Delistings/trades at end of the season

[Gator 16,921]

In response to Redlegs post about Kennedy, you said:

Implying because he's small, you have zero interest in him. Not making any comments regarding disposal, hardness or overal ability. To top it off you then insult Redleg when he rightly points out that there are several good small players.

I know it's tough trying to keep yourself from flying off the handle when living your life as a keyboard warrior in your ivory tower. But maybe you can do us all a favour and dissappear for awhile.

If a player is average and small it's worse than a player who is average and 185 cm. Kennedy is average and small. A good VFL player. I wouldn't have thought this would be a revelation around here.

So when I question a potential trade targets height I don't need reminding of the Tony Liberatore's of this world.

Btw, you'll forgive me if I don't take the advice of someone who'd happily resurrect Col Sylvia's career.

[Redleg 38,028]

If you want to have a very good idea of why we are where we are, look at the JT draft and look at the top 20 picks.

Guess who played the least AFL games since and would be the biggest bust of the top 20?

Answer is Gysberts, who was taken over Talia, ( the overwhelming choice of the Demonland posters at that pick), but what would they know.

Prendergast was the genius behind that move and also Tapscott, the big bodied, small player who had no real postion to call his own.

He was also the genius behind Lucas Cook, our number 12 pick who never played an AFL game and a host of other wasted draft picks.

I see Prendergast's time at the club, as the single biggest reason we are where we are ATM.

Thank God Taylor and Roos are trying to change things.

We have under Roos turned over 50% of the list and that could hit 75% by the end of drafting time this year.

We also have Brendan Mc Cartney heading our development program and Goodwin in the wings ready to Coach.

We also have a decent CEO running the club.

We are being given every chance to become a good club again.

[DistrACTION Jackson 6,560]

If you want to have a very good idea of why we are where we are, look at the JT draft and look at the top 20 picks.

Guess who played the least AFL games since and would be the biggest bust of the top 20?

Answer is Gysberts, who was taken over Talia, ( the overwhelming choice of the Demonland posters at that pick), but what would they know.

Prendergast was the genius behind that move and also Tapscott, the big bodied, small player who had no real postion to call his own.

He was also the genius behind Lucas Cook, our number 12 pick who never played an AFL game and a host of other wasted draft picks.

I see Prendergast's time at the club, as the single biggest reason we are where we are ATM.

Thank God Taylor and Roos are trying to change things.

We have under Roos turned over 50% of the list and that could hit 75% by the end of drafting time this year.

We also have Brendan Mc Cartney heading our development program and Goodwin in the wings ready to Coach.

We also have a decent CEO running the club.

We are being given every chance to become a good club again.

Every time I think of Prendergast I want to punch him in the face….

[rjay 24,046]

Every time I think of Prendergast I want to punch him in the face….

I would add CS & the board to that list...

[Forest Demon 4,681]

I was chuffed when we got Tapscott.

[Scipio 5,868]

I was chuffed when we got Tapscott.

I was too. I was also chuffed when he broke Rhys Shaw's ribs when we hammered Sydney. Overall though, he was far too limited.

[dazzledavey36 49,326]

I would add CS & the board to that list...

Lol the [censored] that wrote our next premiership on a napkin with those players.

Prendergast, Connelly and Schwab are the reason we in rebuild number 64527383. Hope they are banned from this club for life.

[Gator 16,921]

It was discussed on Demonland at the time. We had 7 top 20 draft picks between 2008 and 2009. It was imperative we get them right. For varying reasons, such as Trengove's foot, all have been a fail.

Throw in Morton at pick 4 in 2007 and our drafting set us back 7-8 years.

He lucked out with Max Gawn, but a chimp with a dart board would have got one right.

[Demonsone 1,662]

It was discussed on Demonland at the time. We had 7 top 20 draft picks between 2008 and 2009. It was imperative we get them right. For varying reasons, such as Trengove's foot, all have been a fail.

Throw in Morton at pick 4 in 2007 and our drafting set us back 7-8 years.

He lucked out with Max Gawn, but a chimp with a dart board would have got one right.

Exactly... 09 we had 1,2,11,18.... Trengove only one left, but injured for 2 yrs... We got compensated for Scully but when you throw in all the rest of our early picks over a 10 yr period it's no wonder we continue to rebuild.... Compare us to Hawks who had 2 super drafts of 01 & 04 which is basically the nucleus of their premiership teams...

[grazman 6,646]

If the proposed deals come about in essence we gain Jake Melksham, Essendon's third round pick (currently 40) and Ben Kennedy for the loss of Jimmy Toumpas and our second pick (currently pick 24). There's no real feeling on what we might get for Howe.

I know many are feeling underwhelmed at the prospect of picking up either of the two players mentioned, but this is Paul Roos recruiting 101. During his time at Sydney Roos continually traded out mid-range picks for the under-rated, unappreciated talent from other clubs. I doubt that he did this on his own (unless he has some supernatural prescient powers or crystal ball in his locker), its far more likely this was a result of the FD sitting down and addressing list needs with what they could get to develop the list (see below for a potted history). Goodwin apparently rates Melksham and Taylor apparently rates Kennedy so I dare say that Roos is happy to back his team in if that's their view. The net result is we downgrade a pick in a weakish draft by 16 spots (maybe we miss a player we were targetting for, or maybe we end up with the same player anyway) and a player that isn't currently and may never be in our best 22 for two players we think will be. This is more than we collectively paid for Mitchie (pick 54), Riley (delisted) and Newton (delisted). Given that it's the same people in the FD I think it's also reasonable to assume the expectations would be for a greater output from both compared to the previous trio given we're prepared to play slightly more.

Sam Frost is another classic example where we gained a player and two picks (ANB-40 and O Mac-53) for a second round pick (23 Patrick Mckenna GWS who may yet go on to be a brownlow medallist along with Josh Kelly). Lumumba for Clark was more a like for like swap (player who needed to move) rather than a typical Roos trading pattern.

So Roos' trading history in brief: Started coaching mid 2002 (replaced Eade) to the end of 2010.

2002 traded in Nick Davis for pick 21 (Bo Nixon) Nixon went on to play 4 games (3 for the Pies and 1 for Hawthorn) while Nick Davis was a premiership hero (without him they arguably wouldnt have made the GF) for the Swans, played 97 games. Win/Lose deal.

2003 traded out Scott Stevens to Adelaide (119 games) for picks 29 Tim Schmidt (17 games) and pick 45 Amon Buchanan (116 games) was a premiership player. Win/Win deal.

2004 traded in Darren Jolly for Pick 15 (Lynden Dunn - 161 games) we made out like bandits and Jolly (118 games) was instrumental in Roos game plan that won them a premiership the following year. Win/Win deal.

2005 traded in Ted Richards (220 games) for picks 19 + 50 (Courtney Dempsey - 119 games and Sam Lonergan 79 games). Essendon got two handy but inconsistent players and Sydney got the cornerstone of their defence for the next decade. Win/Lose deal.

2006 traded in Peter Everitt for Pick 33 (Jarryd Morton). Morton played 22 games for Hawthorn (including probably his best against Melbourne) and Everitt another 39 for the Swans including finals- filled a need for the Swans. Lose/Lose deal.

2007 traded in Henry Playfair for pick 44 (Scott Simpson) Playfair only managed 16 games for the Swans before injury ended his career, Simpson didnt play a game for the Cats.Lose/Lose deal.

2008 traded in Rhys Shaw for pick 46 (Luke Rounds) Shaw played 143 games for the Swans and Rounds played 6 for the Pies. Win/Lose deal.

2009 The biggest trading period at his time at the club. Traded in Mark Seaby 18 games and pick 55 (Trent Dennis-Lane 19 games) for picks 22 (Gorrick Weedon 1 game for the Eagles) and pick 118 (not used); Lose/Lose traded in Mumford for pick 28 (Mitch Duncan 111 games and counting), Win/Win also traded in JPK and McGlynn for Amon Buchanan pick 46 (Ben Stratton 92 games) and pick 70 (Rookie upgrade) Win/Lose. The motherlode of trading. Overall as a package if the Swans hadn't had to cash in Mumford for TPP room for Tippet/Buddy this would be arguably one of the best trade periods by any club in terms of adding ready to go players even with Seaby as a bust.

2010 was Roos last year at the Swans, Longmire had pretty much taken over and was calling the shots on their list. This was the first time in Roos time at the club that they were inactive at the trade table.

Roos' Win/Lose deals established his reputation, but there were some win/win and lose/lose trades in that bunch, but the end result is that rarely, if ever, (although these are very much subjective assessments) were the Swans on the wrong side of the ledger. My rather long winded and elaborated point is Roos has runs on the board, I'll trust in his track record.

Edited October 2, 2015 by grazman

[dazzledavey36 49,326]

Sorry gazman i know you mean well but i fell asleep reading that.

[BigMacjnr 278]

Awesome summary grazman

[dee-luded 2,958]

You're probably right however what we need to do is to be proactive. Most of these types aren't likely to budge but the world's a funny place and you might just strike one that for whatever reason might listen to an offer. All is not always what it seems from afar/outside.

The better clubs persist with searching.

Youd be amazed how many very pretty girls aren't asked out etc because everyone presumes the knockback. Point is ...you dont ask...and you're guaranteed a no by default.

we need to get into players of interest heads even IF they do not move; if in the future they consider moving, for whatever reason, they will hopefully already feel flattered in our past interest in them, & might have another thought for us.

lets get out & about sowing the seeds of desire in other players, that of wanting to come to the NEW Demons.

[dee-luded 2,958]

If a player is average and small it's worse than a player who is average and 185 cm. Kennedy is average and small. A good VFL player. I wouldn't have thought this would be a revelation around here.

So when I question a potential trade targets height I don't need reminding of the Tony Liberatore's of this world.

Btw, you'll forgive me if I don't take the advice of someone who'd happily resurrect Col Sylvia's career.

maybe you would like some light reading?

this may, or might not suit, but either way it could be useful to know?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder

[timD 994]

Sorry gazman i know you mean well but i fell asleep reading that.

Really?

And you felt the need to highlight your lack of grace with a lack of wit?

What's the third act?

[dazzledavey36 49,326]

Really?

And you felt the need to highlight your lack of grace with a lack of wit?

What's the third act?

Settle your knickers mate was only taking the [censored].

Of course it was a good read.

[rpfc 27,636]

Really?

And you felt the need to highlight your lack of grace with a lack of wit?

What's the third act?

Settle your knickers mate was only taking the [censored].

Of course it was a good read.

Not much of a third act...

[grazman 6,646]

Sorry gazman i know you mean well but i fell asleep reading that.

LOL -The same response I get from my colleagues when I start talking footy to them.

The crux of the argument is when you look at Roos' trading history players like Jolly, Richards, Shaw and McGlynn at the time were never perceived to be as good as they turned out to be. Mumford and JPK maybe were, but weren't considered big fish. Only Davis was (but there were issues and he basically walked out on the Pies) Of the others not a lot was given up and not a lot lost by their trading. Roos is in an unusual situation at Melbourne where we need to turn over and trade out significantly more than he ever had to at the Swans.

For those waiting to land the big fish... like most fishing stories it will probably be the case of the one that got away "just as I was about to reel him in...".

These deals are much harder to complete and can end badly (See Swans trading history post Roos for evidence)

[Whispering_Jack 28,092]

Sorry gazman i know you mean well but i fell asleep reading that.

The crux of the matter dazzle is that you weren't the only one who was asleep. Most of the other clubs were asleep during that era and even those recruiters who understood what the Swans were doing at the time were sceptics so by the time the world woke up to what was happening, the horse had bolted and this sort of recruiting is now commonplace among clubs that have to rebuild their lists.

In any event, you can't do it by relying on the draft alone which is the mistake Melbourne made during the Bailey rebuild - a mistake compounded in that time by our failure both to pick the right players and to develop them the right way.

And after witnessing Melbourne's record over the years with landing "big fish", starting with Moore and Templeton in the 80s all the way to Clark in 2011, that doesn't necessarily do the trick either.

[IvanBartul13 2,564]

Every time I think of Prendergast I want to punch him in the face….

And then do you think of Hogan and T.Mac and want to give him a big hug.

[What 18,810]

And then do you think of Hogan and T.Mac and want to give him a big hug.

Was he stil at the club when we got Hogan? I know he was there for the T Mac draft

[dazzledavey36 49,326]

And then do you think of Hogan and T.Mac and want to give him a big hug.

He had nothing to do with Hogan

[Deeman 1,425]

And then do you think of Hogan and T.Mac and want to give him a big hug.

Even a broken watch tells the correct time twice a day.

How many draft picks did Prendergast have during his time as a club recruiter and how many of them were busts?

I would venture to say that his would have been the worst record in the competition by a long way.

For that, the only hug he deserves is a heavy duty bear hug that crushes a few of his ribs.

[Redleg 38,028]

He had nothing to do with Hogan

Jack Martin and Jesse were the top 2 under 17's by a mile and available to GWS to be traded for compo picks.

GC had the first pick and took Martin, leaving us Jesse.

Then the recruiting took over and we swapped pick 20 for Dawes and the indigenous winger whose name I forget, who has retired. It could be easily argued both were a bust.

[dazzledavey36 49,326]

Jack Martin and Jesse were the top 2 under 17's by a mile and available to GWS to be traded for compo picks.

GC had the first pick and took Martin, leaving us Jesse.

Then the recruiting took over and we swapped pick 20 for Dawes and the indigenous winger whose name I forget, who has retired. It could be easily argued both were a bust.

Lol i knew all that.. but whats that got to do with Barry Prendergast?