11 hours ago, demoniac said:

A question I have never asked to this point in my life. What colour shoes do you wear with a burgundy suit? Not sure Jack has answered correctly.

What's wrong with burgundy?

White, by the way.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Sargent Shultz said:

Thanks, here is a couple of other old school thinkers (Sir Alex Ferguson from MU and Bill Walsh SF 49'rs) on what make a great coach, from a HBR article

https://hbr.org/2015/02/how-to-coach-according-to-5-great-sports-coaches

And Walsh agrees with Ferguson that the stars aren’t where you need to focus your energy. “Superstars will usually take care of themselves,” said Walsh. “Anybody can coach them.”

“The difference between winning and losing is the bottom 25% of your people,” explained Walsh. “Most coaches can deliver the top 75%. But the last 25% only blossoms in the details, in the orchestration of skills, in the way you prepare.”

The interviews are well worth reading in full, but a few key lessons stand out:

• Be prepared and expect the same of your team.
• Adjust your style to each of your employees’ needs. What works for one person could be detrimental to another. Figure out the best approach for each by watching your employees in action.
• Choose encouragement over criticism; but when you must criticize, give feedback as soon after the event as possible. Be honest but compassionate, then move on.
• Have high expectations. Believe in your team.
• Don’t ignore or sideline underperformers — your team is only as good as your weakest member. Instead, help them improve.
• Make progress tangible. Set clear goals and milestones, and celebrate when you hit them.

Absolutely - all of that - "empathic accountability" - I must have misread that original post of yours, that its the coaches responsibility. Sir Alex etc have all had players on their books, who irrespective of talent id  -have been unable to hit perceived potential (i personally think potential is laden with unfair expectations) - and have subsequently been moved on. Jack is that person currently. 

I feel that the the majority of this thread is all about the point in bold - how have coaches helped Jack to improve - have they done it correctly (whatever that is, a sense of it, or scientifically validated means), and if they haven't (from supporters perspective how would they actually even know) - who's responsibility in the end is it for Jack to improve, the system, or Jack...

 

I cannot believe some posters have gone to the extraordinary lengths to mention players from the 80's and 90's as a comparison to the way football is played today. Watts v Dunstall, Stynes and Flower some absolute corkers lol

One thing those 3 did give every time though was effort.

13 minutes ago, Sargent Shultz said:

see my last post, explains it all 

Not really

46 minutes ago, Sargent Shultz said:

Basically yes. although "motivate" is a very limiting word that suggests a short-term event such as a rousing speech at halftime, rather a full year of developing an individual about life & footy and dealing with all aspects of their make up. Most of the "trade JW" posts seem to point the finger of blame at JW and absolve the coach(s) of any responsibility. I suspect both Watts and Stringer will pop up at another club and emerge of the next few years as great players and both the dogs and dees will regret their decision.

here is some interesting reading.

"2012 represented a step backwards for Martin both on the field and off. On 3 July 2012, Martin and teammate Daniel Connors missed a mandatory training session at the club. According to a statement released by Richmond, the pair had taken prescription sleeping medication the night prior and had overslept. Martin had also been drinking that night and had the medication prescribed. The club said both had failed to uphold team standards and Martin was suspended for two weeks for the incident. Meanwhile, Connors, who was on a final warning under coach Hardwick, was sacked.^[11] After fourth and third place finishes in the club's best-and-fairest the years prior, Martin would only manage 10th spot in 2012"

We all know what happened after - the coaches at Richmond, mostly Hardwick I would guess, clearly decided to take on the challenge and work with Martin "to become the best he can be" and it worked.

The easy, soft option would  have been to trade him

 

This is total bs. You have no idea. The guy that turned martin around was choco Williams. He was virtually a full time minder. Wasn't hardwicks coaching...

40 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Biff..one big difference however. Players honoured Tulips leads. I have  no definitive understanding of why Jacks were ignored ( shunned even) on a regular basis.

Much of what folk are keen to blame Jack for is actually other people's actions. Were/are they brought to task ? 

To wit, I thought Jack was loved by all and sundry and the club was going to fracture, players were going to walk, if he's moved on. Yet they won't kick the ball to him? Strange.

9 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

199 pages... one of the most emotive posts ever.

Port get Jack Watts in exchange for a packet of chips and MFC pays for the chips. Weak MFC. 

Goodwin and Mahoney talk about Character and Standards.  They have eroded theirs and MFC more than Watts ever could or did.  Surely they should disciplined Watts or taken on the challenge to again get the best out of Watts. Roos did. 

Instead they market Watts as a disruptive fickle type. Really!!  Watts has been loyal when others like Scully & Frawley walked away. Watts has always had the best intent for MFC. 

Others have made decisions to move on club favourites.  Woewodin. Spalding. Green. J-McDonald. Those decisions all failed and eroded club, player and supporter morale. It’s salary cap and personalities that have led to this.

I am looking for top 4 in 2018. Goodwin has the players to deliver it. It’s his acid test.

I don't post here very often but this appalling post has motivated me to do so. 

I don't think any of us here know the full extent of this story so for you to come out and attack Mahoney's and Goodwin's character in defence of Watts, using his apparent 'loyalty' as an excuse - is really poor. He has been a well paid employee over this time and appears to be (see how I don't portray this as fact?) the type of character who was happy to go along for the ride, or do the easy thing. You have no idea if Jack has always had the best interests of the MFC at heart. Zero idea. If he did, he certainly had a strange way of showing it by in my view picking and choosing when to perform.

The one thing we have been told is that after 9 years and 150 games, his inconsistency cannot be tolerated any longer.

Given we failed as a club this year due to inconsistency (was not rd23's fault, not Adelaide's fault, but the losses to NM x2,freo,haw that stood between us and top 4 - let alone finals), i think that whether they are right or wrong on Jack it is clear they are trying to address why we came up short. That is their role and they should not be attacked for it or have their motives questioned.

Personally, I had held some hope he would stay and turn it around, but his little video he has released eroded that hope and replaced it with anger.

Lovely for him to respond to a young concerned supporter yes, but to use that as a chance to overlay a swipe at the club and go on to essentially pisstake the club (my interpretation, others may differ) left me furious. 

How many other 26/27 year old 150 game players would release that when moving clubs? Compare to Jarman Impey's message to PA supporters - classy and gracious. Jack's approach to me is childish and immature. Perhaps that is why he is so well loved, perhaps  it is also why he's always been inconsistent. There have been a few other indicators of this over the journey. 

Do keep in mind Paul Roos was in a highly fortuitous position during his tenure. He was to be judged only a little on wins, moreso observed cultural change. He needed to build mateship and unity - I have little doubt Jack is top notch in these areas. We are through that stage and now need to break the ceiling. Evidently the FD think Jack, who appears to have developed so poorly and slowly on field and arguably (per video) off it, is not the best exponent of the breakthrough year.

Whether we make top 4 next year will have nothing to do with Jack, and him thriving elsewhere will not mean this was a bad decision.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Danelska said:

Absolutely - all of that - "empathic accountability" - I must have misread that original post of yours, that its the coaches responsibility. Sir Alex etc have all had players on their books, who irrespective of talent id  -have been unable to hit perceived potential (i personally think potential is laden with unfair expectations) - and have subsequently been moved on. Jack is that person currently. 

I feel that the the majority of this thread is all about the point in bold - how have coaches helped Jack to improve - have they done it correctly (whatever that is, a sense of it, or scientifically validated means), and if they haven't (from supporters perspective how would they actually even know) - who's responsibility in the end is it for Jack to improve, the system, or Jack...

 

perhaps we (coaches and supporters) should look at this fiasco another way.

What does MFC gain by trading JW? A round 30 (and drifting) pick in the draft who, in 3-5 years MAY make an impact.

What does the MFC lose by trading JW? The opportunity for Goodwin and Co to work with a 150 game player, with elite skills, who COULD be the difference between MFC doing a Richmond or Doggies next year- witness JW's game when we first played Collingwood. Final 5 minutes of the last quarter when he kicked the sealer at one end and stopped a certain goal at the other. You just don't see those performances from some on our list we are keeping

Read Roosey book, Jack is sadly just on of many starved of proper development between 18-22yrs gifted games on ability only never taught how to play properly we have done it for years. Unfortunately Jack may have been a superstar we will never know

12 hours ago, Mazer Rackham said:

The Jones I'm thinking of is an entirely different kind of artist.

I am very good friends with Alan Jones, the artist, and have many of his works in my house. Hence, my question.

But people not in the art world typically confuse this Alan Jones with the dude that speaks his mouth off at just about anything on the radio.

https://www.alanjonesonline.com/

 

5 minutes ago, Sargent Shultz said:

perhaps we (coaches and supporters) should look at this fiasco another way.

What does MFC gain by trading JW? A round 30 (and drifting) pick in the draft who, in 3-5 years MAY make an impact.

What does the MFC lose by trading JW? The opportunity for Goodwin and Co to work with a 150 game player, with elite skills, who COULD be the difference between MFC doing a Richmond or Doggies next year- witness JW's game when we first played Collingwood. Final 5 minutes of the last quarter when he kicked the sealer at one end and stopped a certain goal at the other. You just don't see those performances from some on our list we are keeping

I love it when people hand pick one moment out of a career.    

 

1 hour ago, Nasher said:

People do go a little loopy though. In this thread alone, one of the posters participating in this thread accused me of deleting his posts because I'm not on the same side of the argument as him, when actually I have no idea what post he is talking about, who deleted it or why he would assume it was me when there are half a dozen people it could be. I'm pretty sure I haven't deleted any posts in this thread. 

Sorry I think I have to take the blame for that one. I'll do anything to score non-existent points in an anonymous argument on an internet footy forum.

1 hour ago, Diamond said:

We paid Travis Johnstone at the bears. Another flawed number 1 draft pick...

Yeah. We keep doing it. Getting Bent Over. 

It’s why other clubs laugh at us. 

Imagine that bogan turd Kochie right now

”mm Jack Watts for $200 Grand a year, why not...”

that is almost a tax write off and we are billed for it

Keep him at Casey i say until he penny drops. 

Now that all this is public, he will either get it or walk away from the game. 

But bugger another Top 4 club (we could be pushing for the same spot next year) getting an elite user of the ball (albeit sporadic) for the price of a packet of chips and a few Tim Tams. 

10 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

I don't post here very often but this appalling post has motivated me to do so. 

Post more, please. We need more posts of this type and quality.

9 minutes ago, Sargent Shultz said:

perhaps we (coaches and supporters) should look at this fiasco another way.

What does MFC gain by trading JW? A round 30 (and drifting) pick in the draft who, in 3-5 years MAY make an impact.

What does the MFC lose by trading JW? The opportunity for Goodwin and Co to work with a 150 game player, with elite skills, who COULD be the difference between MFC doing a Richmond or Doggies next year- witness JW's game when we first played Collingwood. Final 5 minutes of the last quarter when he kicked the sealer at one end and stopped a certain goal at the other. You just don't see those performances from some on our list we are keeping

What did Jack do in Round 23???  Or the other 100 of the 150 he has played. Needs to grow up. He is 26

8 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

This is total bs. You have no idea. The guy that turned martin around was choco Williams. He was virtually a full time minder. Wasn't hardwicks coaching...

Do you always completely miss the point? or is this a once off? I admitted that "I guessed" it was Hardwick, thanks for the edification Chocco it is, and that it was the "coaches" responsibility. "Coaches" in this context is all those responsible for player performance and welfare.

The point of the post was- it is possible to turn around a players performance and be greatly rewarded- but it is the responsibility of both the coach(s) and the player.

you actually supported my proposition

8 minutes ago, ucanchoose said:

I love it when people hand pick one moment out of a career.    

 

Then you will love these moments..........2016 when he played well enough to finish 5th in Bluey?

9 hours ago, bandicoot said:

I wonder if all your 8300 previous posts are as idiotic as this one 

You and many others in this thread could do with lightening up a little.

I apologise for trying.

53 minutes ago, Nasher said:

Because of my vendetta against you Biff, I'm afraid none of your material will be in the book.

(I truly haven't deleted any of your posts in this thread)

As this thread is now completely derailed...

What do "days won" mean on one's profile page.

And when do they get delivered ?

9 minutes ago, Sargent Shultz said:

Then you will love these moments..........2016 when he played well enough to finish 5th in Bluey?

Is that evidence for or against trading Watts?

Reckon Mahoney working furiously to get a third club involved. Otherwise we're going to flip him to port for pick 31. Hopefully we'd keep him in that instance. 

13 minutes ago, Sargent Shultz said:

Then you will love these moments..........2016 when he played well enough to finish 5th in Bluey?

Too little too late

28 minutes ago, Sargent Shultz said:

perhaps we (coaches and supporters) should look at this fiasco another way.

What does MFC gain by trading JW? A round 30 (and drifting) pick in the draft who, in 3-5 years MAY make an impact.

What does the MFC lose by trading JW? The opportunity for Goodwin and Co to work with a 150 game player, with elite skills, who COULD be the difference between MFC doing a Richmond or Doggies next year- witness JW's game when we first played Collingwood. Final 5 minutes of the last quarter when he kicked the sealer at one end and stopped a certain goal at the other. You just don't see those performances from some on our list we are keeping

did you not watch the last 2 grannys? the teams that won were the teams that had 22 players applying manic pressure for all quarters all through the finals series.  jack would almost single handedly discount us from having a team like this. 

it baffles me that people think a player can just go down to the shops and get a jar of competitiveness. if you don't have it, you don't have it. absolutely nothing to do coaches not being able to get the most out of him. he just doesnt have it.

54 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Martin was 21 at the time. Watts is 26.

And in his 3rd year, not his 9th.

44 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

AFL covers TPP so you don't have to worry about your membership dollars going to waste

I do not like being Bent Over Dr. 

I have no problem with Watts being moved on, but it must be at a fair price. 

The way the deal looks now is Port are picking Jack up off the nature strip with the Hard Rubbish Trailer Rental And then we have to pay ongoing after that. 

I wish i could speak to Wattsy, i have been through enough sh!t in my time. I would back myself to sort out his priorities. 

A trip to The Austin Hospital Spinal Unit would be top of my list after the initial pleasantries. 

Have a chat to people who can no longer move or feel their own bodies. 

My disability is not as drastic as that, but i have had it for 54 years without respite. 

If Jack loves the club as he has said, he can honour his signature. If he runs away to Alberton and we still pay him a % of his salary, i and many others will be filthy. 

Our worst feature last season was field kicking. Who was the best exponent of Field kicking?