The OX slams 'crap' Demons.

[Satyriconhome 9,986]

3 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

You do hang around the club

David Neitz was working at Whorethorn last time i looked 

I dont wish to be President i would just like to hear him speak to the Supporters a few times a year, played for Meth Coke a few times. 

Good Melbourne Boy...

 

I have spoken to him a couple of times this year, same with PJ, must be you

Didn't say David N was working with the club tsk tsk get it right

Again you still haven't told me the reasons teams between 1965 and say 2005 didn't win a flag, Cam Schwab, the VFL? the AFL?  all the other teams were on drugs?

[Satyriconhome 9,986]

6 minutes ago, old dee said:

This may sound overly simplistic Saty but all the above played in sides that did not have enough players like themselves.

Like now we have 6-7 players who would get a game in the top teams plus a bunch of kids and then a bunch of ordinary players.

The list has improved but it is still a way of being a  top eight team.

So it was poor development and recruiting   sounds familiar 

[Wiseblood 24,636]

27 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

If somebody could let me know why teams containing Flower, Farmer, Viney, Davey, the Ox et al all failed to win a flag, I would be interested to know, to compare the reasons with the present team

Don't you know?

You could argue bad luck was involved.  In 1987 we were a huge chance, and we all know why we didn't make it to the big dance that year.  We seriously could have knocked Carlton off that year.  We deserved to go to the Grand Final.

In 1998 we got a rubbish draw, one that should NEVER have happened - having beaten Adelaide and St. Kilda we were forced to face North instead of playing the Swans, which Adelaide were able to do.  Had it been a North vs. Dees GF, could we have won?  Probably not, but who knows.

In 2000 we faced the juggernaut that was Essendon.  We did very well to get to the GF but didn't have the experience to roll them and, as much as we despise them, they deserved the flag that year. 

You could even argue that, in '94, we were close if not for a few injuries and having to play the Eagles in Perth in the Prelim.  A fully fit Allen Jakovich running rampant up forward could have swung things our way, but again, we'll never know.

You can throw severe injuries in to the mix with this one as well, especially during the mid to late 90's.  Plenty of talent cut down in their prime and, when they returned, they were never the same players.

Many of what I've mentioned above is vastly different to what the club is now.  The above teams had talent to burn and they got the absolute best out of their abilities.  Are we getting that now?  I'd say no.  It's all there but it's yet to either come out or come together as a unit.

Those teams above WERE good enough in my opinion, but it takes more than good side to get to there.  Our current side isn't even close to that yet.

Edit - as an aside, our development was very good back in those days.  Plenty of the players who came through to play in the senior side started off in the U19's.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Wiseblood

[Wiseblood 24,636]

1 minute ago, Sir Why You Little said:

If Satyr doesn't know the answer then he wasn't there. Which wouldn't suprise me at all

Blow in with a loud voice

Just to go slightly off topic, we had some serious talent in those years.  If we had a little extra luck we could have snagged a flag somewhere in there.  When you look at those who went down with injuries you can see why we missed out.  Such a shame.

[Sir Why You Little 34,695]

1 minute ago, Wiseblood said:

Just to go slightly off topic, we had some serious talent in those years.  If we had a little extra luck we could have snagged a flag somewhere in there.  When you look at those who went down with injuries you can see why we missed out.  Such a shame.

Of course. When the Ox went down with Concussion against Footscray in '94 my heart sank

he was a shadow against Meth Coke the week after. 

Then the knee 3 months later i shed a few tears. 

I bet Balmey did too

[old dee 22,946]

10 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

So it was poor development and recruiting   sounds familiar 

Quite often Saty no amount of development will turn a poor player into a good one. With the exception of a couple of short periods we have not had a good list. most of the time we have had a few good players and a lot of ordinary ones.

Hence Two GF appearances in 50 years for two losses.

The rest of the time we have been bouncing along in the wrong half of the competition. 

[Satyriconhome 9,986]

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

 

Why are you shouting, I may be old but not deaf, it is an opinion on his commentary on radio

I'll repeat it again, respect for what he achieved as a player for MFC

Not so much post, tries too hard for the headline

Can I ask why you are continuing to read my posts?  

[Gator 16,906]

28 minutes ago, old dee said:

The list has improved but it is still a way of being a  top eight team.

A couple of quality seasoned players will top it off, but I think the talent is on the list now.  It just needs developing and experience.

Youngest and least experienced on average throughout the year.  

When Hawthorn were rubbish (second last with 5 wins) in 2005 they still had Hodge, Crawford, Michell, Lewis, Roughead and Franklin on the last.  The tallest was there, but not developed.  Three years later they had a flag. 

[Sir Why You Little 34,695]

2 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

I have an opinion as to why, I am waiting for yours, you seem to be the one bereft 

The Club wasn't good enough for many reasons. If half the sides were as fearless and talented as The Ox we would have won 2 or 3 which gives him the right to get stuck into the club whenever he sees fit

[Satyriconhome 9,986]

15 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

Don't you know?

You could argue bad luck was involved.  In 1987 we were a huge chance, and we all know why we didn't make it to the big dance that year.  We seriously could have knocked Carlton off that year.  We deserved to go to the Grand Final.

In 1998 we got a rubbish draw, one that should NEVER have happened - having beaten Adelaide and St. Kilda we were forced to face North instead of playing the Swans, which Adelaide were able to do.  Had it been a North vs. Dees GF, could we have won?  Probably not, but who knows.

In 2000 we faced the juggernaut that was Essendon.  We did very well to get to the GF but didn't have the experience to roll them and, as much as we despise them, they deserved the flag that year. 

You could even argue that, in '94, we were close if not for a few injuries and having to play the Eagles in Perth in the Prelim.  A fully fit Allen Jakovich running rampant up forward could have swung things our way, but again, we'll never know.

You can throw severe injuries in to the mix with this one as well, especially during the mid to late 90's.  Plenty of talent cut down in their prime and, when they returned, they were never the same players.

Many of what I've mentioned above is vastly different to what the club is now.  The above teams had talent to burn and they got the absolute best out of their abilities.  Are we getting that now?  I'd say no.  It's all there but it's yet to either come out or come together as a unit.

Those teams above WERE good enough in my opinion, but it takes more than good side to get to there.  Our current side isn't even close to that yet.

Edit - as an aside, our development was very good back in those days.  Plenty of the players who came through to play in the senior side started off in the U19's.

I am actually in agreement on the luck, but sometimes you also make your own

Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your view of modern footy, sheer talent isn't enough now, and unfortunately we went through a period of recruiting just footy players, if you get my meaning, we have now rectified that

But even though some bemoan them, we have to/must adopt some of the 'playing' style of Hawthorn, it is the template for the modern game

[old dee 22,946]

12 minutes ago, ProDee said:

A couple of quality seasoned players will top it off, but I think the talent is on the list now.  It just needs developing and experience.

Youngest and least experienced on average throughout the year.  

When Hawthorn were rubbish (second last with 5 wins) in 2005 they still had Hodge, Crawford, Michell, Lewis, Roughead and Franklin on the last.  The tallest was there, but not developed.  Three years later they had a flag. 

I think our list is not as good as you think. It has improved out of sight but it is still a long way off winning a flag.

we still have a large number of players that will not take us into the top six.

Not everyone of the current kids is going to be a very good player. A number will not make it and no amount of giving them games will change that.

I don't believe we are as close as you think, just my opinion that is different to yours.

 

 

 

[Gator 16,906]

34 minutes ago, old dee said:

I think our list is not as good as you think. It has improved out of sight but it is still a long way off winning a flag.

we still have a large number of players that will not take us into the top six.

Not everyone of the current kids is going to be a very good player. A number will not make it and no amount of giving them games will change that.

I don't believe we are as close as you think, just my opinion that is different to yours.

 

 

 

Who could blame you.  Not many teams win flags. 

That said, I reckon you need a core 15 players to win one.  Do we have that 15 (or even 12) presently on the list ?

Much depends on the development of our youth.  Will Weideman become a 50+ goal tall forward ?  I don't know. 

But with Hogan, Gawn, Viney, Oliver, Petracca, Brayshaw, Salem, McDonald, Hunt, Stretch, Tyson, Jetta, Jones and maybe Hibberd I'm hoping we have the foundations.  If Watts, Harnes, Kent, Melksham, Garlett, Weideman, vandenBerg, et al can step up even better.

None of those players are perfect, but it's a talented young group that will come through together.  Even Hawthorn's premiership players have faults.  They win their flags on the back of some champions and interchangeable types.  Plus a great coach and culture. 

I love in hope. 

Edited July 20, 2016 by ProDee

[HulkHogan 69]

Attention seeking...

Give me a break

[John Demonic 4,846]

Re: 2000 and the unlucky to have met Essendon argument. Take a look at our defence and then get back to me on whether we were unlucky. We got on a roll but we were never a premiership capable side, as evidenced by our fall-out from contention the following year. Conceding 19.21 in a GF is basically doing a Port in 07. I don't think anyone thinks Port were unlucky to have met the 07 Geelong juggernaut. I don't think Ox has much of a footing to stand on, if we magically bounce up into contention and have some luck go our way ONE year in 2017 or 2018, then we'd have achieved just as much as the OX's 2000 squad. If we don't build a solid defence and foundation then we'll be just another footnote like the 2000 side and won't be a 3 or 4 year team at the top that has a realistic chance of challenging. The OX does not know what a slow-building foundation that looks at the long-term plan for premiership success looks like. Paul Roos does.

 

26 Daniel Ward	27 Anthony Ingerson	44 Alistair Nicholson
HB:	42 Peter Walsh	28 Matthew Collins	21 Steven Febey

 

 

Edited July 20, 2016 by johndemons

[Satyriconhome 9,986]

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

The Club wasn't good enough for many reasons. If half the sides were as fearless and talented as The Ox we would have won 2 or 3 which gives him the right to get stuck into the club whenever he sees fit

And the reasons? Your evasion skills would get you a role as a small forward.

I would agree on Ox's skillset as a player, but this topic is not about his playing days   it is about his role in the media, the question needs to be asked what  was he trying to achieve, or was he just venting, which achieves nothing except maybe making himself feel better. 

I mean he was stating the obvious, none of the 'supporters' at Etihad who sat through the 3 quarters served up, left feeling nothing but disappointment .

But that is it, move on to next game, it makes little difference in the scheme of things what any of us think, but if you think the Club doesn't know and understand how supporters feel then that's your problem

Whether the Club can turn the exciting bunch of youngsters we have now into a flag winning team, who knows, but I am up for the ride, if the Ox thinks he can help then I suggest he kill the media career and go down the coaching path. But you also need to ask if he is that good at coaching and analysis, why he didn't do that first up   maybe it was too hard for him

 

 

 

 

 

[Sir Why You Little 34,695]

1 minute ago, Satyriconhome said:

And the reasons? Your evasion skills would get you a role as a small forward.

I would agree on Ox's skillset as a player, but this topic is not about his playing days   it is about his role in the media, the question needs to be asked what  was he trying to achieve, or was he just venting, which achieves nothing except maybe making himself feel better. 

I mean he was stating the obvious, none of the 'supporters' at Etihad who sat through the 3 quarters served up, left feeling nothing but disappointment .

But that is it, move on to next game, it makes little difference in the scheme of things what any of us think, but if you think the Club doesn't know and understand how supporters feel then that's your problem

Whether the Club can turn the exciting bunch of youngsters we have now into a flag winning team, who knows, but I am up for the ride, if the Ox thinks he can help then I suggest he kill the media career and go down the coaching path. But you also need to ask if he is that good at coaching and analysis, why he didn't do that first up   maybe it was too hard for him

 

 

 

 

 

Go away! It's like listening to Ned Flanders

there is no one answer as to why the club has failed for 53 years  But there is no point telling you as you told us all on numerous occasions during 2012-13 that Neeld was doing a good job and we should all get off his back!!

quite humorous actually...

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

1 hour ago, Satyriconhome said:

I am actually in agreement on the luck, but sometimes you also make your own

Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your view of modern footy, sheer talent isn't enough now, and unfortunately we went through a period of recruiting just footy players, if you get my meaning, we have now rectified that

But even though some bemoan them, we have to/must adopt some of the 'playing' style of Hawthorn, it is the template for the modern game

Saty you are old enough and wise enough to know that no amount of debate will change the view of some on here regardless of merit.  Let it go would be my advice which of course you can take or leave.

[Satyriconhome 9,986]

26 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Go away! It's like listening to Ned Flanders

there is no one answer as to why the club has failed for 53 years  But there is no point telling you as you told us all on numerous occasions during 2012-13 that Neeld was doing a good job and we should all get off his back!!

quite humorous actually...

Neeld gave the impression he was doing a good job, similar to Voss at Brisbane, Malthouse at Carlton etc etc  I was speaking to the players at that time and most thought they were on the correct path,  few had some doubts and in hindsight they were correct but Neeld was on a hiding to nothing, and was a dead man walking when he came to the Club   he needed support which he didn't get.  

Personally I wanted a more experienced coach because I  thought that is what we needed at that time, but the field was limited. Hence why PJ went for Roos 2 years later with 2 more years of damage to fix

 A lot is brought on by the media these days anyway once they smell blood, hence my questioning on why the Ox is going down that path   wants Goodwin gone before he starts?

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Satyriconhome

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Frankly, whether Ox's criticism and his rant were justified or not, for me it is a refreshing change that someone in the media, who actually supports the club, is having a red hot go.  From where I stand, I am getting very tired of excuses and whether we are beaten or not, a consistency in effort and intensity is all I am looking for at least in the short term.  Is that too much to ask?

Edited July 20, 2016 by iv'a worn smith

[Satyriconhome 9,986]

16 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

18 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

Saty you are old enough and wise enough to know that no amount of debate will change the view of some on here regardless of merit.  Let it go would be my advice which of course you can take or leave.

 

3 minutes ago, iv'a worn smith said:

Frankly, whether Ox's criticism and his rant were justified or not, for me it is a refreshing change that someone in the media, who actually supports the club, is having a red hot go.  From where I stand, I am getting very tired of excuses and whether we are beaten or not, a consistency in effort and intensity is all I am looking for at least in the short term.  Is that too much to ask?

So inconsistency and lack of intensity are something new for MFC teams, we all seem to have short memories or rose coloured history glasses

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

10 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

So inconsistency and lack of intensity are something new for MFC teams, we all seem to have short memories or rose coloured history glasses

WTF.  That's precisely my point.  The 'history' of this is far too long.............. as have been the attendant excuses.  FFS we need to harden up and get in the world of the big boys for a change.  

Edited July 20, 2016 by iv'a worn smith

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

17 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Neeld gave the impression he was doing a good job, similar to Voss at Brisbane, Malthouse at Carlton etc etc  I was speaking to the players at that time and most thought they were on the correct path,  few had some doubts and in hindsight they were correct but Neeld was on a hiding to nothing, and was a dead man walking when he came to the Club   he needed support which he didn't get.  

Personally I wanted a more experienced coach because I  thought that is what we needed at that time, but the field was limited. Hence why PJ went for Roos 2 years later with 2 more years of damage to fix

 A lot is brought on by the media these days anyway once they smell blood, hence my questioning on why the Ox is going down that path   wants Goodwin gone before he starts?

 

 

 

Did Ox say that?  My reading of his comments was that his blast was aimed fairly and squarely at the players.  Just by way of contrast, I have a lot of respect for Jack Trengove and what he has been through, both at the hands of the club's administration and his own luck with injuries.  A player drafted at 2 in 2009, with captaincy thrust upon him far too prematurely.  But I watched him play in the 2's on Sunday.  Admittedly, in a howling gale, he was in defence at one point in the 2nd quarter, with the scraggers kicking with the wind.  He picks up the ball on the HBF and proceeded to kick it backwards toward Garland.  The ball would have been lucky to travel 10 metres and the target was still missed.  It has to beg the question, what has conditioned a players mind to make such decisions, given his supposed pedigree.  No more excuses please

Edited July 20, 2016 by iv'a worn smith

[Soidee 1,496]

On 19 July 2016 at 0:10 PM, stuie said:

So you think we were good on Sunday?

 

Spot on Stuie, Vogan Poetry is disrespectful of posters who have watched this side and supported them for decades.  To be 17 points up and then just get belted in the next quarter on a ground we are putrid at is just hopeless.  I believe in where the club is going but we need to win those games.  We still have no respect in the competition and that makes me angry.  To lose 14 times to a club is pathetic.  Our senior players need to grow up quick and support the young guys, frankly they are embarrassing.  Where is the killer instinct?  Nate Jones sometimes is not producing leadership when we really need it, for example at Etihad.  The Ox made some valid points, and all the soft flogs who think otherwise are disrespectful.

[Sir Why You Little 34,695]

8 minutes ago, Soidee said:

Spot on Stuie, Vogan Poetry is disrespectful of posters who have watched this side and supported them for decades.  To be 17 points up and then just get belted in the next quarter on a ground we are putrid at is just hopeless.  I believe in where the club is going but we need to win those games.  We still have no respect in the competition and that makes me angry.  To lose 14 times to a club is pathetic.  Our senior players need to grow up quick and support the young guys, frankly they are embarrassing.  Where is the killer instinct?  Nate Jones sometimes is not producing leadership when we really need it, for example at Etihad.  The Ox made some valid points, and all the soft flogs who think otherwise are disrespectful.

Well said mate

[beelzebub 22,264]

10 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

Poms need to harden up abit.

 

Hilariously I was born there too. I never let it cloud my judgement though   Many more 'filters' I can apply 

Place of birth is somewhat irrelevant.   Attitudes however are fair game.. Thats what Id assume about an opinion forum after all.