On 13/05/2015 at 05:09, Wrecker45 said:

If Essendon were running a deliberate and elaborate programme they would have had 2 sets of records. One to be destroyed and another for ASADA / WADA.

No matter which way you look at it they didn't do whatever they were doing well.

That's a really good point. In fact so is the other point (they didn't do whatever they were doing well).

The funny thing about records is the focus has been on the fact that they may have played a role in a guilty finding. But if they did indeed show the players were injected with legal drugs the EFC would probably have never been charged (unless they were clearly bogus).

Records were obviously kept (and later destroyed?)

The media should have been all over that part of it right from the word go but our media sold out long ago - we should never have expected them to be unbiased and transparent. The cover-up (destroyed records or lost records?) was very public yet it was somehow believed (and still is believed by a large percentage of people) Normally cover-ups need to be unearthed - not this one. It was right in our face.

The public have been deceived to a point that they don't know what to believe - of course, the AFL & the EFC played on the fact that the public they are dealing with is a footy adoring public - "Tell 'em what they want to hear."

Nice to see Whateley finally jump on the right side but he doesn't get my congratulations - he likes jumping on the strong suit and should have shown some real courage and stuck his neck out when he could have. Don't trust him or any of them really. I guess it's better late than never but most of our footy media have been on the other side of the ledger until now. There may be more like Whateley who switch sides.

As more details come to light the pendulum will switch with regards to public opinion. We need an open hearing and some stuff to come out before the hearing for that to happen (it might come from 1 or 2 of the players - especially those players not listed anymore)

The release of the players names (albeit for 24hrs) was an interesting development

.

  On 13/05/2015 at 03:28, monoccular said:

Footy clubs keep records of everything regarding every player. Weight, height, what they eat, when they pee, what they pee, running, jumping.....yet when doing an illegal unconscionable human experiment ...."I know nothing"!

Absolutely incredible.

Absolutely reprehensible

Absolutely illegal..

paper paper - munchy munchy

computer computer - wipey wipey

This crap will drag on for another 2 years and I bet we will still be where we are now. Not guilty. Looks like another season to be hijacked. Fark me.

  On 13/05/2015 at 06:27, S.R.J said:

This crap will drag on for another 2 years and I bet we will still be where we are now. Not guilty. Looks like another season to be hijacked. Fark me.

2 years... way longer than that.

Will go on for another decade at least once players start suing he club. The fallout will be endless. Not to mention the Essendon players blood samples are in storage forever and can be tested any time a new test is developed for certain compounds.

I for one welcome ithe ongoing saga, its beautiful to watch Essenscum in constant turmoil.

Putting on my devious mind, If I was running a illegal supplements program I would keep records to assess and improve the program, but they would either be...

1. Kept in a way that could be very easily, quickly and permanently destroyed (ie on paper, only one copy and always in my own possession). Then we can play they "Oh dear, the records seem to have gone missing" card.

OR

2. Kept on computers for all to see, but I would remove all references to the illegal substances, and replace them with legal, easily explainable substances and I would record dosages as appropriate dosages for the legal substances (ie dosages have to make sense and can't imply or be linked in any way to the actual illegal substance being used). In EFC case, I'd replace TB4 with say Mangesium and record a dosage of 400mg (normal for adult males) instead of 4mg (appropriate for TB4). Make the program look squeaky clean.

I definitely wouldn't have a spreadsheet with the actual program details on it.

We hear a lot about the stress caused to players being named by CAS. What about the stress of those who were on the list but have not been accused? They will be relieved that it is now known to everyone that they are definitely innocent.

WORLD RECORD CASE

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-34-to-set-world-precedent-former-asada-boss-richard-ings-20150513-gh0s9p.html

edit:

From the Age article

The matter is unprecedented because it will be the first time that WADA has appeared before CAS prosecuting an allegation of anti-doping violations against several players without the benefit of a positive drug test, Ings said. He said it was likely WADA believed there had been violations at Essendon and viewed the AFL tribunal's decision as setting a precedent which would be followed elsewhere.

  On 13/05/2015 at 06:49, ManDee said:

WORLD RECORD CASE

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-34-to-set-world-precedent-former-asada-boss-richard-ings-20150513-gh0s9p.html

WADA looking to set a precedent

This is going to get really ugly for Essendon

  On 13/05/2015 at 06:49, ManDee said:

WORLD RECORD CASE

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/essendon-34-to-set-world-precedent-former-asada-boss-richard-ings-20150513-gh0s9p.html

edit:

From the Age article

The matter is unprecedented because it will be the first time that WADA has appeared before CAS prosecuting an allegation of anti-doping violations against several players without the benefit of a positive drug test, Ings said. He said it was likely WADA believed there had been violations at Essendon and viewed the AFL tribunal's decision as setting a precedent which would be followed elsewhere.

Ings...the new Captain obvious.... any of us could have written that...oh wait..many have , here...months ago... Guy's a frigging " get my name in the papers junkie"......probably shows up at kindergarten openings and puppy shows ...to do pressers !!

  On 13/05/2015 at 06:54, beelzebub said:

Ings...the new Captain obvious.... any of us could have written that...oh wait..many have , here...months ago... Guy's a frigging " get my name in the papers junkie"......probably shows up at kindergarten openings and puppy shows ...to do pressers !!

Beeb I heard that he would turn up to the opening of a fridge.

  On 13/05/2015 at 05:12, ex52k2 said:

As far as the 34 players involved, 8 were NOT involved. Those 8 were the youngest and newest at the club, as witnessed by those who played NAB cup. Why were only the newest not involved? I would have thought those 8 players would have been the first ones to benefit from an increase in body muscle. Look at new players they nearly always need bulking up, but at EFC they wernt in the program.

I believe they wernt included because as they were the newest, the EFC wernt sure of their silence. The chance of 8 from 42 rejecting the program and they were all the newest, you have better odds on Tattslotto.

All this guf about the team this and the team that is just that..... guf. that they didn't buy into the program is wrong, they wernt trusted in the program. WHY? If this was all above board why wernt those most at need of that program in it. After all as people keep saying they are a team. A team of 42 not 34.

While you might be right, I can see an alternative explanation. The newest players would benefit more from standard protein supplements and hours in the gym. The supplements at the heart of this program, if indeed they did anything positive, probably only did so at the margins for athletes who were already bulked up (legally).

Ssssooooo what are WADA going to go after them for? Is it just an appeal on TB4 or on whatever else they "may" have taken that was against WADA rules at that time?

Does anyone really believe Zaharakis is scared of needles?

  On 13/05/2015 at 07:59, Dale said:

Does anyone really believe Zaharakis is scared of needles?

Hird he is !!

  On 13/05/2015 at 07:59, Dale said:

Does anyone really believe Zaharakis is scared of needles?

I don't believe he actually is, but I do believe it's the lie he told the club to get out of having the injections. I see it as a way of opting out of the programme without having to put his hand up and saying "no, I don't want to be a part of this" and risk ostracism, or appear to not be doing as his told by his bosses.

  On 13/05/2015 at 05:46, Lucifer said:

Hey Chris. Your comments seem both informed and considered (unlike some of us who are rather zealous on this subject - me included).

Without giving anything away are you close to/have experience with anti-doping cases, ASADA etc

Would you like to hazard a guess on the appeal outcome...reading between the lines of your posts, it would appear WADA will win the appeal.

Not close to either, just a past athlete, not footy, who went through the WADA training many moons ago so have a keen interest. I was never tested but got to the edges of WADA's radar in my youth.

  On 13/05/2015 at 06:33, S_T said:

Putting on my devious mind, If I was running a illegal supplements program I would keep records to assess and improve the program, but they would either be...

1. Kept in a way that could be very easily, quickly and permanently destroyed (ie on paper, only one copy and always in my own possession). Then we can play they "Oh dear, the records seem to have gone missing" card.

OR

2. Kept on computers for all to see, but I would remove all references to the illegal substances, and replace them with legal, easily explainable substances and I would record dosages as appropriate dosages for the legal substances (ie dosages have to make sense and can't imply or be linked in any way to the actual illegal substance being used). In EFC case, I'd replace TB4 with say Mangesium and record a dosage of 400mg (normal for adult males) instead of 4mg (appropriate for TB4). Make the program look squeaky clean.

I definitely wouldn't have a spreadsheet with the actual program details on it.

Asada argued that the doses given/frequency as per available records/interview info are in-line with injecting thymosin beta 4.

They ( hird and co ) were also caught in text messages calling peptides amino acids -' lets just call them amino acids' was the suggestion from Dank

  On 13/05/2015 at 08:22, Chris said:

Not close to either, just a past athlete, not footy, who went through the WADA training many moons ago so have a keen interest. I was never tested but got to the edges of WADA's radar in my youth.

Thanks Chris. Its good to get a different, considered perspective and your posts provide that. Look forward to more posts from you. Cheers.

  On 13/05/2015 at 05:46, Lucifer said:

Hey Chris. Your comments seem both informed and considered (unlike some of us who are rather zealous on this subject - me included).

Without giving anything away are you close to/have experience with anti-doping cases, ASADA etc

Would you like to hazard a guess on the appeal outcome...reading between the lines of your posts, it would appear WADA will win the appeal.

Forgot to hazard a guess on the outcome. I think guilty (just). I don't think they will have any issue saying dank imported TB4 or intended to use it at Essendon (which could be enough by itself), but I think they may struggle linking the chain of evidence to EFC and the whole thing rests on that point.

  On 13/05/2015 at 09:40, Chris said:

Forgot to hazard a guess on the outcome. I think guilty (just). I don't think they will have any issue saying dank imported TB4 or intended to use it at Essendon (which could be enough by itself), but I think they may struggle linking the chain of evidence to EFC and the whole thing rests on that point.

how about

They can show tb4 intended at efc

Can show not Thymomodulin protocoled or used

Can show something compounded by Alavi for Danks

Danks business doesn't deal in any other Thymosin other than tb4

Essendon did have a program, did use something......called Thymosin !!!

Balancing probability suggests they used what was sought

Short of any proof to the contrary.......they're guilty

Essendon supporters going on about this bloody spread sheet

ASADA comments on Hird's latest line:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-05-13/asada-refuses-to-be-drawn-on-hird-claims/6468000

When contacted for a response on Wednesday, an ASADA spokesman issued a one-line statement:

"ASADA CEO Ben McDevitt stands by his previous comments regarding the deplorable lack of records in this matter".

  On 13/05/2015 at 09:57, Sir Paul Roos said:

Essendon supporters going on about this bloody spread sheet

Hird's gone too far this time surely. He is implying that ASADA was determined to prosecute EFC to the point of destroying evidence which proved them innocent. Quite a claim - should only appeal to the delusional.

  On 13/05/2015 at 09:53, beelzebub said:

how about

They can show tb4 intended at efc

Can show not Thymomodulin protocoled or used

Can show something compounded by Alavi for Danks

Danks business doesn't deal in any other Thymosin other than tb4

Essendon did have a program, did use something......called Thymosin !!!

Balancing probability suggests they used what was sought

Short of any proof to the contrary.......they're guilty

Still think they may need to show some paper trail between the two. Although a lack of any other possibility may be enough. This is where I am least confident.