Good Win? ... I don't know...

[DaveyDee 421]

2 hours ago, rpfc said:

I will take that in the best way possible.

 

Have I said something that is not right? 

[Demons11 6,915]

Longmire won 12 games after taking over from Roos in 2011.  They become premiers in 2012

Goodwin won 12 games after taking over from Roos in 2017. 

Premiers 2018

[The end is nigh 366]

In yet another year of September absence, I for one am happy to not hear from a coach. We are irrelevant again until trade period, so there should be nothing for a coach to report on. The club can release info regarding departures and arrivals, but a coaches message right now has no bearing, and there's silence from all the other non participating coaches, as it should be.

Anyone who thinks he should be out in the spotlight kicking up dust in the lead up to a grand final we have no part in is delusional. 

[rpfc 28,261]

10 hours ago, DaveyDee said:

Have I said something that is not right? 

I guess that would be my question.

But again, I will take what you said as a compliment.

[GoD's67 111]

On 27/09/2017 at 3:50 PM, qwerty7 said:

Again, in regard to the injury point of discussion, it is a really ignorant thing to deem its impact a “furphy”.

We really suffered the curse of injury this season and it didn’t impact us only in the fact that it hit some of our most important players in Gawn, Hogan, Jones, Viney, etc., but it also affected our consistency. It should be no surprise Richmond was one of the top teams and is in the grand final given their almost non-existent injury list throughout the entirety of the season.

Having a consistent team and settled side is such a pivotal factor in having success and that is something we simply did not have all year. We were constantly having to make changes and adapt to new team structures due to injuries to key position players and a lot of them were long-term injuries. I mean, honestly, who would have thought we would be playing Tom McDonald forward and Pederson in the ruck for a large portion of the season? Simon Goodwin certainly wouldn’t have.

In what has been a truly testing and challenging season for Goodwin in his first year as coach, I think he has done an unbelievable job. If this were Roosy, I don’t think anyone would be half as sceptical.

Of course, there are flaws and our season was marred by unacceptable losses – but most teams have them and in a young and developing side, they happen more frequently. If you think otherwise, you had unrealistic expectations on what we should have achieved this year.  

I had twelve wins as the target mark for the season to be a pass and we achieved that. We only narrowly missed out on finals and it hurt A LOT, but that is how it is. I don’t have a loser attitude, I just have a realistic one – we were never ready to do serious damage in finals and while it would have been better to just make it an experience it, it wasn’t to be.

If we go backwards next year, that is when question marks will be raised; but for now, I think we are okay. Goody is learning, but I think he has what it takes to lead the boys to a premiership.

Well said, Demonland has many glass half empty contributors, who love the negative and avoid facts.

Like you at the start of the year, I thought 12 maybe 13 wins would be a pass mark. When you look at our injuries to key players, finishing with 12 is a pass.

Expecting Melbourne with Goodwin as a first year coach to seamlessly improve, couldn't be taken for granted.

Next year I'm expecting 14 plus wins and even better if we get a great run with injury and very good drawer like the Tigers had this year.

 

[beelzebub 23,313]

On 9/27/2017 at 3:50 PM, qwerty7 said:

Again, in regard to the injury point of discussion, it is a really ignorant thing to deem its impact a “furphy”.

We really suffered the curse of injury this season and it didn’t impact us only in the fact that it hit some of our most important players in Gawn, Hogan, Jones, Viney, etc., but it also affected our consistency. It should be no surprise Richmond was one of the top teams and is in the grand final given their almost non-existent injury list throughout the entirety of the season.

Having a consistent team and settled side is such a pivotal factor in having success and that is something we simply did not have all year. We were constantly having to make changes and adapt to new team structures due to injuries to key position players and a lot of them were long-term injuries. I mean, honestly, who would have thought we would be playing Tom McDonald forward and Pederson in the ruck for a large portion of the season? Simon Goodwin certainly wouldn’t have.

In what has been a truly testing and challenging season for Goodwin in his first year as coach, I think he has done an unbelievable job. If this were Roosy, I don’t think anyone would be half as sceptical.

Of course, there are flaws and our season was marred by unacceptable losses – but most teams have them and in a young and developing side, they happen more frequently. If you think otherwise, you had unrealistic expectations on what we should have achieved this year.  

I had twelve wins as the target mark for the season to be a pass and we achieved that. We only narrowly missed out on finals and it hurt A LOT, but that is how it is. I don’t have a loser attitude, I just have a realistic one – we were never ready to do serious damage in finals and while it would have been better to just make it an experience it, it wasn’t to be.

If we go backwards next year, that is when question marks will be raised; but for now, I think we are okay. Goody is learning, but I think he has what it takes to lead the boys to a premiership.

You seem very deft of word to suggest that the furphy of injuries is a myth then admit that the season was marred by unacceptable losses. You want it both ways it seems.

Without doubt injuries will colour the selection of players , but as the adage goes once you cross that line you play. This may be extended to, once they cross that line you COACH them.

It would be foolish to suggest that injuries have no play in the seasons results, but they arent  actually the major one. Its what happens on the ground by those on the ground that does.

We had the opportunity  to win games but didnt . In those instances it was poor coaching and a total disregard for location and circumstance that  cost them. Those ON the ground were more than capable of attaining wins on those days but were poorly utilised.

For the record I would be just as scorning and skeptical had it been Roos. I certainly made comments during his tenure to such effect

So it's all about the injuries ??....but maybe the selection, maybe the structures, maybe the game style, maybe the weather ( or lack of attention to it )....day game instructions..kicking , hand-balling,,bombing or lowering eyes,  guts or the lines etc.

The two things you cant control on the day is injury (prior, or even during ) and the weather. Everything else IS the game and how you play/direct it. These things weren't done sufficiently well especially when a win was there for the taking.

We will have to disagree. Funny though.I seldom hear a coach blame anything on injuries !! You  are welcome to

 

 

[qwerty7 326]

16 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

You seem very deft of word to suggest that the furphy of injuries is a myth then admit that the season was marred by unacceptable losses. You want it both ways it seems.

Without doubt injuries will colour the selection of players , but as the adage goes once you cross that line you play. This may be extended to, once they cross that line you COACH them.

It would be foolish to suggest that injuries have no play in the seasons results, but they arent  actually the major one. Its what happens on the ground by those on the ground that does.

We had the opportunity  to win games but didnt . In those instances it was poor coaching and a total disregard for location and circumstance that  cost them. Those ON the ground were more than capable of attaining wins on those days but were poorly utilised.

For the record I would be just as scorning and skeptical had it been Roos. I certainly made comments during his tenure to such effect

So it's all about the injuries ??....but maybe the selection, maybe the structures, maybe the game style, maybe the weather ( or lack of attention to it )....day game instructions..kicking , hand-balling,,bombing or lowering eyes,  guts or the lines etc.

The two things you cant control on the day is injury (prior, or even during ) and the weather. Everything else IS the game and how you play/direct it. These things weren't done sufficiently well especially when a win was there for the taking.

We will have to disagree. Funny though.I seldom hear a coach blame anything on injuries !! You  are welcome to

 

 

There is nothing deft about what I said. I simply said that to disregard the impact of injury is ignorant and that we had some losses throughout the season that were unacceptable, but every team had them. What do you think Don Pyke thought when he lost to North, Hawks and perhaps even us? They too fielded entirely capable players - ones that had won them matches in previous games - but sometimes things just don't work. It happens in every team and it happens more frequently in teams that are a) young and b) have lacked consistent team structures throughout the entirety of the year due to INJURY. 

The point of my post is that this season we lacked CONSISTENCY in team structures, which consequently led to INCONSISTENCY in our wins in conjunction with other factors.

I agree that injury wasn't the sole reason we didn't make finals - I never said that once in my post. Of course there are other reasons and the most simple answer is that we just weren't ready. Next year we should be and that is what I expect - if we don't, that's when we can come back here and start analysing what is wrong. 

For now, I think we sit right about where we are and where we should be. There has been linear progression and maybe it's not as fast as we all want it, but with patience, we will get there. 

Anyway, I was just sharing my reflection on the year, it wasn't directed at you at all.

[praha 11,234]

2 hours ago, GoD's67 said:

Well said, Demonland has many glass half empty contributors, who love the negative and avoid facts.

Like you at the start of the year, I thought 12 maybe 13 wins would be a pass mark. When you look at our injuries to key players, finishing with 12 is a pass.

Expecting Melbourne with Goodwin as a first year coach to seamlessly improve, couldn't be taken for granted.

Next year I'm expecting 14 plus wins and even better if we get a great run with injury and very good drawer like the Tigers had this year.

 

Wins alone though was a poor gauge this year specifically. In past seasons it was a gauge, yes, but this year it was finals. And it's not like we struggled to get there. We missed out by losing to teams below us. We are well beyond simply "improving" as a guage of success and fail. Geelong improved this year but the season was a failure. Same as GWS. We improved but the season was ultimately a failure. Finals have been a KPI for 2 seasons now.

[GoD's67 111]

3 hours ago, praha said:

Wins alone though was a poor gauge this year specifically. In past seasons it was a gauge, yes, but this year it was finals. And it's not like we struggled to get there. We missed out by losing to teams below us. We are well beyond simply "improving" as a guage of success and fail. Geelong improved this year but the season was a failure. Same as GWS. We improved but the season was ultimately a failure. Finals have been a KPI for 2 seasons now.

The Demons improved this year in wins and % column, with a tougher draw and bad run with injuries this year.

Next year an improvement in first quarters and greater consistency in general will see us win more games and make finals. 

[praha 11,234]

33 minutes ago, GoD's67 said:

The Demons improved this year in wins and % column, with a tougher draw and bad run with injuries this year.

Next year an improvement in first quarters and greater consistency in general will see us win more games and make finals. 

So as I said, improvement alone is no longer a gauge for us. We're beyond that. It was improvement when we were looking at a 2 win, 4 win, 8 win side. 

I improved in my job this past quarter but I still missed key KPIs. My team leader was not happy. It was a failure. Improvement isn't enough if I'm not reaching the goals set out as a reflection of my skill set. 

If you think Melbourne was genuinely not ready or good enough to play finals, then sure, it was an improvement and success. 

But I can't see how you can apply that logic when we lose to North Melbourne with finals on the line. Or Freo at the MCG. Or Hawthorn coming off a belting. We were good enough to play finals but didn't. Therefore it was a failure. 

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

Goodwin admitting on Ch7 that if crows win he will be joining the celebrations and has been invited by Adelaide president and CEO to join the party. Honestly, get stuffed .... if that is his attitude, we are buggered. I've said for a long time that having zero Melbourne ppl at the club is a terrible culture building strategy and his comments affirm my belief. You are either invested as a Melbourne person or not...don't care what ya past history is..that stinks

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

29 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

Goodwin admitting on Ch7 that if crows win he will be joining the celebrations and has been invited by Adelaide president and CEO to join the party. Honestly, get stuffed .... if that is his attitude, we are buggered. I've said for a long time that having zero Melbourne ppl at the club is a terrible culture building strategy and his comments affirm my belief. You are either invested as a Melbourne person or not...don't care what ya past history is..that stinks

Have you ever left a workplace and still care about those still there?

[Diamond_Jim 12,531]

1 hour ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

Goodwin admitting on Ch7 that if crows win he will be joining the celebrations and has been invited by Adelaide president and CEO to join the party. Honestly, get stuffed .... if that is his attitude, we are buggered. I've said for a long time that having zero Melbourne ppl at the club is a terrible culture building strategy and his comments affirm my belief. You are either invested as a Melbourne person or not...don't care what ya past history is..that stinks

We can judge people on many criteria but I don't think this is a valid criteria. If anything it might be a great move to gain some useful intelligence

[Sir Why You Little 36,963]

I got no problems with Goodwin still having an Adelaide connections. 

He won Back to Back Flags there

Could be useful if he wants a long career as a coach

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Can't disagree more. I would take finals experience, win lose or draw, anytime over no finals experience.  Roos was incorrect last year and his decision to take his eye off the ball in the last 3 rounds or so and state that we weren't ready was one of the worst bits of coaching strategy I have ever witnessed and a horrible ending to what till then had been quite a good coaching stint  (assuming he relaxed the training intensity in the last few weeks, which from all reports he did) .

Edited September 30, 2017 by Rusty Nails

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

On 29 September 2017 at 4:27 PM, praha said:

So as I said, improvement alone is no longer a gauge for us. We're beyond that. It was improvement when we were looking at a 2 win, 4 win, 8 win side. 

I improved in my job this past quarter but I still missed key KPIs. My team leader was not happy. It was a failure. Improvement isn't enough if I'm not reaching the goals set out as a reflection of my skill set. 

If you think Melbourne was genuinely not ready or good enough to play finals, then sure, it was an improvement and success. 

But I can't see how you can apply that logic when we lose to North Melbourne with finals on the line. Or Freo at the MCG. Or Hawthorn coming off a belting. We were good enough to play finals but didn't. Therefore it was a failure. 

Hawthorn weren't just coming off a belting.....they were horribly out of form, having only managed to beat the easy beat (away from home) Weagles in their previous 6 outings and were thrashed by two very ordinary teams by close to 100 points each time (Gold Coast & the Saints)  in those 6 weeks.

Goodwin failed to train our boys to protect and cover the "inside overlap" play that Hawthorn love and we payed yet another horribly out of form team into form, turning their season around thereafter.

Happy to give him another season, hopefully with very few injuries, but so far I'm far from impressed with Goody.  Maybe he'll improve with enough years under his belt but could be a mighty long wait.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

On 27 September 2017 at 1:53 PM, Sir Why You Little said:

Dr. G. You just cannot say it was a good effort overall with the performances of Round 22 & 23 as they were. 

We were in the finals and took the foot off the gas before the end

That must be unacceptable at all times, otherwise we are all wasting our time. 

Imagine this week if WE were painting the CBD Red and Blue as Tiger Supporters are doing to Richmond. 

Goodwin as Senior Coach still has massive problems on Game Day, Pre Match. 

The team is just not prepared correctly. 

Yes i saw some improvement this year, but overall it was a failure, that can be fixed, but i don’t want to hear about our young list again. 

AFL is a young persons sport. Toughen up or fail

Roos told them it was acceptable the year before SW.  All his good work was undone right there and he set us back on our usual course of accepting mediocrity IMO.  Also didn't help Goodwin's job going forward.  He'll need to start dishing out some tough love from here if we are to make finals under his tenure me thinks. And I don't just mean with the listed players.

[Sir Why You Little 36,963]

13 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Roos told them it was acceptable the year before SW.  All his good work was undone right there and he set us back on our usual course of accepting mediocrity IMO.  Also didn't help Goodwin's job going forward.  He'll need to start dishing out some tough love from here if we are to make finals under his tenure me thinks. And I don't just mean with the listed players.

Richmond had 2 players today who had played under 10 games, they also had about 6 players who were drafted in the 50’s. 

It is all about attitude once a fitness base is reached. 

For the Demons to choke at the end of 2016 and 2017 is just such an indicment on the entire club 

Goodwin is in the lights next year. 

Whatever he decides simply must work

[dpositive 1,663]

Some great comments here.

Im happy with Goodwin but agree that progress must continue.

just heard on Offsiders lat year was run and spread this year pressure. We need to find  our way of winnng, not just repeat what other teams are doing.

Two ways 1 use the whole squad. Helps overcome the impact of injuries and adds depth. Allows us to match up against opposition by using the right balance of skills etc on any given game. 2  Be prepared with plan B Or C or D to use within a game. The use of Pedo, Watts TMac when injury forced were an indicator of how this can work successfully.

We must also ensure we have a better rapport with the umpires. Both Dogs and Tigers showed that if you are not pinged for throwing or jumping in peoples back without penalty then you have a confidence to do anything. The Pies have this attribute as well as their supporters numbers intimidate the umpires to give them benefit of the doubt.

Get the umpires down to training acknowledging that we do things wrong and are happy to change to meet their understandings. Treat them with respect and significance.

The coach can initiate these changes and identify them as part of his progress and the clubs need to change things and improve.

 

Go Dees

[Demon trucker 1,800]

On 27/09/2017 at 5:53 PM, Sir Why You Little said:

It is not a pass mark if you have factored in those last 2 results. 

It was a choke. Same as the year before

It was a choke like last year, but last year we had to beat Carlton and Geelong in Geelong and win both games by huge margins, it was  actually a 100 one shots, so really it was not a choke far too many things had to happen, this year all we had to do was win around 23, but it can happen to any team when they look a week ahead, like I've said to you before look at some postive, and don't shoot down anyone with anything postive, what the team needs to do is improve our strength and lesson the weakness, our game plan is built on pressure and contested ball, it is the game plan Richmond had had this year, the biggest deference between our year and theirs is injuries, we had them on toast but when a team is down to 2 men on the bench, most teams get run over, name me 1 important player Richmond lost for more then 2 weeks, there are zero, Jones out for 6, hogan out for 8 weeks, gawn out for 12 weeks, watts out for 4 weeks, and before his injury he was having his best year where he had to plug many holes through players having huge times no the sideline. Viney out for 6 weeks in total, so many injuries to key players it was amazing that we won so many games, lots of teams have fallen apart with  those kinds of injuries, and we are not like GWS who have 14 first round picks playing in the seconds.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

23 hours ago, Danelska said:

Have you ever left a workplace and still care about those still there?

You happy with this too.. ? Current listed AFLW player wearing tigers gear and getting down the rooms to celebrate. I am staggered that so many don't see that as a club our staff and personal are not as passionate about the MFC the ways us fans are. You don't get that at other clubs. It's unique to ours and it is why we are a fragile, mediocre accepting football club

[GoD's67 111]

8 minutes ago, don't make me angry said:

It was a choke like last year, but last year we had to beat Carlton and Geelong in Geelong and win both games by huge margins, it was  actually a 100 one shots, so really it was not a choke far too many things had to happen, this year all we had to do was win around 23, but it can happen to any team when they look a week ahead, like I've said to you before look at some postive, and don't shoot down anyone with anything postive, what the team needs to do is improve our strength and lesson the weakness, our game plan is built on pressure and contested ball, it is the game plan Richmond had had this year, the biggest deference between our year and theirs is injuries, we had them on toast but when a team is down to 2 men on the bench, most teams get run over, name me 1 important player Richmond lost for more then 2 weeks, there are zero, Jones out for 6, hogan out for 8 weeks, gawn out for 12 weeks, watts out for 4 weeks, and before his injury he was having his best year where he had to plug many holes through players having huge times no the sideline. Viney out for 6 weeks in total, so many injuries to key players it was amazing that we won so many games, lots of teams have fallen apart with  those kinds of injuries, and we are not like GWS who have 14 first round picks playing in the seconds.

Tigers top 4 players Martin, Rance, Cotchin & Riewoldt all played 150 plus games, between them hardly missed a game, as you mention, then if you take Demons equivalent for importance of Oliver, Hogan (missed 8 games), Gawn (missed 12 games), Viney (missed 6 games) plus Jones missing 6, it kills you.

Look at Swans 0-6 start of season due to injuries, and GWS injury toll across the season, kills your season in the end.

Take two of the above top 4 Tigers out for 6 weeks and they wouldn't have finished top 4 or possibly even the eight.

All the BS about depth is crap, you can cover for a few games, but as Choco Williams said mid year, try replacing a Martin or Rance with number 23 or 24 from your list.

Tigers did get total commitment from their 22 which is the other thing we need.

Remembering all the Tiger supporters who wanted to sack Hardwick last year and trade a lot of their players, sometimes you need to be patient!

[Sir Why You Little 36,963]

25 minutes ago, don't make me angry said:

It was a choke like last year, but last year we had to beat Carlton and Geelong in Geelong and win both games by huge margins, it was  actually a 100 one shots, so really it was not a choke far too many things had to happen, this year all we had to do was win around 23, but it can happen to any team when they look a week ahead, like I've said to you before look at some postive, and don't shoot down anyone with anything postive, what the team needs to do is improve our strength and lesson the weakness, our game plan is built on pressure and contested ball, it is the game plan Richmond had had this year, the biggest deference between our year and theirs is injuries, we had them on toast but when a team is down to 2 men on the bench, most teams get run over, name me 1 important player Richmond lost for more then 2 weeks, there are zero, Jones out for 6, hogan out for 8 weeks, gawn out for 12 weeks, watts out for 4 weeks, and before his injury he was having his best year where he had to plug many holes through players having huge times no the sideline. Viney out for 6 weeks in total, so many injuries to key players it was amazing that we won so many games, lots of teams have fallen apart with  those kinds of injuries, and we are not like GWS who have 14 first round picks playing in the seconds.

Thanks for the lecture. 

I will react to both the 2016 and 2017 chokes however i see fit. 

I don’t see positives when the club “pulls up” before the finish line ? 

The MFC makes an Art form out of it

 

[jackaub 1,402]

9 minutes ago, GoD's67 said:

Tigers top 4 players Martin, Rance, Cotchin & Riewoldt all played 150 plus games, between them hardly missed a game, as you mention, then if you take Demons equivalent for importance of Oliver, Hogan (missed 8 games), Gawn (missed 12 games), Viney (missed 6 games) plus Jones missing 6, it kills you.

Look at Swans 0-6 start of season due to injuries, and GWS injury toll across the season, kills your season in the end.

Take two of the above top 4 Tigers out for 6 weeks and they wouldn't have finished top 4 or possibly even the eight.

All the BS about depth is crap, you can cover for a few games, but as Choco Williams said mid year, try replacing a Martin or Rance with number 23 or 24 from your list.

Tigers did get total commitment from their 22 which is the other thing we need.

Remembering all the Tiger supporters who wanted to sack Hardwick last year and trade a lot of their players, sometimes you need to be patient!

Yes but the Swans then went on a winathon easily dispatching teams no matter what their ladder position

MFC couldnt beat teams below it. God help the fragile mentality if we were in a similar position to the Swans

we wouldnt have won another game and this site would have melted

[Sir Why You Little 36,963]

19 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

You happy with this too.. ? Current listed AFLW player wearing tigers gear and getting down the rooms to celebrate. I am staggered that so many don't see that as a club our staff and personal are not as passionate about the MFC the ways us fans are. You don't get that at other clubs. It's unique to ours and it is why we are a fragile, mediocre accepting football club

Our players are not allowed to “like” a tweet?

they do have friendships out of the MFC...