Changes vs the Saints

[nrc73 77]

This is a classic case where the statistics don't tell the full story, he was timid and didn't hurt the opposition. This was clear for us at the game, not those just looking at the stats sheet. His handpass backwards to Gawn (while himself in the clear) was a clear example of this but it will just be measured as an "effective disposal".

You always get a whole new perspective when you actually go to the game (which I did) and what you will never see from a replay is the body language of some of the senior Melbourne players when Toumpas has possession and makes mistakes, makes no effort to keep the ball in by deliberately taking it out of bounds, etc. Answer me this - why should we gift games to any player just because they're been a high draft pick? Take a step back and ask yourself - if you were able to trade Toumpas for another Vandenberg, would you? Do you really think we would sit back and wait 4-5 years again (aka Watts) for a high draft pick to show something, when you have Brayshaw & Hogan going past them in their 1st/2nd year?

I watched Toumpas very carefully today. He is currently only capable of following instructions exactly. He does not have the football smarts (at this stage). Once he is forced into a situation where he has to think and play as a group he badly lets us down. If you need evidence, take a look at the last quarter, when every Melbourne back had manned up and Toumpas was 20m behind the Collingwood forward that took the mark and kicked the goal. He was just way too slow to recognise the player he was meant to be taking.

I would rather have Stretch, ANB or anyone else that needs to be blooded in for him quite frankly. Toumpas has far too much to learn in a football sense and if what you're really doing is looking at stats, you're missing out on the intangibles that win and lose games.

[MadAsHell 4,217]

IN: Dawes, Grimes, Harmes, Tyson

OUT: Vandenberg (inj), M. Jones, Newton, Pedersen

FB: Fitzpatrick, Dunn, Jetta

HB: Garland, T. McDonald, Lumumba

C: Toumpas, Vince, Tyson

HF: Watts, Hogan, Harmes

FF: Howe, Dawes, Garlett

FOLL: Gawn, Cross, N. Jones

INT: Brayshaw, Grimes, Viney

SUB: Riley

EMERG: Bail, Jamar, Michie

Grimes in for Vanders and move to half back allowing Cross to take Vanders spot in the midfield as a big bodied midfielder.

Dawes for Pedersen is like for like.

Tyson for Matt Jones makes obvious sense.

Would bring in Harmes for Newton. Suspect Roos was talking about Ben when he mentioned new players/players from other clubs not listening and that he was the one suppose to manup on Oxley. Harmes will add some pace and can hopefully provide some forward pressure. Pace being the reason I'd play him ahead of ANB.

Michie to be the non playing emergency as I want ANB to get the game time at Casey rather then be the emergency.

[The Song Formerly Known As 6,479]

IN: Dawes, Grimes, Harmes, Tyson

OUT: Vandenberg (inj), M. Jones, Newton, Pedersen

FB: Fitzpatrick, Dunn, Jetta

HB: Garland, T. McDonald, Lumumba

C: Toumpas, Vince, Tyson

HF: Watts, Hogan, Harmes

FF: Howe, Dawes, Garlett

FOLL: Gawn, Cross, N. Jones

INT: Brayshaw, Grimes, Viney

SUB: Riley

EMERG: Bail, Jamar, Michie

Grimes in for Vanders and move to half back allowing Cross to take Vanders spot in the midfield as a big bodied midfielder.

Dawes for Pedersen is like for like.

Tyson for Matt Jones makes obvious sense.

Would bring in Harmes for Newton. Suspect Roos was talking about Ben when he mentioned new players/players from other clubs not listening and that he was the one suppose to manup on Oxley. Harmes will add some pace and can hopefully provide some forward pressure. Pace being the reason I'd play him ahead of ANB.

Michie to be the non playing emergency as I want ANB to get the game time at Casey rather then be the emergency.

Why Pedo out? Tries his guts out and takes more marks and kicks more goals than Dawes, so why would you swap them?

[stuie 7,374]

You always get a whole new perspective when you actually go to the game (which I did) and what you will never see from a replay is the body language of some of the senior Melbourne players when Toumpas has possession and makes mistakes, makes no effort to keep the ball in by deliberately taking it out of bounds, etc. Answer me this - why should we gift games to any player just because they're been a high draft pick? Take a step back and ask yourself - if you were able to trade Toumpas for another Vandenberg, would you? Do you really think we would sit back and wait 4-5 years again (aka Watts) for a high draft pick to show something, when you have Brayshaw & Hogan going past them in their 1st/2nd year?

I watched Toumpas very carefully today. He is currently only capable of following instructions exactly. He does not have the football smarts (at this stage). Once he is forced into a situation where he has to think and play as a group he badly lets us down. If you need evidence, take a look at the last quarter, when every Melbourne back had manned up and Toumpas was 20m behind the Collingwood forward that took the mark and kicked the goal. He was just way too slow to recognise the player he was meant to be taking.

I would rather have Stretch, ANB or anyone else that needs to be blooded in for him quite frankly. Toumpas has far too much to learn in a football sense and if what you're really doing is looking at stats, you're missing out on the intangibles that win and lose games.

Maybe not even being at the game tells the story... I was also at the game and thought Toumpas was ok. Just plain bias and short sightedness not to see that.

[The Song Formerly Known As 6,479]

You always get a whole new perspective when you actually go to the game (which I did) and what you will never see from a replay is the body language of some of the senior Melbourne players when Toumpas has possession and makes mistakes, makes no effort to keep the ball in by deliberately taking it out of bounds, etc. Answer me this - why should we gift games to any player just because they're been a high draft pick? Take a step back and ask yourself - if you were able to trade Toumpas for another Vandenberg, would you? Do you really think we would sit back and wait 4-5 years again (aka Watts) for a high draft pick to show something, when you have Brayshaw & Hogan going past them in their 1st/2nd year?

I watched Toumpas very carefully today. He is currently only capable of following instructions exactly. He does not have the football smarts (at this stage). Once he is forced into a situation where he has to think and play as a group he badly lets us down. If you need evidence, take a look at the last quarter, when every Melbourne back had manned up and Toumpas was 20m behind the Collingwood forward that took the mark and kicked the goal. He was just way too slow to recognise the player he was meant to be taking.

I would rather have Stretch, ANB or anyone else that needs to be blooded in for him quite frankly. Toumpas has far too much to learn in a football sense and if what you're really doing is looking at stats, you're missing out on the intangibles that win and lose games.

lol.

[stuie 7,374]

For mine...

IN: Tyson, Stretch, Michie, ANB (sub)
OUT: M.Jones, Newton, Fitzy, vandenBerg (inj)

Don't think Fitzy has been terrible, just think for the worst run and spread team in the comp we've been going too tall.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

To me it looked like our forwards were playing up the ground.

Then when our ball carrier went forward they would bomb it in long hoping Hogan would mark it I suppose.

They didn't give our forwards time to get back with shorter kicks.

Hogan was double tagged by Frost and Oxley and when the ball came in high Oxley was able to float away.

We were too focused on Hogan.

So I agree with Roos comment.

What I don't understand is why there wasn't a runner going out every five minutes until the players started doing what they were told. That was up to Roos.

Someone should have stayed back.

Firstly to stop the double tagging of Hogan and then to make Oxley more accountable.

A few times I thought we left Hogan out to dry a bit. No one at all to help him.

But at the centre bounces they had Oxley free and we had a player (Cross I believe) free in their forward line. Therefore, Roos was allowing Oxley to be free unless Cross was setting up in the wrong end of the ground.

[stuie 7,374]

lol.

Love it when people think they're the only ones who go to the games....

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

It was the right option for him to handball to a player in space who should have executed the finish better. Gawn kicked it onto the [censored] of a collingwood player when 5m either side were two Melbourne players in the open. Whilst Toumpas could have turned around to look at the option, the slow looping handball he recieved would have made him think pressure was coming so to get it out to a safe in a better position is not at all a mistake. If it were to have been a kick and mark situation then it was completely different.

Toumpas marked the ball 10 metres in the clear, but he handpassed backwards and sideways to a ruckman. That's the not the best option. The best option was to turn around and kick it into our forward line.

[nrc73 77]

To me it looked like our forwards were playing up the ground.

Then when our ball carrier went forward they would bomb it in long hoping Hogan would mark it I suppose.

They didn't give our forwards time to get back with shorter kicks.

Hogan was double tagged by Frost and Oxley and when the ball came in high Oxley was able to float away.

We were too focused on Hogan.

So I agree with Roos comment.

What I don't understand is why there wasn't a runner going out every five minutes until the players started doing what they were told. That was up to Roos.

Someone should have stayed back.

Firstly to stop the double tagging of Hogan and then to make Oxley more accountable.

A few times I thought we left Hogan out to dry a bit. No one at all to help him.

Glad someone else noticed that we have already become too Hogan focused and that it made us predictable and a real lack of understanding among the players at the contest of who would stay down to clear the ball away. Couldn't help but think of the Richmond Freo game earlier in the weekend where Richmond continually lowered their eyes to a shorter moving option when going forward. Waited all second half for our guys to try it, but it never happened.

[The Song Formerly Known As 6,479]

Love it when people think they're the only ones who go to the games....

people can't see Toumpas but for his #4 Draft pick, any other player with the same game (except for Watts) would be praised for "developing fine".

[rjay 25,347]

Why Pedo out? Tries his guts out and takes more marks and kicks more goals than Dawes, so why would you swap them?

Dawes has a bit of work to do at Casey for mine but given the lack of contest for high balls that annoyed Roos it wouldn't surprise me to see him.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

people can't see Toumpas but for his #4 Draft pick, any other player with the same game (except for Watts) would be praised for "developing fine".

I see a timid, slow player with poor football smarts and not a very penetrating kick.

[beelzebub 23,390]

I see a timid, slow player with poor football smarts and not a very penetrating kick.

I wouldnt say timid, just not having the smarts and confidence to execute them. At times he plays quite ok. all brought undone with rabbit in the headlight moments where he just seems LOST out there. You cant be like this at the AFL level , you have to get ball go, whatever that is. kick, run etc start second guessing yourself and you will get dacked every time.

Essentially hes out there only because we lack the depth as well as injuries. He gets a chance to possibly improve and show what he can do....until a better player is available. I dont blame Toump, he is what he is. Personally Id put that as a really good SANFL player

[stuie 7,374]

I see a timid, slow player with poor football smarts and not a very penetrating kick.

I see a player who has improved this year, and is gradually building his confidence and awareness.

I also see a player who will be a fantastic user by foot once his confidence is built, and once the rest of the team realizes they have to actually run when they don't have the ball.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I wouldnt say timid, just not having the smarts and confidence to execute them. At times he plays quite ok. all brought undone with rabbit in the headlight moments where he just seems LOST out there. You cant be like this at the AFL level , you have to get ball go, whatever that is. kick, run etc start second guessing yourself and you will get dacked every time.

Essentially hes out there only because we lack the depth as well as injuries. He gets a chance to possibly improve and show what he can do....until a better player is available. I dont blame Toump, he is what he is. Personally Id put that as a really good SANFL player

His best game was against the Bulldogs and he did two things really well. One was a shepherd which set up a goal, the other was the little sidestep on a flank. Hopefully for his sake it is just a confidence thing but I just don't see it in him.

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

Toumpas marked the ball 10 metres in the clear, but he handpassed backwards and sideways to a ruckman. That's the not the best option. The best option was to turn around and kick it into our forward line.

I was pretty sure it got handballed to him and that was why he spread it to a team mate metres in the clear.

None the less, Gawn should not have made the skill execution error that he did and if he hit the correct target we were out. Im fairly certain 9/10 if an AFL player recieves a loopy handball just outside defensive 50, he would not have the time to turn around and if he did he would more likely be under significant pressure. By giving it toa team mate in metres of space, it allowed for his team mate to make the best choice and execute better....which he didn't.

The thing that annoys me the most is he continually presented and ran hard, but when he recieved the ball and looked up the field there was no real option. Aside from his brain fade where he snapped it towards the boundary line, although there was no option ahead so he really needed to rush it, he was in our top 5-7 yesterday.

[Demon3 2,541]

Pedo must stay in. Had a quiet game.. By Sawes standard, it was a good game. He can mark, and goes to the right spots, is a lovely kick. Move the ball well at Etihad and he will benefit.

People asking for Matt Jones to be dropped is fair bit he has pace, line breaking run and has a go.

St Kilda mids are fast by foot but also by hand, they move it quickly.

We play our best we win, would like to see Tyson and ANB in for VBerg and Viney (inj)

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I was pretty sure it got handballed to him and that was why he spread it to a team mate metres in the clear.

Either way it was the wrong decison to go backwards and sideways when he was in the clear. Anything that happens after that is irrelevant.

[stuie 7,374]

Either way it was the wrong decison to go backwards and sideways when he was in the clear. Anything that happens after that is irrelevant.

He's not on his own there, but at least he's young enough to learn from it which separates him from most of the players we have who handball to stationary targets.

[poita 3,918]

Not playing both Grimes and Tyson was a HUGE mistake by Roos. One day we will get our team selection right, but I doubt it will be this week.

FItzy did a decent job on White, but should only be played when there is a matchup for him.

Newton is not up to it and needs at least a month at Casey to practice chasing and tackling. Dropping him and then making him 23rd man is not good enough. I'm afraid Riley isn't up to it either. M.Jones was okay the last two weeks, but didn't give much yesterday.

In: Tyson, Grimes, Neal-Bullen

Out: Vandeberg, Fitzpatrick, Newton.

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

Either way it was the wrong decison to go backwards and sideways when he was in the clear. Anything that happens after that is irrelevant.

I guess its all about how we view football, I don't believe he should have attempted to turn 180 to see whether he was clear or not, but again you obviously think he should and that is fair.

I relate it to a similar situation where Riley gave the hands out to Brayshaw just outside 50, because he was in space and riley did not want to turn to kick it incase he was under pressure.

Giving the first option with the handball to a player who is facing up the field is more often than not the correct option and I think that is the case for most teams

[Webber 10,641]

I wouldnt say timid, just not having the smarts and confidence to execute them. At times he plays quite ok. all brought undone with rabbit in the headlight moments where he just seems LOST out there. You cant be like this at the AFL level , you have to get ball go, whatever that is. kick, run etc start second guessing yourself and you will get dacked every time.

Essentially hes out there only because we lack the depth as well as injuries. He gets a chance to possibly improve and show what he can do....until a better player is available. I dont blame Toump, he is what he is. Personally Id put that as a really good SANFL player

Funny isn't it that I saw less of the deer in headlights moments yesterday, and a few elite level decisions and disposals. The kind of possessions that open the game up to an attack on goal. Not many players have that level of vision, and the fact that Jimmy Toumpas does makes him worth persisting with despite his failings. Yesterday being his best game, a high pressure game at that, makes the likelihood of him improving with games under his belt very high. How long did it take Nathan Jones to really minimise his flaws? 3 to 4 years or more I'd say.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I guess its all about how we view football, I don't believe he should have attempted to turn 180 to see whether he was clear or not, but again you obviously think he should and that is fair.

I relate it to a similar situation where Riley gave the hands out to Brayshaw just outside 50, because he was in space and riley did not want to turn to kick it incase he was under pressure.

Giving the first option with the handball to a player who is facing up the field is more often than not the correct option and I think that is the case for most teams

Fair point, Gawn should have told him to turn around becase he was clear. Still, good players have the awareness and know what is around them before they even get the ball.

[beelzebub 23,390]

Funny isn't it that I saw less of the deer in headlights moments yesterday, and a few elite level decisions and disposals. The kind of possessions that open the game up to an attack on goal. Not many players have that level of vision, and the fact that Jimmy Toumpas does makes him worth persisting with despite his failings. Yesterday being his best game, a high pressure game at that, makes the likelihood of him improving with games under his belt very high. How long did it take Nathan Jones to really minimise his flaws? 3 to 4 years or more I'd say.

Vision is useless if hit by a truck !!