i rate 10 of the rest at b grade or better the first 25 clearly are b+ at worst, remembering of course that though a dale thomas or marc murphy may have dropped away but they have been a graders or close to for an extended period.

You obviously grade players differently to me .... by the way, sometimes I'll refer to a good player as an A grader or a B+ player. I use the word differently on different occasions. Many of us do ... "He's a good player" can be interpreted in a number of ways.

To give you an idea of how I rate players I'll use the best 6 players that I've seen at our club as an example ... in order ... Flower, Neitz, Stynes, Wells, Hardeman and Lyon. I'll give Flower A grade status easily ... Neitz and Stynes are easily B+ status ... Wells, Hardeman & Lyon are B+ as well but I rate all 3 behind Neitz & Stynes.

An A grader generally has to be at that level for a large part of his career - a B+ player much the same. That's my criteria.

Anyway, besides all that, what's at issue here is where do we apportion the blame for a club drafting a bust? ... If people here or elsewhere want to point the finger at the club, the recruiters or the player himself, they're free to do so.

As I've stated on numerous occasions, I'd rather blame the system.

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What a crock of [censored] this thread is. People comparing the size of their balls and slagging off one of our kids. Shut this F____R down.

Are you related by any chance?

Are you related by any chance?

No just in need of a visit to an optometrist mac.

You obviously grade players differently to me .... by the way, sometimes I'll refer to a good player as an A grader or a B+ player. I use the word differently on different occasions. Many of us do ... "He's a good player" can be interpreted in a number of ways.

To give you an idea of how I rate players I'll use the best 6 players that I've seen at our club as an example ... in order ... Flower, Neitz, Stynes, Wells, Hardeman and Lyon. I'll give Flower A grade status easily ... Neitz and Stynes are easily B+ status ... Wells, Hardeman & Lyon are B+ as well but I rate all 3 behind Neitz & Stynes.

An A grader generally has to be at that level for a large part of his career - a B+ player much the same. That's my criteria.

Anyway, besides all that, what's at issue here is where do we apportion the blame for a club drafting a bust? ... If people here or elsewhere want to point the finger at the club, the recruiters or the player himself, they're free to do so.

As I've stated on numerous occasions, I'd rather blame the system.

.

Well if your rating Jimmy Stynes (in particular) and Garry Lyon as below A-graders then you are a very tough judge.

I assume you would trade all high draft picks?

And how do you explain that Jaeger O'Meara, Hogan, Crouch and Martin are all set for stardom, notwithstading O'Meara's knee issues.?

I think it's pretty much a gven that any thread in which SIR WYL's posts take up about a quarter of the discussion is not worth reading.

I'd much prefer Toumpas over Morton. Why? Because he's on our list. You support players who are on your list. That's your job as a Melbourne supporter.

My job as a Melbourne supporter is to support the club.

Everyone is trade-able, remember? I don't have the support the players if they're not up to scratch.

Well if your rating Jimmy Stynes (in particular) and Garry Lyon as below A-graders then you are a very tough judge.

I assume you would trade all high draft picks?

No, of course not ... whilst I don't have a great deal of faith in the draft, I do accept it for what it is. If we trade top order picks, well and good, if not, so be it.

It's actually quite possible to dislike something or question a system but be accepting of that something or system at the same time. Taxes, peak hour traffic etc etc.

We're going to draft some decent players and draft some that are not so good - and the draft number that a player is picked at is not always a good guide - T-Mac 53, Morton 4. It's just the way it is.

And I am a hard marker of players - always have been. 'A' grade gets bandied around far too easily. You've got to be a top rate player to get an A rating from me.

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Ahhh -recruitment principle - recruit best mates - now there's some science for you.....(Jack Viney opted for Toumpas over Wines when asked - so I am not sure he agrees with your principle).

Vineys a snotty nosed kid that's been around for 5mins.

I've watched this club get monstered around the ball for 35 years.

Seen all our skilful skinny fast players get brushed aside whenever we met a proper contender.

I want aggressive contested ball goers with power all over the ground.

Couldn't care less that young Viney said Toumpas.

Couldn't care less what you think either for that matter.

Are you related by any chance?

Don't have to be related to know this is crock of [censored].,just like the 3 000 000 Watts threads. we are [censored] not because of Toump or watts. It's cause we are what we are. History has made us this way. Drafts or trades we are bad. Move on ffs. Dale gone for 3 years now.scully too, be we still moan about them. Hawks lose franklin but they develop their kids and bring them in when they are ready. Saying o'rourke is a bust of pick 2 is just dumb. Clarke would not have brought him in if he thought he is a dud. Shows what we know.

I'm one who expects an A-grader with a top 5 pick. Is it a guarantee ? Of course not and plenty don't become elite.

I don't blame the club picking Toumpas. His junior record was outstanding.

Naturally it's disappointing that a mistake has been made. It's even more disappointing that Toumpas is below AFL standard and I don't believe will become AFL standard. He doesn't have a single AFL standard trait,

The issue (read: problem) with Toumpas may be related to the outcome of his hip surgery. As others have noted, he never seems to have any space from his opponent. He can be a skilled kick of the ball - I've seen it at least once in a match - but I reckon he lacks the mobility to create the time and space he needs to execute.

And he would know that, hence he looks panicked so often on those rare times he actually has the ball.

The most important person in the Toump's future is probably Dave Misson. If he can loosen Jimmy up and have his legs working properly then there might be something there, but yes, before anyone jumps on me, I know it's been a long while.

For every one nice kick, his nine other possessions usually are turnovers or to a disadvantageous position.

His speed, skills and desire are all not afl standard, and like others i fail to see how they're going to get to the required level with us.

He was so highly rated as a junior, and all the commentary at the time is that he'd be able to come in and play afl from the get-go thanks to his grounding in sanfl.

He's two and a bit years in and doesn't look like it.

However, with Salem's injury I'm hopeful he gets the opportunity to press to be that half-back playmaker.

I have serious doubts due to his speed, skill and desire that he'll be capable of playing the role.

The issue (read: problem) with Toumpas may be related to the outcome of his hip surgery. As others have noted, he never seems to have any space from his opponent. He can be a skilled kick of the ball - I've seen it at least once in a match - but I reckon he lacks the mobility to create the time and space he needs to execute.

And he would know that, hence he looks panicked so often on those rare times he actually has the ball.

The most important person in the Toump's future is probably Dave Misson. If he can loosen Jimmy up and have his legs working properly then there might be something there, but yes, before anyone jumps on me, I know it's been a long while.

I am starting to think Mssion hasnt been that great for us.

Soft tissue injuries and a team of small weak bodies with little endurance compared with other sides easily pushed out of the way

Time to look elsewhere for salvation.

Vineys a snotty nosed kid that's been around for 5mins.

I've watched this club get monstered around the ball for 35 years.

Seen all our skilful skinny fast players get brushed aside whenever we met a proper contender.

I want aggressive contested ball goers with power all over the ground.

Couldn't care less that young Viney said Toumpas.

Couldn't care less what you think either for that matter.

well argued.

Viney's a snot nose kid who played football with Toumpas in SA - so he would have seen him first hand - as opposed to the experts on the board ?

Now tell me how drafting powerful ready to play onballers like Sylvia and McLean worked out for us ?

I'll ask you and all the rest who want developed contested ball type footballers - I am assume you will lambast the club for taking Billy Stretch ? Absolutely scream outside mid. What about Oscar McDonald who body is at least two preseasons off being ready for AFL ?

Now tell me how drafting powerful ready to play onballers like Sylvia and McLean worked out for us ?

Agreed the result wasn't particularly ideal, despite McLean early on playing very good football and beiong just about our best player for a time and Sylvia's career everyone will argue about but we wasn't a bad footballer, but everything has a context and had we not drafted Brock and Col, the alternatives were Farren Ray and Kane Tenace. Pretty much picked the right blokes, was just a poor draft.

Pretty much picked the right blokes, was just a poor draft.

Spot on goodoil. This is something to be remembered when we start beating ourselves up over the Hawk's recruiting - Hodge in one super draft, then two years later Roughhead (who we wanted but we were playing finals at the time) and Franklin a couple of picks apart.

Mind you, Morton over Cyril, that one is on us.

Agreed the result wasn't particularly ideal, despite McLean early on playing very good football and beiong just about our best player for a time and Sylvia's career everyone will argue about but we wasn't a bad footballer, but everything has a context and had we not drafted Brock and Col, the alternatives were Farren Ray and Kane Tenace. Pretty much picked the right blokes, was just a poor draft.

or David Mundy or Jed Adcock....

Just playing the game - cherry picking from who we didn't draft.

I agree that we should get a quality player with a top 10 draft pick - bottom line is that the history of the draft shows that just isn't always the case.

pick any draft at random pre 2010 - and have subjective fun rearranging the order with what we know now and it will shock you

2007 - 2 out of the top 10 in hindsight would be in the top 10

2008 - 2-3 out of the top 10 ( have a look at the rookie draft - some absolute gold in there)

2009 - 1 maybe 2 out of the top ten

Spot on goodoil. This is something to be remembered when we start beating ourselves up over the Hawk's recruiting - Hodge in one super draft, then two years later Roughhead (who we wanted but we were playing finals at the time) and Franklin a couple of picks apart.

Mind you, Morton over Cyril, that one is on us.

Morton over Cyril ! another nice piece of revisionism.

That aside...apart from the untapped talent that these kids have - even when Hawthorn was struggling they had something that we have never had. They had a solid well run club with good coaching structures in place - they didn't bring in kids from the draft to be messiahs - they were allowed to develop.

I mention Gunston as a drafting coup - he was a kid with a far bit of talent - but he was allowed to grow as the Hawks third tall behind Franklin and Roughie. Jesse Hogan is 6 games into a career and is our number one forward target by a long way - no pressure on you kid !

Simple analogy - put a young healthy plant into crap soil and watch how their growth is stiffled.

Now tell me how drafting powerful ready to play onballers like Sylvia and McLean worked out for us ?

And we packaged them with Travis Johnsons and Cameron Bruces who couldn't find the MFC weight room.

No problem with Mclean as a player apart from his injuries.

Sylvia wasn't a goer though when drafted every-one hoped he was.

Viney's a snot nose kid? What does this mean?

Sylvia wasn't a goer though when drafted every-one hoped he was.

Are you saying that Sylvia wasn't a goer when he was drafted ( incorrect - read what was written about him at draft time - absolute monstered the TAC competition) or he didn't turn out to be the goer everyone hoped he would be ( 100% correct ).

Travis Johnstone and Cam Bruce are looking fine in comparison to how many for us have turned out.

drafting is a raffle.

Are you saying that Sylvia wasn't a goer when he was drafted ( incorrect - read what was written about him at draft time - absolute monstered the TAC competition) or he didn't turn out to be the goer everyone hoped he would be ( 100% correct ).

Read my post again Nutbag and stop trying to twist an argument.

I know what was written at the time and was happy with our selections then.

I know what was written at the time and was happy with our selections then.

Bingo - now you are getting it.

And that's why we took Toumpas and Morton.

Because AT THE TIME they were considered the right selections - we now know otherwise.

At the other end - Tom McDonald was considered speculative at 53 and he has turned out fine.

Drafting on form - a snapshot of a player purely at that time - that's all it is and that's why so many draft picks don't pan out.

You're not getting it.
I want power around the ball.
Not string beans.
If there a skillful thin kid projected to go at 4, i'll take the brute projected at 6.
And if those kids ever met at a centre bounce during a hot final the brute will break that skinny kid in half.

You're not getting it.

I want power around the ball.

Not string beans.

If there a skillful thin kid projected to go at 4, i'll take the brute projected at 6.

And if those kids ever met at a centre bounce during a hot final the brute will break that shinny kid in half.

So essentially, Neale Daniher's request for the 'toughest player in the draft' in 2001.

We overlooked quite a few skinny, talented blokes for Luke Molan.

You're not getting it.

I want power around the ball.

Not string beans.

If there a skillful thin kid projected to go at 4, i'll take the brute projected at 6.

And if those kids ever met at a centre bounce during a hot final the brute will break that skinny kid in half.

so Billy Stretch is a mistake ?