18 hours ago, rpfc said:

I had 'hide' in inverted commas so I wouldn't read too much into that...

Last year, I played a 28 year old with a shot body, no speed, fumbly with the footy early in the season... and I played him because he was like having an extra coach out there amongst a very young group. We could have won without him too, but in the last game of the season, the most important one, was the one we nearly lost but we didn't because when we were headed in the last quarter for the first time all year - we had someone out there who was instructing and imploring and pushing the younger players to keep their heads up, and keep doing the small things. He had been doing that all year - one of the few who did - and I think it paid off in the Grand Final. The kids saw an even bloke who was telling them to do the same things he had been telling them to do all year. He was one of my first picked, and he wouldn't have averaged 10 touches in the middle, but he didn't have to get the footy - we had plenty of talent - we just had no experience, brains, or calmness.

Yes, I saw the commas around "hide" so that's why I said " It suggests you recognize his declining abilities and "football" value to the team".  You appear to have ducked my question " Are you suggesting that we retain him in the team for his leadership capabilities (which I dispute) even if he isn't up to it and there are better alternatives? "

I know you've given us an example of what you've done as a coach but you've suggested you did play your old fumbly leader because you had a very young group.  I contend we don't have a very young group and I'd also contend that a team playing well below AFL standard (an assumption that may be wrong) can't be compared to a group of full time footballers with such an experienced group of assistant and development coaches training them as well as input from Leading Teams (who I think we still use).

Anyway I'd be interested in your answer to my question if you can be bothered.

But on another note it's interesting how people interpret events to suit their views/hopes/stance.  Lewis supporters and now defending his lack of chasing saying it's smart.  When Watts was a whipping boy and did the same he was treated quite differently.  Steve's initial reaction was that Oscar's kick to Harmes was lucky (he's not a supporter of Oscar in case you'd missed it) but when he looked closely at the replay he agreed Oscar's kick was good.  Lewis came to us as a bit of a messiah and we all desperately want him to have that defining difference to our team.  I did too, I just never liked him and regardless of the fact he now wears a MFC jumper I can't warm to him.  I see what he does very critically whereas others see him through rose coloured glasses because they don't want their hopes dashed.

Lewis has been very good on occasions.  He was particularly good against Saints but has been workman like the rest of the games with some very poor performances during games.  He was terrible against Suns in the first half.  He's slow and he's old.  I'd dispute Pro's assertion that he can play multiple positions.  I think his midfield days are just about gone, he's a liability one on one in defence because he can't go with the smaller forwards. He can't play small forward because he can't apply defensive pressure. His position is running up and down the wing picking up a few kicks and playing loose man in defence.  He's not done yet but he's not far off.  I hope he get through next year but with the natural improvement of players like Wagner, Smith, Stretch, Brayshaw and the return of Gawn and Hogan (who just add general pressure to selection) he's in trouble.

Anyway that's my view, we'll see what happens.

1 minute ago, Vogon Poetry said:

 

Anyway I'd be interested in your answer to my question if you can be bothered.

 

So people say you can't read tone from text...

My little story answered your question - of course I would play a champion like Lewis ahead of more talented players because of the intangibles that he brings. If footy was so simple as to be the winner is the team with the most talented players - it would a lot easier to tip (and to coach).

I always get uneasy when I see players written off when they are as good as Lewis.

I am not going to say we won't move past him because that happens - players hit a wall. But my gut tells me that he still has a lot to offer the team on the field, even if it isn't with the footy in his hands.

1 hour ago, Demonland said:

Lyon this morning on SEN.

LEWIS WON’T SEE OUT DEAL: LYON

AFL great Garry Lyon believes Jordan Lewis will struggle to see out his three year contract at Melbourne.
Lewis is in the first year of a new deal after leaving Hawthorn in the off-season.

Lyon said Lewis was having a “good, solid season” but questioned whether the four time premiership player will be able to keep up with the pace of the game in the years to come. 

“I’d be surprised if he plays the whole three years,” Lyon said on SEN radio. 

“He has influenced games more than Sam (Mitchell). He has been enormous on occasions, behind the footy, throwing himself behind the ball, controlling, dictating, his ball use is superb still. All those things have been great. 

“There will be moments where Goody (coach Simon Goodwin) will look at it and think, this is too quick for Jordan. We need to get him off or deploy him somewhere else.” 

Lyon highlighted the Queen’s Birthday clash against Collingwood as a prime example of Lewis struggling with the pace. 

“That game on Monday was lightning quick in the first half. Jordan had two possessions half way through the second quarter.

“The game was too quick for him. As the pace came off and the heat came out…he started to have more impact.

“That was great because he is a smart ball user.”

 

The general-after-the-war has spoken.  A 'balanced assessment' given as the penny crashes into the turf.  Does he now think Bevo is the best coach going around?  What about Joe Daniher?  Does he think he has passed Jesse, and on the way to the Coleman?  

Garry is the ultimate general-after-the-war, as are many here.  Don't get me started on Neeldy either.  Lyon was a good player, and great kick.  An exceptional captain with question marks on his inclusiveness of the fringe.  That doesn't make you a great thinker about this game.  It doesn't put you a step ahead of the pack.

 

He is doubting Lewis' pace in years to come, but highlighted the obvious deficit last Monday.  The cynic in me thinks...as a good mate of Todd Viney and others,  Lyon is trying to soften the landing for those responsible at the MFC.  A bit like pre-budget leaking of new harsh measures.

 

 

Where was the media on this last November?  Who stuck their neck out then to predict the utterly predictable?  No, they all clapped without thinking; like the masses.  Didn't pause one moment to think in a balanced way then.  It was all about what could go right only. 

And for those that think he cost us nothing, gee, I wouldn't mind the club having his wage at our disposal banked up for 18/19.  We are in the window, we should top up wisely....objectively, without seduction.

 

 

 

pTGR

Edited June 15, 20177 yr by TGR
Public school spelling and grammar

Speculation breeds imagination. Forum participants/protagonists, with successful teams like ours have their players under the spotlight incessantly.

Lewis= success, the mood is infectious and so obvious and tangible.Look at the graph line of Hawthorn this year compared to us in 6th position without/with the same player and no Ruck and Full Forward. Adjournment for lunch.... 

5 hours ago, Demonland said:

Lyon this morning on SEN.

LEWIS WON’T SEE OUT DEAL: LYON

AFL great Garry Lyon believes Jordan Lewis will struggle to see out his three year contract at Melbourne.
Lewis is in the first year of a new deal after leaving Hawthorn in the off-season.

Lyon said Lewis was having a “good, solid season” but questioned whether the four time premiership player will be able to keep up with the pace of the game in the years to come. 

“I’d be surprised if he plays the whole three years,” Lyon said on SEN radio. 

“He has influenced games more than Sam (Mitchell). He has been enormous on occasions, behind the footy, throwing himself behind the ball, controlling, dictating, his ball use is superb still. All those things have been great. 

“There will be moments where Goody (coach Simon Goodwin) will look at it and think, this is too quick for Jordan. We need to get him off or deploy him somewhere else.” 

Lyon highlighted the Queen’s Birthday clash against Collingwood as a prime example of Lewis struggling with the pace. 

“That game on Monday was lightning quick in the first half. Jordan had two possessions half way through the second quarter.

“The game was too quick for him. As the pace came off and the heat came out…he started to have more impact.

“That was great because he is a smart ball user.”

 

Garry is poking the old bear. 

Will be interesting to see how Lewis responds.

Lewis contract heavily front ended. Has paid dividends already. Jordie McKenzie was on bigger coin in the last year of his final contract than Jordan will be..If he plays one game bin 2019 it will be a bonus.Club fully aware of this. Even as an assistant coach he'll be on roughly the same as Ben Matthews.Plenty of salary cap room for young bucks.This discussion is just about the biggest non issue of the millennium.

9 hours ago, martin said:

Lewis contract heavily front ended. Has paid dividends already. Jordie McKenzie was on bigger coin in the last year of his final contract than Jordan will be..If he plays one game bin 2019 it will be a bonus.Club fully aware of this. Even as an assistant coach he'll be on roughly the same as Ben Matthews.Plenty of salary cap room for young bucks.This discussion is just about the biggest non issue of the millennium.

Good point. He has also just turned 31.  Mathew Boyd, Robert murphy and Dale Morris turn 35 this year. Andrew Mackie 33.

On 14/06/2017 at 8:03 PM, TGR said:

 

I was never for a 3 year deal nor a 2 year deal.  We got seduced by the romance of a name player wanting to come to us.  We got seduced by the player he was and not the player he is and will be.  As I said in November, when father-time comes, it can come quickly, especially if you have no tricks (speed like Boomer; strength-mobility like Ablett Jr.) .  Jordan Lewis has no tricks.  No speed.  No overhead prowess.  No change-of-direction wizardry.  He has had a massive career of unparalleled courage and hits; and if anyone in the league should be battle-weary by age 31, it is him.

 

Pretty easy for Jordan and his throng of supporters (at SEN and demonology, and the MFC board, and MFC list management) to put egg on the face of those of us that dare say the earth may not be flat.  All he has to do is play footy worthy of player 14-18 on the list I would have thought....week in...week out in 2017 and 2018.  I am laying on my back, eyes closed, and here is a dozen.

Where have the thinkers gone?

 

 

21 hours ago, TGR said:

He is doubting Lewis' pace in years to come, but highlighted the obvious deficit last Monday.  The cynic in me thinks...as a good mate of Todd Viney and others,  Lyon is trying to soften the landing for those responsible at the MFC.  A bit like pre-budget leaking of new harsh measures.

 

 

10 hours ago, martin said:

Lewis contract heavily front ended. Has paid dividends already. Jordie McKenzie was on bigger coin in the last year of his final contract than Jordan will be..If he plays one game bin 2019 it will be a bonus.Club fully aware of this. Even as an assistant coach he'll be on roughly the same as Ben Matthews.Plenty of salary cap room for young bucks.This discussion is just about the biggest non issue of the millennium.

As a thinker...I think 'martin' is pretty close to the mark on this. 'TGR', I don't think you have thought this through at all. You've only looked at things on a surface level...player you see as past his prime, 3 year contract.

It's in the media's interest to ramp up a story, write off a champion, think they have all the answers. Their stories run on daily and weekly cycles. Thank goodness our FD don't run this way, they knew what they were getting.

Yes, we signed Lewis to a 3 year deal but as Martin says it was good business. You've got to get past the 3 years, it's not the point here.

My thoughts are that we were looking to get one good season to really help develop a young list and anything past that is a bonus.

I would love to see Lewis have those games he did with the Hawks, usually when Hodge and Mitchell were out or struggling, where he picked up the slack, took the team on his back and led them to victory.

Maybe those games are past him now or maybe he steps up this week.

 

9 minutes ago, rjay said:

 

 

As a thinker...I think 'martin' is pretty close to the mark on this. 'TGR', I don't think you have thought this through at all. You've only looked at things on a surface level...player you see as past his prime, 3 year contract.

It's in the media's interest to ramp up a story, write off a champion, think they have all the answers. Their stories run on daily and weekly cycles. Thank goodness our FD don't run this way, they knew what they were getting.

Yes, we signed Lewis to a 3 year deal but as Martin says it was good business. You've got to get past the 3 years, it's not the point here.

My thoughts are that we were looking to get one good season to really help develop a young list and anything past that is a bonus.

I would love to see Lewis have those games he did with the Hawks, usually when Hodge and Mitchell were out or struggling, where he picked up the slack, took the team on his back and led them to victory.

Maybe those games are past him now or maybe he steps up this week.

 

How valuable would it be for Viney and others to spend a preseason watching a 4 time premiership pro go about his business ?

What value do you put on his intellectual property ?  The value of being able to talk to him about his experiences and how he witnessed a club win a flag 3 years after they won 5 games for the year ?

I've been disappointed with his output, but I have zero doubt he's got some good footy left in him in 2017.  

And unlike others, I don't dislike him, so perhaps my views aren't clouded from the outset.

Some vintage TGR

Why does Tortoise and Hare come to mind ....

I just re-watched the last 5 minutes against the pies and you could not get a more valuable coaching and teaching lesson than  Lewis's actions in the Tom Phillips goal. 5:18 to go.

When the ball is turned over , Lewis gut runs and chases from our half forward line - not quick enough to tackle. As the ball moves wider to our  half back flank Lewis has run ahead of the play to where he thinks the ball may go filling the hole 40 metres ahead of the Collingwood kicker. The ball does come in  and Lewis  looks back and sees that Moore will mark unopposed, backs into Darcy Moore at full back to at least create body pressure and a contest (not sure where the tall backs were). The ball spilled loose due to Lewis's body pressure ( albeit Moore should have marked over Lewis)  - Phillips gathers and goals.

Whilst they still kicked a goal from beating our press, Lewis, whilst not earning a stat and the team getting a negative result, showed what 250 games plus of experience brings to the table. 

He is past his best but is valuable none the less.

 

 

Edited June 16, 20177 yr by nutbean

2 hours ago, ProDee said:

How valuable would it be for Viney and others to spend a preseason watching a 4 time premiership pro go about his business ?

What value do you put on his intellectual property ?  The value of being able to talk to him about his experiences and how he witnessed a club win a flag 3 years after they won 5 games for the year ?

I've been disappointed with his output, but I have zero doubt he's got some good footy left in him in 2017.  

And unlike others, I don't dislike him, so perhaps my views aren't clouded from the outset.

I've actually spoken to an assistant coach at the club and he tells me that Lewis has taken both watts and Oliver under his wing and he credits both of their improvement this year to his work in the back ground.

Thankfully TGR plays absolutely no part in our FD. 

55 minutes ago, nutbean said:

I just re-watched the last 5 minutes against the pies and you could not get a more valuable coaching and teaching lesson than  Lewis's actions in the Tom Phillips goal. 5:18 to go.

When the ball is turned over , Lewis gut runs and chases from our half forward line - not quick enough to tackle. As the ball moves wider to our  half back flank Lewis has run ahead of the play to where he thinks the ball may go filling the hole 40 metres ahead of the Collingwood kicker. The ball does come in  and Lewis  looks back and sees that Moore will mark unopposed, backs into Darcy Moore at full back to at least create body pressure and a contest (not sure where the tall backs were). The ball spilled loose due to Lewis's body pressure ( albeit Moore should have marked over Lewis)  - Phillips gathers and goals.

Whilst they still kicked a goal from beating our press, Lewis, whilst not earning a stat and the team getting a negative result, showed what 250 games plus of experience brings to the table. 

He is past his best but is valuable none the less.

Something else I've wondered about the play that led to Phillips's goal.

Moore could have easily marked over Lewis by just holding his ground and not jumping into his back, and he knew that a teammate was running into space behind them. By putting his knee into Lewis's back, he took Lewis right out of the contest, but didn't complete the mark. If that ever happens in a pack, the player who gets taken out of the contest usually gets a free, unless the guy coming over the top completes the mark.

There was no question that Moore was trying to mark the ball, but there was equally no question that Moore was far more effective at taking Lewis right out of the play (and therefore gifting his teammate an easy goal) than he was at actually making the play himself.

Would have been a very soft free, but no softer that the ones that Pies supporters have been bleating about all week.

Personally, I think Lewis needs to lift his game a bit for the trade to be justified. Lewis is taking up a big chunk of salary cap space and is on a three-year deal. At the moment Lewis is still reading the play very well, but he is making too many mistakes in marking/receiving, disposal and picking up the ground ball for a player of his pace. He is also a poor pressure player. Hopefully he is just out of form, but he was definitely showing his age on Monday.

I like seeing him played as a loose defender, but this is not a position we will always want, or as a defender on a slow forward. I feel he needs to also find a role other than this.

The Generals are seldom the youngest or the quickest but more often than not, the most astute.

I could only wish Lewis had the performance of his better days (@clarkotown) but he still brings buckets of nouse. 

There'll come the day to hang up the boots. Not there yet.

I always thought Maxwell was just an average player (but an above average thug), but in 2009/10/11 he was a superb general. He might not have been able to do it himself, but he was bloody good at making sure the young talent was in the right place at the right time.

We've complained for a decade that we have had no older leaders, and now we have got one almost for free some think that we've lost in what was pretty much a gift. 

We will play finals. Of that I'm sure. And when we do Lewis will pay back his paypacket in the first game - and every young talent in the side will learn a million things from him.

 

2 hours ago, Fat Tony said:

Personally, I think Lewis needs to lift his game a bit for the trade to be justified. Lewis is taking up a big chunk of salary cap space and is on a three-year deal. At the moment Lewis is still reading the play very well, but he is making too many mistakes in marking/receiving, disposal and picking up the ground ball for a player of his pace. He is also a poor pressure player. Hopefully he is just out of form, but he was definitely showing his age on Monday.

I like seeing him played as a loose defender, but this is not a position we will always want, or as a defender on a slow forward. I feel he needs to also find a role other than this.

Further to this, I think a benchmark for Lewis is Daniel Cross, who played two great years for us, averaging 22 possessions and over 4 tackles. He cost us a similar amount to Lewis in draft picks, but much less salary cap space and years. While Lewis is a more damaging kick than Cross, he looks to be showing his age much more, with poor defensive efforts and trouble bending over once the ball hits the deck.

On 13/06/2017 at 8:32 PM, Deestroy All said:

It's a sphere. 

It can be flat and "round" at the same time. 

The earth is a sphere. 

(Please be a flat earther on here, please!)

for tgr's benefit it's an oblate spheroid 

I reckon we hold off judgements until Lewis has played his first finals series with the Demons, as I suspect his value at the pointy end may be being underestimated by some at this point of time...

 

Let me be the first to take credit for the anticipated awesome display of JL agin the bullies - showing leadership providing "structure" and dominating stats.

My critique of his last game was clearly the stimulus for his (hopefully) improved performance. 

If his performance doesnt improve then my critique stands.

I think my bases are covered.

I thought and still think he'll be useful for the first 2 years.  The third year was always going to be a battle for Jordan IMO.  Bernie is in a similar position.  I wouldn't be expecting anything useful from Bernie in 2019.

Prior to the arrival of Paul Roos at MFC I spent many years having virtually zero confidence in our FD to make any sensible decision on recruitment or team selection. This slowly has changed and right now I have reasonable faith in the FD to get these decisions right the majority of the time. If JL's form or perceived value to the team doesnt warrant selection I am sure he wont play - simple !

I don't know why there is an issue with the 3 year deal. if he gets to the point where he is not earning regular senior selection i suspect he will retire and they will negotiate a reasonable pay out. With a bit of luck they might be able to keep him involved in the club as they have done so brilliantly with Crossy. 

57 minutes ago, binman said:

I don't know why there is an issue with the 3 year deal. if he gets to the point where he is not earning regular senior selection i suspect he will retire and they will negotiate a reasonable pay out. With a bit of luck they might be able to keep him involved in the club as they have done so brilliantly with Crossy. 

This is the [censored].  We get the inside running on an articulate 4 time premiership player who has already built a strong sense of team and relationship with the players.

There was never a lot to lose out of this deal.

Edited June 16, 20177 yr by Guest