12 hours ago, Moonshadow said:

You are a classic at putting words into the mouths of others Stuie. Nothing is more certain in life.

 

1 hour ago, Moonshadow said:

So Joe did no wrong and is the real reason we got to the GF. Got it, thanks.

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrite

 

11 hours ago, Moonshadow said:

Not winning any friends or arguments here Stuie. Groundhog Day.

You're arguing against most other posters here pal, do the numbers on what that means about winning arguments.

 

Not arguing at all Stuie, that's your domain. And please don't call me your pal.

Just pointing out that Joe did not get us to the GF and, whilst very generous, he also did substantial damage off his own bat. I'd have thought that was common sense, but if you feel otherwise so be it. After all, you "had a little bit to do with the club at the time" so you must know.

16 hours ago, Redleg said:

You can't give any credit for the biggest single donation by any individual to any club.

 

Redleg what do you think Joe's motives were when he got involved in the merger?  Do you think it was his love of the MFC or was it something else?

10 hours ago, PaulRB said:

Having the integrity to clean up dirty corrupt practices in the MFC should be applauded EVERY time. Take a look the the EFC to see where a lack of Integrity and a disregard for the competitions rules leads.

I don't really agree.  When Joe declared the salary cap breaches rumour had it that the AFL didn't want the situation made public. Rightly or wrongly they wanted the situation swept under the carpet. I'm not sure if the rumour is true but the information I have came from a reliable and senior source.  The game had been tarnished by the breaches and they had been dealt with and the issue was "dead" at the time Joe declared us in breach.  The AFL were of course forced to act.  Joe supporters will naturally believe that "honesty is the best policy" but others believe that the declaration had everything to do with improving Joe's corporate image.  Joe has always led a colourful business career and his declaration of our guilt seems strangely out of character with how he conducted his other businesses.

I think a better comparison for the salary cap breaches is the tanking enquiry.  In both cases the competition was worse off for the exposure and the AFL had no interest in pursuing either situation publicly.  The issues were largely dealt with and any further management would have been in house.

The drug situation at Essendon is in a completely different class as it put peoples lives at risk and needed to be dealt with firmly and publicly.

13 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Redleg what do you think Joe's motives were when he got involved in the merger?  Do you think it was his love of the MFC or was it something else?

 

BB I don't doubt that Joe saw a lot of publicity for himself and his businesses when he got involved in the merger. I also think that when he got the Presidency, it was also about  him fitting in, in an area where Orthodox Jews don't normally get involved. So a lot of it was to do with Joe personally. He is a MFC supporter, but obviously limited in his attendance at matches. He was clearly head hunted because of his wealth, to get involved in the anti merger group. 

I just think he did a few good things for the MFC, one of which was a massive donation of $2.75m, which no one in the history of footy has got close to and he deserves credit for that.

I don't think he would have enjoyed the election and all it involved, personal attacks, being defeated and sent packing.

While he would have got plenty of good publicity in the early days, in the last days it was not the same.

As many of us who have served on Boards and in particular Footy Boards know, it can be a thankless and stressful task.

Edited December 28, 20159 yr by Redleg

1 hour ago, stuie said:

You're arguing against most other posters here pal, do the numbers on what that means about winning arguments.

 

You are truly unbelievable..Just keep charging on. 

I actually worked with a Board Member during all of the Gutnick reign and beyond & i was told a lot of what was going on first hand. 

Yes Joe put in a lump of $$, which also got him a lot of exposure.

Did you know who Joe Gutnick wasbefore the merger?? I certainly didn't. 

Even though Joe was a passionate Demon who did save the club from merging, he was almost impossible to work with At Board Level. 

"Let's work as a Team and do it my way"

so he had to go...The saddest point in all this was that Szondy was a worse option...

 

2 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

You are truly unbelievable..Just keep charging on. 

I actually worked with a Board Member during all of the Gutnick reign and beyond & i was told a lot of what was going on first hand. 

Yes Joe put in a lump of $$, which also got him a lot of exposure.

Did you know who Joe Gutnick wasbefore the merger?? I certainly didn't. 

Even though Joe was a passionate Demon who did save the club from merging, he was almost impossible to work with At Board Level. 

"Let's work as a Team and do it my way"

so he had to go...The saddest point in all this was that Szondy was a worse option...

 

Nowhere have I said he was perfect, or the best president we had or anything like that, I just think it's really poor that some posters are having a massive crack at a guy who put millions into our club, save it from merger, lead it with integrity, increased our profile and was in charge of the place when we made our 2nd Grand Final in 50 years.

Not giving him sole credit, not saying he didn't have faults, but some of the "logic" in this thread is crazy. Apparently everything bad was solely his fault, and everything good was solely everyone else. Crazy.

 

19 hours ago, Middymalt said:

I miss those days at the cricketer arms then March off to,the G to hand out a flogging, Daniher and Northery what great coaches as for Gutnik he's the best president Iv seen in my time he took the club to a GF and from were I'm sitting it could be years before that happens again.

Handing out floggings to the likes of Collingwood and hawthorn during the daniher years... yep those were the days ! 

8 hours ago, stuie said:

Apparently everything bad was solely his fault, and everything good was solely everyone else. Crazy.

 

Yeah, cause that's what everyone was saying here. Absolutely crazy logic. Riiiiiiight....

9 hours ago, stuie said:

Nowhere have I said he was perfect, or the best president we had or anything like that, I just think it's really poor that some posters are having a massive crack at a guy who put millions into our club, save it from merger, lead it with integrity, increased our profile and was in charge of the place when we made our 2nd Grand Final in 50 years.

Not giving him sole credit, not saying he didn't have faults, but some of the "logic" in this thread is crazy. Apparently everything bad was solely his fault, and everything good was solely everyone else. Crazy.

 

Err, not he didn't. It was the Hawthorn members who saved us from a merger. The same MFC members who vote for the president voted for the merger. In his book 'The Urge to Merge', Ian Ridley claimed that Joe initially agreed to a merger if the players supported it.

On 12/28/2015 at 5:52 PM, Redleg said:

You can't give any credit for the biggest single donation by any individual to any club.

He had his faults but he tried and put his money where his mouth was, stood up to the AFL and presided over a GF in 2000. 

Not totally hopeless compared to others I would have thought. 

Where haven't I given credit?

I was simply correcting the record. He said he would top in $3m. It came with strings attached and he spat the dummy and would not put in his final payment.

4 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Err, not he didn't. It was the Hawthorn members who saved us from a merger. The same MFC members who vote for the president voted for the merger. In his book 'The Urge to Merge', Ian Ridley claimed that Joe initially agreed to a merger if the players supported it.

Speaking of the propsosed merger , the 96 merger game with the Hawks is on Fox footy this sat morning,  Jason dunstall's guest programming his take on the best games of the past 25 years ... A tad bit arrogant given he got to a hundred that night...but in fairness was a classic contest and historically significant , and scarily could have been that last mfc game ever

I'm actually not a huge fan of Leunig but there are two of his offerings that someone with more internet savvy than I could perchance link to 

 

you're all individuals : no I'm not

 

 and

 

the one where the pervert is thrown out of the strip bar ( it's an old one )

 

having typed that, I will now revert to the safety of groupthink to which I am inextricably and irrevocably wedded

Apologies to all : I promise improvement in the NewYear and that is my unequivocal resolution for 2015

On 12/26/2015 at 2:54 AM, jnrmac said:

Joe has an appalling business reputation for a good reason. Google any of his companies to fnd out why. Spent millions of other peoples money searching for diamonds because his Rabbi in New York told him where to look. Seriously? Charlatan of the highest order

Complete disaster for the MFC. Squealed to the AFL about salary cap breaches hoping for a reduced or zero penalty, The AFL slapped us with fines and draft penalties as well as players receiving tax audits. Did it off his own bat without discussing it at board level.

People who think Joe was good for the MFC should learn more about what he did and what he was like.

 

 

On 12/28/2015 at 1:56 PM, jnrmac said:

On 12/28/2015 at 1:56 PM, jnrmac said:

We would have been better without the cash and the huge disruption he caused to our club.

 

On 12/28/2015 at 1:16 PM, jnrmac said:

No it wasn't it was supposed to be $3m but he only tipped in $2.75m

 

 

11 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Where haven't I given credit?

I was simply correcting the record. He said he would top in $3m. It came with strings attached and he spat the dummy and would not put in his final payment.

"Charlatan of the highest order

Complete disaster for the MFC

it was supposed to be $3m but he only tipped in $2.75m".

That is what you said.

 

Now answer your own post of 11 hours ago.  I don't see any credit given in the above posts, do you? Even your last post quoted above, conveys no credit, but rather an attack.

I would respectfully suggest that my post number 55 is a little more balanced, do you agree?

Edited December 29, 20159 yr by Redleg

On 28 December 2015 at 10:31 AM, Redleg said:

 

Apologies for not replying earlier Red, I thought I had but it appears it is lost in the ether somewhere or merely a figment of my imagination.

I think that's a very good and fair summary. It's a pity that many see things as being so black and white and can't give credit where it is due. When critiquing Joe it is just mean spirited not to recognise his contribution in both money and commitment. He struck me as being a man of extremes which probably doesn't suit a membership based organisation but he played a meaningful part in our history which not many can claim. 

 

Thanks for for your response Red. 

I always remember some of the events of that time some more clearly than others

Joe stood at the microphone and in front of the numbers men who had arranged the charade stated 

You say you have examined all the options and you have asked everyone for help But you havent asked me.

Indeed they had not and it is doubtful if they had asked anyone outside of their narrow cabal. The supporters were not consulted and displayed their displeasure to apparent surprise.

I did meet Joe at a match (on the Presidents table at a Richmond match) a year later and he had nothing but enthusiasm for the club, no condemnation  with the actions of those he criticised but an obvious pleasure that the the club continued to exist in its own right. There were elements of the Establishment and a new order but Joe never dwelt on that. he did make a contribution to the club (a very generous one in $ terms) and while he was not perfect not many are.

I will always think fondly of him and hope that he still finds some enjoyment in escaping from the reality of his other activities by watching the Dees competing. Hopefully the players can provide some success in that activity.

Joe did some good things for the club and he did some bad things as well.  Such is life.  He tipped in plenty of money, oversaw a Grand Final appearance and had a hand in hiring Daniher.  He did things for his own benefit though and had to go for the good of the club, even though Szondy was bloody awful.  

There aren't many former Melbourne presidents who can say they were in charge when we played off in a Grand Final though.

Whilst I applaud Joe for tipping in a lot of cash, congratulating him for overseeing a GF appearance is as thin as it would be to blame him in any way for all the years we finished near the bottom under his tenure. The coaches and the players own the credit for wins and losses, not the president. 

35 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

Whilst I applaud Joe for tipping in a lot of cash, congratulating him for overseeing a GF appearance is as thin as it would be to blame him in any way for all the years we finished near the bottom under his tenure. The coaches and the players own the credit for wins and losses, not the president. 

Yeh, right.  Tell that to Jackson.

5 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Yeh, right.  Tell that to Jackson.

True, but not apples with apples

Edited December 30, 20159 yr by Moonshadow

6 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

True, but not apples with apples

Neither are "coaches and the players".

The fish rots from the head and anyway, Joe was hardly your "hands off" president.

Someone told me he poisoned the well then left town.

19 hours ago, Moonshadow said:

Whilst I applaud Joe for tipping in a lot of cash, congratulating him for overseeing a GF appearance is as thin as it would be to blame him in any way for all the years we finished near the bottom under his tenure. The coaches and the players own the credit for wins and losses, not the president. 

It's a team thing 'Moon', so much credit for the Geelong success has been given to Costa & Cook. Is it wrong that they get a lot of the credit for rebuilding Geelong? Could Geelong have made it without them? would Thomoson have survived as coach?

Same at Hawthorn. Would they be where they are without the tireless work of Ian Dicker? what if Kennett had taken over earlier, would the greatest coach of the modern era be a just a footnote in the history of the Hawthorn football club?

It takes a whole club to be a success, Joe might not have been the greatest but he did oversee some success and should at least be credited with that...

If the AFL monitors this thread we've just given them the excuse they need to justify a night Grand Final. Holding it after sunset will allow AFL club Presidents who are rabbis to attend.

Tried to do the right thing & invest his own $$$$ ..but another band aid approach after the failed merger were as Hawks went on to build a strong club....