I look at players like jack Viney, dom Tyson and the McDonald brothers who all play key roles in our starting 22 but they are all average kicks. 

I think this is a really key area for us to improve, but I can't see us winning a flag unless especially the McDonald brothers improve in that area. 

I know some will disagree but I ask for respectful discussion as I think this is a fair topic to discuss.

Tyson desperately needs to cut out those horrible elementary turnovers he's prone to do, for him to be considered an elite player or even remain in the side.

I agree, these players are very good but their finishing lets them down. Not sure there is room for average kicks in the modern game 

Fyfe and Dangerfield are almost universally acknowledge as the 2 or 2 of the best players in the comp and they both are pretty ordinary kicks - but they still do a ton of damage. I don't care about the odd mistake as long as the overall contribution is positive. If one of the Macs take a brilliant goal saving intercept mark, try and run the ball from defense then miss a target, I'm remembering the intercept mark and non-goal rather than the mistake. I know most will only focus on the mistake but I'm sure the coaches are more worried about the contribution. 

1 minute ago, Red and Blue realist said:

Fyfe and Dangerfield are almost universally acknowledge as the 2 or 2 of the best players in the comp and they both are pretty ordinary kicks - but they still do a ton of damage. I don't care about the odd mistake as long as the overall contribution is positive. If one of the Macs take a brilliant goal saving intercept mark, try and run the ball from defense then miss a target, I'm remembering the intercept mark and non-goal rather than the mistake. I know most will only focus on the mistake but I'm sure the coaches are more worried about the contribution. 

That's fine but i certainly think they need to improve, I see this as the biggest weakness of 4-5 players in our best 22 and often the odd mistake ends up being an opposition goal, if that happens a couple of times a game it makes it tough. 

10 minutes ago, Dr evil said:

That's fine but i certainly think they need to improve, I see this as the biggest weakness of 4-5 players in our best 22 and often the odd mistake ends up being an opposition goal, if that happens a couple of times a game it makes it tough. 

I didn't say they need not improve, in fact one of the things I loved about the game on the weekend was how much Jonesy seemed to have improved his kicking. What I was saying was there seems to be an unnatural obsession about mistakes as compared to the good things the players do. Some players in particular seem to be the target if they miss even one kick in a game. I love players who take the game on and if they make the odd mistake so be it.

2 minutes ago, Dr evil said:

That's fine but i certainly think they need to improve, I see this as the biggest weakness of 4-5 players in our best 22 and often the odd mistake ends up being an opposition goal, if that happens a couple of times a game it makes it tough. 

Alot of it is also about who we surround these average ball users with. We have really struggled in the past with these 4-5 players plus another 15 ontop of that who cant hit the side of a barn. Now we have those 4/5 and the rest fo the team is players with real tallent by foot. Players like Lewis, Hibbard, Salam, Jones, Watts, Hogan, Garlett, Jetta, Stretch and even Hannan was good for a first gamer (fair judgment on bigger sample). These guys will make life easier for the few shocking kickers because the mistakes get spread out. When we had Fawley kick to Tmac to Howe to M Jones to Bail no wonder we had so many turnovers. Now we have players who split it up a bit we dont have to deal with 6 ordinary kicks in a row

I think you're correct but maybe also a little over critical.

I think generally disposal will improve with experience and more time playing together as a group. They're still quite young as a group which can contribute to errors.

I also think it's more important to generate opportunities to score and gain possession to create the opportunity to score rather  pure  possession.

Im happy with our current direction. You're overall point has merrit but in todays zone and pressure game turovers will happen continue to happen for all teams quite a lot.

Structure is very important in this modern era.

 

Edited March 30, 20178 yr by Unleash Hell

45 minutes ago, Red and Blue realist said:

Fyfe and Dangerfield are almost universally acknowledge as the 2 or 2 of the best players in the comp and they both are pretty ordinary kicks - but they still do a ton of damage. I don't care about the odd mistake as long as the overall contribution is positive. If one of the Macs take a brilliant goal saving intercept mark, try and run the ball from defense then miss a target, I'm remembering the intercept mark and non-goal rather than the mistake. I know most will only focus on the mistake but I'm sure the coaches are more worried about the contribution. 

I never know why posters name outliers.

Fyfe and Dangerfield win games off of their own boot and are elite in almost every facet of the game so in that regard the fact that they don't use the ball in open play all that well is almost insignificant.

Agree with the opening post, we definitely need another couple of elite ball users in our side imo. 

Edited March 30, 20178 yr by stevethemanjordan

58 minutes ago, Red and Blue realist said:

I didn't say they need not improve, in fact one of the things I loved about the game on the weekend was how much Jonesy seemed to have improved his kicking. What I was saying was there seems to be an unnatural obsession about mistakes as compared to the good things the players do. Some players in particular seem to be the target if they miss even one kick in a game. I love players who take the game on and if they make the odd mistake so be it.

I suppose my point is that unless those mistakes are becoming less and less common I think there is cause for concern

Sorry.I saw the title of this thread and thought it was some sort of blokey survey!

I believe Dom and jack are actully very good kicks when they are mindful of their limitations, same with the mcdonald brothers. 

I reckon if goody was worried he wouldn't pick them.

57 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I never know why posters name outliers.

Fyfe and Dangerfield win games off of their own boot and are elite in almost every facet of the game so in that regard the fact that they don't use the ball in open play all that well is almost insignificant.

Agree with the opening post, we definitely need another couple of elite ball users in our side imo. 

You missed the point of using Fyfe and danger, I could have used any player. No one is perfect, but if they make a positive contrition that over rides the odd mistake that is made. If not they get dropped it's simple.

AW listed above all the good users we've got in the team, but I think the Mac's have improved and never had an issue with Tyson, his mistakes come when he tries too much, with experience and as we get better the odd mistake he makes will be minimised

Every extra little percentage point improvement in disposal makes a difference, and I think a lot of our team are just a little below par at the moment.

The bizarre clangers are what breaks my brain (and inspires an awful lot of rage and frenzied whipping on here). Tom McDonald can finish a game with 85% disposal efficiency, but that other 15% might include a couple of the most disasterous and unnecessary clangers possible. Dom Tyson can plug away being an above-average midfielder all day with respectable enough efficiency, but then just have total bollocks moments that make a clearance for us effectively become a clearance for our opponents.

But for the rest of it, I always have a lot of sympathy for the kicker, especially coming out of defence. As everyone will recall, we've had a long period of really seriously struggling to get the ball moving effectively across and from half-back, with stagnant and ineffective play ending in the inevitable throw in, ball up or flat-out turnover. I've always felt that the problem lay as much in the lack of movement, the lack of giving good options, as it did with the actual kicker.

Is there anything more miserable for a footy supporter than seeing your defending take the ball, look up for options, and then have to stop and stare and try to find something 'better-than-cr4p' to kick to... and you just know nothing good is going to happen, and so does the defender with the ball. It's like nobody else is moving, they've all found roughly their designated areas to stand in and they are happy there now. It's like building a zone defence against yourself.

It's another reason I'm excited about the our big group between and around the arcs who instinctively stay mobile, give leads, give options, run in support. A distinct lack of spectators and passengers.

2 hours ago, Dr evil said:

That's fine but i certainly think they need to improve, I see this as the biggest weakness of 4-5 players in our best 22 and often the odd mistake ends up being an opposition goal, if that happens a couple of times a game it makes it tough. 

The stats for the mac brothers are actually pretty good. They both look awkward kicking a ball and I think fall victim to the fact their mistakes cost goals whereas further up the ground they don't so much. 

Both can certainly improve but they aren't as bad as it is made out. 

Tyson's left foot kicking his fine, his decision making is very dubious.

Want to see average ball use. Watch this pies v tigers game. 

I reckon TMac is a good kick!

On the positive side, Nathan Jones was originally a poor kick.  Then he started kicking more goals then points.  Now his 50m kicks from HB are flat and centimeter-perfect.  I would have given him BOG last week for this.

In the meantime, the boys should not try to kick the ball to far.

I see this quintessentially as a champion team vs a team of champions discussion. We all have strengths and weaknesses; a great team cover each other's weaknesses and collectively prevail. The work rate shown in the last 3 qtrs last week demonstrated to me that this team plays for each other (I see no howling about Lewis's 6 clangers, for instance). Players will work on their own areas of weakness, but it's the team acts that win you a flag (Johannisen won a NS medal despite average possessions).

Edited March 30, 20178 yr by small but forward

Collingwood and Richmond are reading this thread thinking "one day we too can get to average."

 

 

PS: Prestia 43% eff. lol

18 hours ago, Dr evil said:

I look at players like jack Viney, dom Tyson and the McDonald brothers who all play key roles in our starting 22 but they are all average kicks. 

I think this is a really key area for us to improve, but I can't see us winning a flag unless especially the McDonald brothers improve in that area. 

I know some will disagree but I ask for respectful discussion as I think this is a fair topic to discuss.

As much as Oscar makes me lose it sometimes,  his field kicking is very good Evil however when the tank is dry it can go down hill quickly

1 hour ago, Deestroy All said:

Collingwood and Richmond are reading this thread thinking "one day we too can get to average."

 

 

PS: Prestia 43% eff. lol

Solid player, but he's no star.

Plus he is much shorter than I realised.

2 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

Solid player, but he's no star.

Plus he is much shorter than I realised.

was pretty average I thought! kinda glad we didnt have a bigger crack at him

If you want to see average disposal by foot watch no. 6 against saints. More misses than hits.

TMac can run, change direction and look for good, open options that can start many attacking thrusts from the backline. Occasional execution lapses should not detract from his attempts to start attacks. There are many other clubs who would love to have a FB who could play 3 roles as a one on one gorilla, as a interceptor and and as a play maker.

OMac is still learning the craft. If he copies his brother then we will have 2 top defenders who will be the envy of all other teams. It's will be like having 2 Jesses.