Training - Friday 29th January, 2016

[Satyriconhome 9,982]

12 hours ago, Munga said:

I think Frost , Oliver are over rated and i think M.White is under rated and going to be a long term proposition off HB for us. 

Never understood the love for Frost. 

Agreed, still think there is a lot of development, that being said I thought Brayshaw wasn"t ready and thankfully he proved me wrong, maybe Frost will do the same

Edited January 31, 2016 by Satyriconhome

[stuie 7,374]

1 minute ago, Wiseblood said:

Sorry mate, should have been more specific and I mentioned it in an earlier post - I was assuming that we would have been looking at a rotation of Salem/Lumumba/Melksham across half back that would rotate through a wing and the bench as well.  With Melksham obviously out I was throwing Grimes up as the next best cab off the rank.  I know he has his flaws but we need to start winning games of football, not punting on kids, and thought he was our next best choice.

I wouldn't be against Stretch playing there either, although I worry about his strength in one on one situations.  Interested to see if he plays there in the NAB Cup.

Ah gotcha. It's a really interesting year for Grimes. You're right, he seems like the obvious choice, but you'd think Roosy might try a few left field ideas. We saw Vince playing across the backline at some points last year, can't imagine he'll be settled there, but with Petracca and Oliver to fit in the 22 regularly by about round 3-4 (guessing obviously) there'll be a bit of shifting around. Could Oliver even play across HB? The one thing I really really really don't want to see is Watts being put in the backline again though.

 

 

[Wiseblood 24,636]

Just now, stuie said:

Ah gotcha. It's a really interesting year for Grimes. You're right, he seems like the obvious choice, but you'd think Roosy might try a few left field ideas. We saw Vince playing across the backline at some points last year, can't imagine he'll be settled there, but with Petracca and Oliver to fit in the 22 regularly by about round 3-4 (guessing obviously) there'll be a bit of shifting around. Could Oliver even play across HB? The one thing I really really really don't want to see is Watts being put in the backline again though.

 

 

I think that is the most logical option, particularly if they try Grimes early on and it just doesn't work out.  I still think Mitch White will probably get a promotion, as well as Michie, and I think both might get an early crack in the NAB Cup to show what they can do.  White was great in his one game, but it is only one game.  I'd like to see him do it well in the NAB Cup before he is considered for that role across half back.

And I agree with Watts.  I think the backline ship for him sailed a long time ago.  I can't see Roos, or Goodwin, sticking him down there again.

[stuie 7,374]

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

I think that is the most logical option, particularly if they try Grimes early on and it just doesn't work out.  I still think Mitch White will probably get a promotion, as well as Michie, and I think both might get an early crack in the NAB Cup to show what they can do.  White was great in his one game, but it is only one game.  I'd like to see him do it well in the NAB Cup before he is considered for that role across half back.

And I agree with Watts.  I think the backline ship for him sailed a long time ago.  I can't see Roos, or Goodwin, sticking him down there again.

I'd probably rather try White first, then Grimes, then if all else fails Michie... But we're going nowhere with Viv as our HB unless he has a huge turnaround.

 

[Whispering_Jack 27,981]

An interesting article in today's HUN:-

Dom Tyson says Melbourne’s young midfield is ready to ease the load on Demons stars Nathan Jones and Bernie Vince

Tyson injured a medial ligament in the Anzac Eve game v Richmond and this hampered him for the rest of the season.

“Going into games I reckon was five per cent off and I probably just wasn’t as confident,” he said. 

“But I’m healthy now and ready to roll.”

He really looked bigger and stronger at training on Friday so he must be doing something right.

[Fitz Fitzpatrick 886]

2 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

Agreed, still think there is a lot of development, that being said I thought Brayshaw wasn"t ready and thankfully he proved me wrong, maybe Frost will do the same

Lets hope so, Saty!

[Bombay Airconditioning 5,889]

2 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

I said Grimes as an example.  I'll overlook your passionate dislike for Grimes though and say that, outside of him, who is this 'kid' of which you speak?  White hasn't been promoted off the rookie list so, until he is, we can't have him in the equation.  We still need an experienced head down there who CAN provide something both defensively and offensively.  Grimes CAN do both, although his penchant for missing the odd target is well documented.

The way I see it, is that we don't have a huge amount of options down there.  We need to start winning games now so just throwing a kid to the wolves just doesn't cut it anymore.  If Grimes fails then we need to think a little more creatively about it.  I'd suggest Tom Bugg as an option but from what I can gather he is being groomed as a run with player for 2016 which will hopefully free up the likes of Vince and Viney.

 

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

Sorry mate, should have been more specific and I mentioned it in an earlier post - I was assuming that we would have been looking at a rotation of Salem/Lumumba/Melksham across half back that would rotate through a wing and the bench as well.  With Melksham obviously out I was throwing Grimes up as the next best cab off the rank.  I know he has his flaws but we need to start winning games of football, not punting on kids, and thought he was our next best choice.

I wouldn't be against Stretch playing there either, although I worry about his strength in one on one situations.  Interested to see if he plays there in the NAB Cup.

Yes we all know I don't think Grimes is an option and we've all heard my reasons as to why. We seem to have a number of players that have a great defensive side to their game but offer little going the other way, and that has killed us. Yes, in previous years our midfield hasn't been of a high standard and subsequently put added pressure on the backline, but I don't think we can put it all down to that, some of our defenders have also contributed to the problem through their lack of skill. As a team we have lacked options all over the ground so players have been gifted games. If you think Grimes can offer both than I must be watching a different game to you, please don't forget he was dropped three times last year, the first being for round 1. No White hasn't been elevated yet, but until all spots are filled anyone can be discussed as a possible option. Hence I've repeatedly asking in the training reports threads as to who is being used off half back during half/full ground drills. You reference "the need for an experienced head down there" and "not punting on kids", experience doesn't always equal quality. Grimes and H have both played roughly for 8 years, plenty of experience but how much quality? Nathan Ablett is a premiership player. In today's game back flankers need to do more than just defend, they need to be able to hurt the opposition with the ball in their hand and ideally rotate through the midfield. As for "not punting on kids" is just for the position of back flank or the team as a whole? Because 80% of our future/potential talent is 23 & under, so essentially kids. But if we are going to get technical and say first year players, we are then talking about players Brayshaw, Stretch, ANB and White last year, and Pereacca, Hulett and Oliver this year....all kids. I would like to think the whole "punting" thing has gone out the window as most of our recent draftees look to be the goods. If we can agree that our backline could look something like 

Garland (26)  Dunn (27) Jetta (25)

Salem (19) Tmac (22) ????

That would mean if a kid plays on the other flank he is surrounded by experienced players. Salem might only be 19 but we all know he can hold his own and is poised to explode this year. This is not a case of loading the whole backline with kids. 

As for who can play that position, I would think White or Stretch but we could also try ANB or as you suggested Bugg. And next year when Melsham returns I'd have Jetta's position in danger. We could look something like 

White Dunn Garland

Salem Tmac Melksham

People doubt ANB's speed and disposal, you can break lines by run and carry just as you can break lines with precision kicking. ANB is no mug he has the makings of a decent player. We can't just rely on Salem, what happens if he gets injured or shutdown, it's about multiple options.

 

 

 

[Whispering_Jack 27,981]

If anyone's wondering about Heritier Lumumba's cameo appearance at training on Friday, there's an Instagram post from Melbourne strength and conditioning manager Rob Jackson with a photograph of The Prince doing a rehab session at the Casey Race Sports & Aquatic Centre which is just down the road from Casey Fields. Jackson's comment is that Lumumba is a "remarkably quick healer. Some great genetics combined with diligent behaviours."

 

[Bombay Airconditioning 5,889]

8 minutes ago, Whispering_Jack said:

If anyone's wondering about Heritier Lumumba's cameo appearance at training on Friday, there's an Instagram post from Melbourne strength and conditioning manager Rob Jackson with a photograph of The Prince doing a rehab session at the Casey Race Sports & Aquatic Centre which is just down the road from Casey Fields. Jackson's comment is that Lumumba is a "remarkably quick healer. Some great genetics combined with diligent behaviours."

 

Voodoo?

[Bay Riffin 1,419]

On Saturday, 30 January 2016 at 11:49 PM, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Look at Gibson, what's his game centred around?

- reading the play

- dropping off his man to be third man up and spoil the ball

-take the occasional intercept mark

- his disposal is serviceable not elite

Frosts highlight package shows he has the ability to do those things.

Lake/Frawley/Gibson don't have elite disposal, it's the three players around them that do.

Lake always had absolute elite disposal, Gibson is a very neat left footer who hit up targets well. frawley is an excellent shut down defender as was shown in the grand final.

[rjay 23,922]

1 hour ago, Bay Riffin said:

Lake always had absolute elite disposal, Gibson is a very neat left footer who hit up targets well. frawley is an excellent shut down defender as was shown in the grand final.

Sorry 'Bay', but Lake has never had elite disposal.

[Gorgoroth 12,321]

It's not elite but it's bloody good.

[Bay Riffin 1,419]

2 hours ago, rjay said:

Sorry 'Bay', but Lake has never had elite disposal.

excellent kick of the football. natural reader and disposer of the ball. Free agency gave Hawthorn an absolute gem for their premierships, right where their weakness was.

not sure if you've watched him play to say that comment.

[rjay 23,922]

1 hour ago, Bay Riffin said:

excellent kick of the football. natural reader and disposer of the ball. Free agency gave Hawthorn an absolute gem for their premierships, right where their weakness was.

not sure if you've watched him play to say that comment.

He's a great reader in the air and intercept/contested mark, not always a great decision maker and of course he solved a weakness in their defence which was someone who could take on the key forwards. 

That doesn't translate to him being an elite user of the ball, Hawthorn had and have plenty of them.

I'm not sure where I said he wasn't an absolute gem or a key player in their premiership teams, he's just not an elite kick.

Edited February 1, 2016 by rjay
added contested

[Slartibartfast 15,774]

1 hour ago, Bay Riffin said:

excellent kick of the football. natural reader and disposer of the ball. Free agency gave Hawthorn an absolute gem for their premierships, right where their weakness was.

not sure if you've watched him play to say that comment.

Lets not overdo the free agency and Hawks:

Burgoyne: Pick 12

Frawley:  Free agent

Gibson: Pick 25

Gunston: Pick 24 

Hale: Pick 27

Lake: Pick 21

McEvoy: Pick 18

O'Rourke: Pick 19

Frawley is the only free agent on their list and in all other cases they have been willing to part with relatively high picks.  In most cases above they also traded a later pick or a player.  Hawks are ahead of the pack with doing this - perhaps they learned from Paul Roos who did it with Sydney.  Draft picks are overvalued and the Hawks are willing to trade them for known quantities.  

[Gator 16,893]

2 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Lets not overdo the free agency and Hawks:

Burgoyne: Pick 12

Frawley:  Free agent

Gibson: Pick 25

Gunston: Pick 24 

Hale: Pick 27

Lake: Pick 21

McEvoy: Pick 18

O'Rourke: Pick 19

Frawley is the only free agent on their list and in all other cases they have been willing to part with relatively high picks.  In most cases above they also traded a later pick or a player.  Hawks are ahead of the pack with doing this - perhaps they learned from Paul Roos who did it with Sydney.  *Draft picks are overvalued and the Hawks are willing to trade them for known quantities.  

They're a destination club, which allows these trades and keeps them from bottoming out.  As you say, they do it very well.

*Geelong and Hawthorn won flags on the back of draft picks (and being great clubs).  Sydney won flags off the back of trading.  Hawthorn have also won a flags off the back of trading and Geelong are following suit in an attempt to replicate their success.  So it's fair to say both draft picks and trading are very important.  

When you get those early (top 5 or 10) picks you have to nail them. 

We've got 8 top 10 quality draftees in the last 4 years and if we win a flag it will be due to Hogan, Viney, Tyson, Salem, Petracca, Brayshaw, Oliver, Weideman.

Draft picks 1 through 5 average 114 games of AFL footy over 32 drafts.

Draft picks 18, 19, 21, 24, 25, 27 (the ones you've listed above) average 63.  To trade these out for a known quantity makes sense.

So I'd say 'some' draft picks are overrated, but early ones can set your club up for a decade. 

[Slartibartfast 15,774]

14 minutes ago, ProDee said:

They're a destination club, which allows these trades and keeps them from bottoming out.  As you say, they do it very well.

*Geelong and Hawthorn won flags on the back of draft picks (and being great clubs).  Sydney won flags off the back of trading.  Hawthorn have also won a flags off the back of trading and Geelong are following suit in an attempt to replicate their success.  So it's fair to say both draft picks and trading are very important.  

When you get those early (top 5 or 10) picks you have to nail them. 

We've got 8 top 10 quality draftees in the last 4 years and if we win a flag it will be due to Hogan, Viney, Tyson, Salem, Petracca, Brayshaw, Oliver, Weideman.

Draft picks 1 through 5 average 114 games of AFL footy over 32 drafts.

Draft picks 18, 19, 21, 24, 25, 27 (the ones you've listed above) average 63.  To trade these out for a known quantity makes sense.

So I'd say 'some' draft picks are overrated, but early ones can set your club up for a decade. 

We are starting to do it.  Vince, Frost and Melksham are all picks around 20. Tyson and Salem for pick 3 and 20 (from memory) as well. 

There was a lot of angst on DL when these trades were made and although Melksham and Frost are unproven most are happy with the others.

I think we are miles ahead doing these sort of deals and our list management is now A grade.  It's the only thing that gives us a chance of moving up the ladder really.

I agree about top 10 picks.  It's got to be an exceptional deal to trade those out.