THE SAGA CONTINUES - WADA APPEALS

[Chris 2,892]

Basically noone at the club had any idea it was all Dank.

If you go to google news and search for "James Hird and Essendon’s drugs scandal: the inside story" it will bypass the pay wall

I seem to always run into the paywall for some reason. Have used that loophole in the past but it doesn't work any more.

Sounds like the article is the follow up to the 'how evil Dank is' article last week.

Fact remains, they should have known and ignorance actually makes it worse in my opionion, not better!

[bing181 9,197]

By the way, the conclusion of this very authoritative article states:

"While Cas has stated that it is not bound by the rules of evidence, it is required to examine and apply standards, burdens of proof and presumptions. it is suggested that the manner in which this is done is consistent with that of the common law, with the one minor departure being the establishment of a clear third standard of proof, that of comfortable satisfaction, which is defined as being between the two common law standards. The standard of proof for the athlete is,however, based upon the balance of probabilities, which Cas has defined as being 51 per cent".

Lance Uppercut might like to read and absorb this conclusion since he has continually accused me of mis-stating this position. It is much more complex and nuanced than you make it out to be Lance. Get used to it.

The 51% doesn't mean what you think it means ... it works in the athlete's favour, not against them. In the case cited, the ITF/WADA appeal was dismissed because Gasquet was able to show, to this minimal standard (51% probable), that the cocaine he'd tested positive for came from kissing someone called Pamela.

WADA still have to meet "comfortable satisfaction". As they always did.

[Crompton's the man 659]

Thanks Paul Roos

Edited June 20, 2015 by Crompton's the man

[deefrag 277]

Nope, don't have access. I guess it is a pile of horse s@$t.

Any chance of a summation of the delusion?

Chip just confirms what we already know: Hird was only "the coach" hired to put out the witches hats, no involvement at all with any nasty stuff.

According to Hird, McLachlan urges Essendon to invite ASADA to investigate the club because it “would look better for us”.

Immediately after the boardroom meeting, Evans, Robson and Hird are to face a media conference where they will reveal that Essendon is under investigation for the use of performance-enhancing drugs. Hird’s instinct is to do nothing of the sort. “I was certain we hadn’t given performance-­enhancing drugs and I wanted to say it at a press conference and I was advised if I said that I’d look stupid,” Hird says. Lukin urges Hird to take ultimate responsibility. It is made clear that for the sake of the Essendon Football Club, he needs to take his seat at the press conference, to say what he has been asked to, to play his part.

The decision to take on Demetriou and, if necessary, expose Evans, was carefully considered. Hird’s lawyer Steve Amendola does not confirm his client as the source of the Herald Sun story but makes clear his view at the time: Hird would not survive as Essendon coach if Evans retained control of the board. “My view was, and it had been for a while, that as long as Evans was president Hird was going.”

Hird receives a call from Evans. ­Demetriou has just been on the phone to Evans, livid about what is about to be published. Evans is distraught. Hird feels for his friend but puts the hard word on the club president to back him up. “Mate, you have to tell the truth. I’m a very good friend of yours, you must tell the truth. You will get caught out on this.”

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/life/weekend-australian-magazine/james-hird-and-essendons-drugs-scandal-the-inside-story/story-e6frg8h6-1227406060362

[Chris 2,892]

Chip just confirms what we already know: Hird was only "the coach" hired to put out the witches hats, no involvement at all with any nasty stuff.

According to Hird, McLachlan urges Essendon to invite ASADA to investigate the club because it “would look better for us”.

Immediately after the boardroom meeting, Evans, Robson and Hird are to face a media conference where they will reveal that Essendon is under investigation for the use of performance-enhancing drugs. Hird’s instinct is to do nothing of the sort. “I was certain we hadn’t given performance-­enhancing drugs and I wanted to say it at a press conference and I was advised if I said that I’d look stupid,” Hird says. Lukin urges Hird to take ultimate responsibility. It is made clear that for the sake of the Essendon Football Club, he needs to take his seat at the press conference, to say what he has been asked to, to play his part.

The decision to take on Demetriou and, if necessary, expose Evans, was carefully considered. Hird’s lawyer Steve Amendola does not confirm his client as the source of the Herald Sun story but makes clear his view at the time: Hird would not survive as Essendon coach if Evans retained control of the board. “My view was, and it had been for a while, that as long as Evans was president Hird was going.”

Hird receives a call from Evans. ­Demetriou has just been on the phone to Evans, livid about what is about to be published. Evans is distraught. Hird feels for his friend but puts the hard word on the club president to back him up. “Mate, you have to tell the truth. I’m a very good friend of yours, you must tell the truth. You will get caught out on this.”

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/life/weekend-australian-magazine/james-hird-and-essendons-drugs-scandal-the-inside-story/story-e6frg8h6-1227406060362

Just as predicted when Dank was thrown in it last week, here is the follow up about how Hird (I predicted the players as well but that may be to come) is a saint and not to blame at all. The EFC media machine hard at work, but oh so predictable.

Unfortunately many out there are eating it all up and believing every word.

[Fork 'em 6,983]

Unfortunately many out there are eating it all up and believing every word.

Fortunately WADA DGAF.

[John Crow Batty 8,862]

I like the line about the club failing first time coach Hird by not limiting his mistakes.

[Chris 2,892]

I like the line about the club failing first time coach Hird by not limiting his mistakes.

If he didn't know and it was all Dank's fault then it wouldn't be a mistake would it? Just goes to show the illogical clap trap they are willing to peddle to get the sympathy of the masses. And yes WADA won't care about that, but the AFl will and it is opening the doors to a softening of the drug code. Just wait for it, is just a matter of time, and will signal my departure from the sport.

[Sir Why You Little 36,990]

I have always been amazed that Vlad has been able to remain silent through all this.

What did he say to Evans on the phone?

As a Member of WADA should the phone call have been made in the first place?

[John Crow Batty 8,862]

If he didn't know and it was all Dank's fault then it wouldn't be a mistake would it? Just goes to show the illogical clap trap they are willing to peddle to get the sympathy of the masses. And yes WADA won't care about that, but the AFl will and it is opening the doors to a softening of the drug code. Just wait for it, is just a matter of time, and will signal my departure from the sport.

A while back the media campaign was all about the players. This article is all about St James.

Edited June 20, 2015 by america de cali

[Willmoy1947 4,081]

Does anyone have an idea about how long this case would take to wrap up if the samples turned up positive?

[Chris 2,892]

Does anyone have an idea about how long this case would take to wrap up if the samples turned up positive?

Still months. Just look at the two Collingwood players and the pincher. Their cases have taken months, admittedly ASADA and the tribunal have been a little busy of late.

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

The article is on bigfooty.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/asada-efc-hird-revenge-and-strange-bed-fellows.1101374/

Fiar dinkum, Chip should be embarrassed to be writing this fanboy stuff. Surely he can't actually believe it?

[Ted Lasso 19,355]

What a load of rubbish.

[What 18,810]

Chip actually thinks people want to hear the biased Hird -loving view of yet another Essendon supporting media muppet?

Get real.

Wake me up when someone unbiased like Caro,, Patrick Smith, Baker or McKenzie write a book on this saga.

[DemonFrog 1,354]

Is someone getting worried?

Is that the best these flogs can do?

[Chris 2,892]

A while back the media campaign was all about the players. This article is all about St James.

It has always alternated between the two. The one constant is that it isn't the clubs, Hird's, or the players fault and the only person to blame is Dank.

[jnrmac 20,055]

I have always been amazed that Vlad has been able to remain silent through all this.

What did he say to Evans on the phone?

As a Member of WADA should the phone call have been made in the first place?

I have written this before but CBF finding it. WHo cares what Demetriou said? It was an open secret that Essendon were taking peptides. Gerard Healy is on records saying that he rang the AFL to tell them. The fact they had 24 soft tissue injuries is a tell-sign or HGH use.

Dank had form had GC at Geelong and his reputation were well known..

Carlton had phoned the AFL to complain about what the EFC players had been taking as they had grown enormously over a summer and physically smashed the Blues in a game.

Let's just say its true. That AD rang Evans and said " the govt is about to disclose the EFC as drug takers" etc. So what?

It is all the same [censored] that has been going on for nearly 3 yrs. What did the players take? Why don't you have records? Why does anybody accept for a minute Doc Reids self serving letter that he tried to warn the club (and that mysteriously disappeared until after the jig was up??) What was Bomba Thompson doing letting this regime go on? He was the 'experienced' coach overseeing Hird and the regimine.

What were Danny Corcoran and Robson doing? What were the club board doing?

Its a farce. It wasn't the AFL that injected players.

As for the Herald Sun, Warner, Le Grand etc it is now on record as to who they are cheerleading for. NOt that we didn't already know here. Goodbye impartiality. Goodbye reasoning. Goodbye concern for 34 young men (some not so young) that should have known better.

It is still no believable that not one player spoke to a parent or doctor or friend and who raised the concern with the club or who checked what substances they were being given,

The whole club should go and the staff and Directors should be banned for life.

[Sir Why You Little 36,990]

I have written this before but CBF finding it. WHo cares what Demetriou said? It was an open secret that Essendon were taking peptides. Gerard Healy is on records saying that he rang the AFL to tell them. The fact they had 24 soft tissue injuries is a tell-sign or HGH use.

Dank had form had GC at Geelong and his reputation were well known..

Carlton had phoned the AFL to complain about what the EFC players had been taking as they had grown enormously over a summer and physically smashed the Blues in a game.

Let's just say its true. That AD rang Evans and said " the govt is about to disclose the EFC as drug takers" etc. So what?

It is all the same [censored] that has been going on for nearly 3 yrs. What did the players take? Why don't you have records? Why does anybody accept for a minute Doc Reids self serving letter that he tried to warn the club (and that mysteriously disappeared until after the jig was up??) What was Bomba Thompson doing letting this regime go on? He was the 'experienced' coach overseeing Hird and the regimine.

What were Danny Corcoran and Robson doing? What were the club board doing?

Its a farce. It wasn't the AFL that injected players.

As for the Herald Sun, Warner, Le Grand etc it is now on record as to who they are cheerleading for. NOt that we didn't already know here. Goodbye impartiality. Goodbye reasoning. Goodbye concern for 34 young men (some not so young) that should have known better.

It is still no believable that not one player spoke to a parent or doctor or friend and who raised the concern with the club or who checked what substances they were being given,

The whole club should go and the staff and Directors should be banned for life.

Agreed

But if Vlad had not tipped the club off would Danks records have been seized at the time?

[jnrmac 20,055]

Agreed

But if Vlad had not tipped the club off would Danks records have been seized at the time?

Possibly true.

The only way that would have occurred is if ASADA turned up and demanded records. Do they have the ability/legal right to do that? The assumption would be that the 'authorities' had the right to walk into the club unannounced and demand records, computers etc,. Frankly I highly doubt that.

And if the club wanted to hide/lose the records in that scenario I am sure that would have happened.

If for example, worksafe turned up at my office and demanded records etc and I had been doing the same dodgy stuff that the EFC was doing then I would immediately call the lawyers and go to court challenging their right to access that information. You will find when legislation is drafted for these kind of things that there are loopholes everywhere, poor drafting of wording etc etc. All challengeable by a competent lawyer.

I am not sure it is as open and shut as you might think.

I don't think there is any doubt that AD would have had the 'How do I protect the AFL' hat on and a lot of the assumptions are in hindsight. From what we have read this saga moved pretty quickly over a couple of days and not many would have been thinking straight or with long term ramifications etc...

[daisycutter 29,605]

Agreed

But if Vlad had not tipped the club off would Danks records have been seized at the time?

danks had already gone by then

it's possible he didn't leave any copies at essendon (for obvious reasons) when he left

[Red and Bluebeard 2,083]

danks had already gone by then

it's possible he didn't leave any copies at essendon (for obvious reasons) when he left

That is probably very likely, DC. Dank strikes me as a gun for hire, who owes loyalty to noone (except perhaps his current paymaster). That means he probably kept whatever records himself, and didn't let anyone else keep any, so that when he left, there was no evidence to be left behind at the club (despite what he has said since).

[Sir Why You Little 36,990]

Possibly true.

The only way that would have occurred is if ASADA turned up and demanded records. Do they have the ability/legal right to do that? The assumption would be that the 'authorities' had the right to walk into the club unannounced and demand records, computers etc,. Frankly I highly doubt that.

And if the club wanted to hide/lose the records in that scenario I am sure that would have happened.

If for example, worksafe turned up at my office and demanded records etc and I had been doing the same dodgy stuff that the EFC was doing then I would immediately call the lawyers and go to court challenging their right to access that information. You will find when legislation is drafted for these kind of things that there are loopholes everywhere, poor drafting of wording etc etc. All challengeable by a competent lawyer.

I am not sure it is as open and shut as you might think.

I don't think there is any doubt that AD would have had the 'How do I protect the AFL' hat on and a lot of the assumptions are in hindsight. From what we have read this saga moved pretty quickly over a couple of days and not many would have been thinking straight or with long term ramifications etc...

you are probably right

But it sure makes the job of ASADA almost unworkable.

If they have solid leads that say an organization is Doping (cheating) then the element of suprise should be open to them imo.

[Willmoy1947 4,081]

Couldn't imagine a bloke like Evans sacrificing his name without doing something about it.

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

It is still no believable that not one player spoke to a parent or doctor or friend and who raised the concern with the club or who checked what substances they were being given,

None even spoke to their own managers.

Could it possibly be that the players were committed to this programme, even though they probably didn't know much of the hows and whys? Whatever it takes. "We're all this together, boys, and what they don't know won't hurt them, so shut your traps."

Why was it that the players ran to Hird or Dank or whoever, and demanded indemnity, in the form of the consent forms (which actually indemnified Dank against the players!).

Could it possibly be that the players realised that there was monkey business involved, but didn't want to turn over the rock in case they discovered a creepy-crawly?

"The players were duped." One day this will be in the dictionary under "plausible deniability".