Sorry that is rubbish, but just in case you weren't making a weak joke..... Would you apply that reasoning to comparing murder with shoplifting?

BB is quite correct, drug taking is of course far far more serious than tanking.

The point of it is that even though I might think the EFC players have taken banned drugs it has not been proven. If they haven't then they are guilty of the poor administration of a supplement regime as we were guilty of the poor administration of list management.

...and yes I do think using performance enhancing drugs is bad for sport, I would put it on a par with match fixing and there is a fine line between that & tanking (not list management) given the amount of money being gambled on the game these days and the potential for criminal involvement.

Further to that though, I do think the biggest issue for me is the EFC cannot (or will not) say what the players have taken.

you're not saying anything new,

Sorry. I'll try harder next time to post something truly unique and new.

I'm guessing there would be considerably less posts in most threads if the rule was you had to say something new with each post.

The latest piece of trash from Chip. Trying to make a buck or two. Wonder what WADA will think about him publishing a book about the whole affair if they appeal?

http://www.randomhouse.com.au/books/chip-le-grand/the-straight-dope-9780522868500.aspx

I wonder if it is referenced, if it was it would make interesting reading. If it is not then it is just another waste of time, like the rest of his writing!

How about you actually read the blogs, they are very balanced and not biased at all either way, they simply state what has happened and what will happen. They are also qualified practicing lawyers so they would know a thing or two about it. The example given about whether it was TB4 paints picture perfectly, surely if you have tests that say it probably is, and three people all saying it is, and these people are the manufacturer and the people who ordered it, then you could be satisfied that it was TB4.

They also pointed out that Jones was a criminal judge used to working with beyond reasonable doubt so may have leaned unknowingly to what he was comfortable with. they raised the questions of whether this would be the same with a civil judge, or people experienced with dealing with comfortable satisfaction in the CAS setting.

I am sure you wont accept any of this as you appear to one of the many EFC fans who still have your head buried and only heard not guilty and haven't delved any deeper. Can I suggest you do.

This thread is as good as some of the nonsense posted on bf's htb thread - An independent tribunal of highly qualified professionals found ASADA's case hopelessly constructed & didnt come close to proving their burden (& lets not forget the issue of 'manufactured evidence', I mean seriously what did these clowns at ASADA think they were doing??), but it is Essendon people that are being accused of having their heads in the sand?? That's laughable as I suspect deep down most of you here full well know.

Anyhoo, have fun hanging on for WADA to appeal & those blood tests to suddenly all come back positive (all 2 of them). Really life's too short.

That's sad because the "court of public opinion" said we tanked.

Be careful what you wish for.

Not just the court of public opinion. Of course we tanked - don't think that part of it was ever a point of contention. The contentious part was why we were being penalised and no-one else was.

And who says Essendon are on their own?

On a team-wide scale, they're on their own. As much as anything else, because they were the only ones who gave the good Mr. Dank free rein.

The latest piece of trash from Chip. Trying to make a buck or two. Wonder what WADA will think about him publishing a book about the whole affair if they appeal?

http://www.randomhouse.com.au/books/chip-le-grand/the-straight-dope-9780522868500.aspx

I wonder if it is referenced, if it was it would make interesting reading. If it is not then it is just another waste of time, like the rest of his writing!

LOL

Chip Le Grand, one of the biggest Essendon/Hird fanboys in the media

Will be lucky to sell 20 copies

On a team-wide scale, they're on their own. As much as anything else, because they were the only ones who gave the good Mr. Dank free rein...

...that we know of.

I've never been convinced that the EFC is an isolated case. Just the one that's been looked at. (Bit like the tanking issue in Bing's post #1130)

This thread is as good as some of the nonsense posted on bf's htb thread - An independent tribunal of highly qualified professionals found ASADA's case hopelessly constructed & didnt come close to proving their burden (& lets not forget the issue of 'manufactured evidence', I mean seriously what did these clowns at ASADA think they were doing??), but it is Essendon people that are being accused of having their heads in the sand?? That's laughable as I suspect deep down most of you here full well know.

Anyhoo, have fun hanging on for WADA to appeal & those blood tests to suddenly all come back positive (all 2 of them). Really life's too short.

all very interesting sp

but.....tell us what you really think.

do you think the took wada banned substances and got away with it (so far)?

.... This is just opinion & almost certainly opinion from those who were displeased with the tribunals findings.

Which is just an opinion. Yours. As such, it's not "certainly" anything.

The point of it is that even though I might think the EFC players have taken banned drugs it has not been proven.

Short of a positive test or a confession, it will for ever remain so. The best we could hope for is "comfortable satisfaction".

The point of it is that even though I might think the EFC players have taken banned drugs it has not been proven. If they haven't then they are guilty of the poor administration of a supplement regime as we were guilty of the poor administration of list management.

...and yes I do think using performance enhancing drugs is bad for sport, I would put it on a par with match fixing and there is a fine line between that & tanking (not list management) given the amount of money being gambled on the game these days and the potential for criminal involvement.

Further to that though, I do think the biggest issue for me is the EFC cannot (or will not) say what the players have taken.

Drug cheating is far worse than tanking of the MFC type (as you seem to acknowledge), but it is also worse than match fixing for profit or whatever. If I throw a match at the request of my coach, I might have a bad conscience for the rest of my life. If I get injected with a substance which may have long term health issues, I may not have much of a rest of a life. And as you say, the fact that EFC admin won't/can't say what was injected is terrible - those people should be thrown out of the game if not into the clink.

An independent tribunal of highly qualified professionals found ASADA's case hopelessly constructed

Must have missed that bit. Where in the Tribunal's ruling does it find ASADA's case "hopelessly constructed"? All the tribunal found was that they couldn't be sure that the plant that makes TB4 actually made TB4.

BTW, who the hell are you???

I find it a little bit amusing for a club that was so determined for the " truth to come out " they haven't been in a hurry to release it.

for me it should be as simple as no records = guilty.

....and Essendon. Guilty. Shut the gate . Turn out the light...

There are many mistakes in your take but none greater than this nonsense - there is not a 'lesser standard of proof required by CAS', the burden of proof is identical to that applied by the AFL Tribunal & we all know how spectacularly ASADA failed in even getting close to proving it's case(lol).

As for Fahey, he can whinge & cry as much as he likes but he is no longer relevant in any way to this or any other case & to suggest he has any influence on how WADA will decide on any appeal, is simply misleading anyone silly enough to put any credence in your posts.

Well well well. What a surprise. A Hird apologist defaulting to Hird tactics, personified by personal abuse rather than reasoned argument. Why am I not surprised?

Not just the court of public opinion. Of course we tanked - don't think that part of it was ever a point of contention. The contentious part was why we were being penalised and no-one else was.

Youd think some would get that.... i mean its not hard !

Youd think some would get that.... i mean its not hard !

interesting there too, bub, that comfortable satisfaction or beyond reasonable doubt didn't come into

it was just a negotiated settlement and not technically on tanking per se

Drug cheating is far worse than tanking of the MFC type (as you seem to acknowledge), but it is also worse than match fixing for profit or whatever. If I throw a match at the request of my coach, I might have a bad conscience for the rest of my life. If I get injected with a substance which may have long term health issues, I may not have much of a rest of a life. And as you say, the fact that EFC admin won't/can't say what was injected is terrible - those people should be thrown out of the game if not into the clink.

What's the difference between tanking and match fixing? Both involve an artificial outcome of a match for profit/benefit. Both are cheating. They are the same. A club tanking/ match fixing where it's institutionalised within a club would be worse than an individual(s) that drug cheat.

Must have missed that bit. Where in the Tribunal's ruling does it find ASADA's case "hopelessly constructed"? All the tribunal found was that they couldn't be sure that the plant that makes TB4 actually made TB4.

BTW, who the hell are you???

I would venture to suggest a plant from the Hird PR machine. It is a standard tactic when arguments are gaining traction against your cause you try to disrupt through such tactics as misinformation and personal abuse. It is a great way of distracting from the substance of rational argument, the last thing that Hird wants considered.

The best way to deal with it is to ignore it!

No there not. Match fixing involves a ruse, a subterfuge. Match fixing invariably involves a team or player ev acting contrary to the expected. List management only really furthers the established trend.Tanking /list management is pretty open really, it's quite upfront, there's no real pretence, hence the how of practically all understanding what's going on.

What's the difference between tanking and match fixing? Both involve an artificial outcome of a match for profit/benefit. Both are cheating. They are the same. A club tanking/ match fixing where it's institutionalised within a club would be worse than an individual(s) that drug cheat.

I am surprised that you do not recognise that some forms of cheating are worse than others. For a start, tampering with players' bodies is worse in my mind than playing with their or some bookie's bank balances.

There are a range of cheats you can do which don't involve breaking any laws. Then there is cheating which may involve some law breaking - eg. by flattening the tyres on the opposition's bus so they arrive late through to mugging their star players the night before the match. All are worse than cheating by pretending you touched a ball going through their goals when you didn't.

I'll leave aside individual drug cheating versus tanking because the discussion is about institutional drug cheating.

I would venture to suggest a plant from the Hird PR machine. It is a standard tactic when arguments are gaining traction against your cause you try to disrupt through such tactics as misinformation and personal abuse. It is a great way of distracting from the substance of rational argument, the last thing that Hird wants considered.

The best way to deal with it is to ignore it!

Agree, an essenscum supporter, trying the same bulshit with us, that they believe worked with the media.

Pull your head in mate, we are not falling for your hirdspeak.

Smack these drug cheats hard WADA, and remove them from the comp for 2 years. Their lies need to be exposed.

So the Hird-troll has passed off ?

The best way to deal with it is to ignore it!

Yes, I know, but it's odd to find one of these little critters within the confines of a forum such as this.

I don't know, should Demonland only be open to Demon supporters? After all, there are plenty of other forums on the net where trolls opposition supporters can contribute their 2c.