the length of the straight. So skillful, brave, loyal, modest. I think I'm tearing up. (Not really.) RIP great man.

BF reminds me a bit of Gunston. (Jack, not Norman.)

Edited May 1, 20186 yr by bingers

15 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Off topic, but for those old enough to have seen both Ron Barassi and Robert Flower, who might be considered the better of the two and, in all likelihood, therefore, our best player ever? 

Flower. No contest.

15 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Off topic, but for those old enough to have seen both Ron Barassi and Robert Flower, who might be considered the better of the two and, in all likelihood, therefore, our best player ever? 

What a great question, because of their very different styles and totally different contexts.

RDB played in, lead and certainly inspired, the greatest and most successful footy team ever whereas Tulip played in and lead, and tried to inspire one of the worst, through no fault of his own.

Had Tulip played in the Smith era he no doubt would have been far more widely recognized as an all time great, a multi premiership player and quite possibly a multiple Brownlow medalist.

Has RDB run around in the Tulip era teams he would probably still have been acclaimed as a great player in a crap team, without the accolades.

So, for me, I will sit on the fence and declare a draw - for skills, Tulip, for grunt, RDB.

 

Fritsch has impressed as a floating forward, and is a beautiful kick for goal. With more experience, he will be a very good 3rd forward option. 

55 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Fritsch has impressed as a floating forward, and is a beautiful kick for goal. With more experience, he will be a very good 3rd forward option. 

I`d go as far as to say he is the best kick on the list. He would be the player I`d want to have the ball to kick a winning goal after the siren.

He will likely have some inconsistency this year, maybe next year as well but long term we may just have that outside midfield distributor with clean ball skills we have been craving for years. He`ll just need a little more size and build his tank.

i still think he'll end up as a wingman

he has pace, a great boot on him, and a lovely mark

35 minutes ago, whatwhatsaywhat said:

i still think he'll end up as a wingman

he has pace, a great boot on him, and a lovely mark

I want him kicking goals.

14 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

I want him kicking goals.

Its been known for a few Dee wingmen to kick a few

What I love about Fritter and Spargo is that they are both natural footballers

Makes them effective and easy to coach

They don't hesitate like Tyson etc all they play instinctive footy and it is great to watch

We need more like them rather than the schoolboy everybody chase the ball overcommit roost the ball types that we have . Hopefully their teammates may learn something from these two and lose the auto responses that they currently display

Very very refreshing

20 hours ago, ProDee said:

My view is diametrically opposed to yours.  He's an incredibly difficult matchup for the opposition, because not only does he have courage in the air, he also has timing.  Put simply, he has real ability in the air, which is a rare commodity.  To complement this aerial ability he has speed, poise, nous and elite kicking skills.

And as he gets stronger with more preseasons he can play an outside wing role Isaac Smith style.  Their physical bios are almost identical.  Although I'm not sure he'll have Smith's tank.  

For me, Fritsch is one of the least likely busts I can think of.

Agree. The other thing I like about Fritsch is that he's got so much development left in him. Like Oliver he took a slightly different path to the big time compared to most players on AFL lists and hasn't been as professional for as long as some others his age. Once he develops physically, both with his tank and upper body, and also gets used to the game plan and being in AFL environment he becomes a seriously damaging player for us.

This is opposite to someone like Billy Stretch who has basically lived the life of a professional footballer since he was 16 with access to far better coaches, programs and facilities. I still think Billy has a place on our list going forward but there's not nearly as much upside with him as with Fritsch.

5 hours ago, monoccular said:

What a great question, because of their very different styles and totally different contexts.

RDB played in, lead and certainly inspired, the greatest and most successful footy team ever whereas Tulip played in and lead, and tried to inspire one of the worst, through no fault of his own.

Had Tulip played in the Smith era he no doubt would have been far more widely recognized as an all time great, a multi premiership player and quite possibly a multiple Brownlow medalist.

Has RDB run around in the Tulip era teams he would probably still have been acclaimed as a great player in a crap team, without the accolades.

So, for me, I will sit on the fence and declare a draw - for skills, Tulip, for grunt, RDB.

 

Flower undoubtedly more skills Barassi would not accept failure and was quite skilled as well  

In the trenches Barassi for mine.

Just to get back on to the thread I feel that Fritsch moves a lot like Robbie and barring injury will become a great player for us

On 5/1/2018 at 12:34 PM, The Chazz said:

What were the reasons Howe became ineffective as a forward?

As a forward Howe was very one dimensional. See ball and launch. That's pretty much it. When you're that predictable a defender can take measures to counteract it. Blocking, unbalancing him in his run-up, jumping in front of him. It didn't always work but most defenders had him figured out well enough to diminish his impact as a forward. He was never great on the ground as a forward.

While its a small sample, Fritsch has shown that he assesses each contest & then decides what he needs to do. Sometimes he flies for the mark, sometimes flies to spoil (that spoil down to front & square Spargo was deliberate & brilliant), sometimes he stays down behind the pack, other times he tries to get to the front. The kid has footy smarts and is multi-dimensional. When he improves his strength and tank he will be very hard to match up on.

At Melbourne Howe was developing into a very good half back. At Collingwood he has become consistently a very, very good half back.

There's a bit of irony here. I believe that Fritsch will end up playing exactly the role that Howe went to Collingwood to play. And that ain;t half back

1 hour ago, Members' Wing said:

Agree. The other thing I like about Fritsch is that he's got so much development left in him. Like Oliver he took a slightly different path to the big time compared to most players on AFL lists and hasn't been as professional for as long as some others his age. Once he develops physically, both with his tank and upper body, and also gets used to the game plan and being in AFL environment he becomes a seriously damaging player for us.

This is opposite to someone like Billy Stretch who has basically lived the life of a professional footballer since he was 16 with access to far better coaches, programs and facilities. I still think Billy has a place on our list going forward but there's not nearly as much upside with him as with Fritsch.

excellent summation. Stretch is the ultimate professional and I believe lacks the confidence self belief at the highest level. I look at a successful club like Hawthorn and they would hang on to him i reckon and let him develop in the twos until his experience allows his talent to shine through. especially when he has done everything right. plus he is a outside runner.

Fritsch looks a real talent to me, still not sure on the defensive side but his Kenny Hunter type marking looks elite. and looks a beautiful kick. Height helps as well to spoil as we saw from Saprgos first goal which looked like as Essendon mark till the late spoil came. I wonder if he gets a bigger tank if the wing beckons? reminds me of Flower a bit.

3 hours ago, Go the Biff said:

As a forward Howe was very one dimensional. See ball and launch. That's pretty much it. When you're that predictable a defender can take measures to counteract it. Blocking, unbalancing him in his run-up, jumping in front of him. It didn't always work but most defenders had him figured out well enough to diminish his impact as a forward. He was never great on the ground as a forward.

While its a small sample, Fritsch has shown that he assesses each contest & then decides what he needs to do. Sometimes he flies for the mark, sometimes flies to spoil (that spoil down to front & square Spargo was deliberate & brilliant), sometimes he stays down behind the pack, other times he tries to get to the front. The kid has footy smarts and is multi-dimensional. When he improves his strength and tank he will be very hard to match up on.

At Melbourne Howe was developing into a very good half back. At Collingwood he has become consistently a very, very good half back.

There's a bit of irony here. I believe that Fritsch will end up playing exactly the role that Howe went to Collingwood to play. And that ain;t half back

Let's not forget about Howe's first couple of seasons with us.  In 2011, he kicked 18 goals from 13 games.  In 2012, he kicked 19.25 from 22 games (also had 68 tackles and took 122 marks), a very good year, even with the inaccuracy.  In 2013 he kicked 28.16 in 21 games.

To say Howe was one dimensional isn't 100% right in my book, and I think his output, especially in 2012, is backed up by the basic stats of goals, marks and tackles for a medium forward.

I think the comparison between Fritta and Howe is a very good one (much better than the Smith comparison made earlier).  If Fritta can consistently have years (as a medium forward) similar to that of Howe's 2012 (but with better goal kicking accuracy), then he will have a long and exciting career at the MFC, and I will love supporting him.  But again, I will hold my judgement until he has played around the 50 game mark, as I'm just concerned that this style of player can get shut down by decent defenders (that have spent a bit more time watching him). 

Edited May 2, 20186 yr by The Chazz
Wrong stat - accurate now.

7 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

  In 2012, he kicked 19.25 from 22 games (also had 68 tackles and took 227 marks), a very good year, even with the inaccuracy. 

There is no way Howe he has ever taken anywhere close to that many marks in a season.  Thats 10 per game.

2 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

There is no way Howe he has ever taken anywhere close to that many marks in a season.  Thats 10 per game.

Apologies, wrote don the total kicks - should've been 122.  Will adjust.

Still, averaging near 6 marks a game, which in his 2nd season, is quite reasonable.