She's at it again

[Satyriconhome 10,857]

I always love the posts that say we stuffed up the recruiting big time, every club does it, unfortunately we are an easy target, here are a few top 20 picks at other clubs from 2007..

Bulldogs Jarrad Grant , Ayce Cordy, Christian Howard

Sydney Patrick Vezpremi, Lewis Johnston

West Coast Tony Notte, Tom Swift

Geelong Mitch Brown

Carlton Kane Lucas and I would throw in Kreuzer

Fremantle Jayden Pitt

And that's just a quick look, I am sure I could find more, Bulldogs haven't exactly been setting the world on fire

[jazza 1,323]

Scully was ordinary in the TAC competition ? revisionism at its very best.

edit - the problem is that the best TAC juniors don't necessarily go on to be great AFL footballers.

My nephew was one of the best TACu18 players in the game.

At the end of the year the worst player in the team{falcons} was a bloke called Ben Graham.

Not one scout spoke to my nephew and about 6 spoke to Ben

It is considered that "most" scouts dont miss good players,and rarely are they wrong.

Its just a simple flaw that at 18 some players fit every box and for some unknown reason,cant go on with it.

My nephew has great ties to the game and completely understands the next step process.To bad some of our supporters dont.

[Its Time for Another 4,208]

anyone that can say we are playing rubbish primarily because we tanked in 2009 is full of it.

I agree just this once Caro isn't out of line here. Roosy raised tanking and she is responding. No problem there.

I have the highest respect for Roosy but I never agreed with his view on the cost to MFC of tanking. At most if we admit it took place it was two games in 2008. The Tigers and the Saints. And the players nearly won the Tigers one anyway. It's down to a multitude of reasons but for me recruiting is the number one cause of the state we are in now.

Here are the remaining 12 players on the list from 2009 out of the current list of 42 players. The bottom 5 look like they are in the process of proving they aren't up to the standard anyway, tanking or no tanking. If you look through them I don't see any performances effected by tanking. There's 9 getting a game at the moment and you can't really fault the performances of the top 5. Jamar and Frawley were All Australian in 2010 so clearly not effected by tanking. Juries Out group's problems can't be put down to tanking. There's no problem with Grimes dedication and application just his execution, his turnovers are regularly costing 2 goals a game. Spencer is still developing on an upwards trajectory, he just might not be good enough but not because of tanking.

Even this group shows the number of high picks who haven't made the grade. Potentially 5 of the '09 group could be gone by the end of the year leaving only 7 from that era. Come on Roosy, move on from using Tanking as the cause of the state the team is in at the moment.

Good/Improving

Nathan Jones

Lynden Dunn

Colin Garland

Neville Jetta

Mark Jamar

Treading water before departure

James Frawley

Juries Out

Jack Watts

Jake Spencer

Jack Grimes (Because of skills not application)

Proving not up to the standard

Rohan Bail

Jordie McKenzie

Sam Blease

James Strauss

[Ted Lasso 19,507]

I always love the posts that say we stuffed up the recruiting big time, every club does it, unfortunately we are an easy target, here are a few top 20 picks at other clubs from 2007..

Bulldogs Jarrad Grant , Ayce Cordy, Christian Howard

Sydney Patrick Vezpremi, Lewis Johnston

West Coast Tony Notte, Tom Swift

Geelong Mitch Brown

Carlton Kane Lucas and I would throw in Kreuzer

Fremantle Jayden Pitt

And that's just a quick look, I am sure I could find more, Bulldogs haven't exactly been setting the world on fire

better question, how many top 20 picks have been successes? I doubt we have very many at all since 2007 and that's what's costing us bigtime right now

[Jara 1,153]

Couple of comments:

1. Caro's article is right. It's not nice but it's right as she is most times. She's been knocking us for years. We've been shocking for years.

2. Schwab, Connolly and Stynes are to blame for where we are now. They employed and maintained an understaffed and skilled FD whilst Schwabby was buying desks and building management mega-structures. Jackson cut $1.8 million from the salary budget this year and didn't impact the FD salary budget, it all came from admin. The mind boggles. And while he was doing this we employed a bloke with no experience to head recruiting when we had low picks in the most critical time of our rebuild.

3. For all I think Robbo is awful and he can't write he's right to question the Roos outburst on Sunday as is Thomas. Our skills were awful but so were Roos public comments. They were just extraordinarily awful.

4. Robbo is right. We've kicked a lower score this year on average than we did last year. FM, concentrate on defence by all means but for all the improvements this is a monumental issue.

5. The myth that it's the expansion clubs that stopped us rebuilding is dumb. There were two years of expansion drafts and we had pick 12 in each. In our two PP drafts the expansion clubs didn't get a pick.

6. The greatest failure of this club was to pick the right players. Put in all the equalization measures you like, the club that has the best recruiting department will beat the others.

7. The over reaction to Sunday is mind boggling. We led Brisbane into the last quarter. We should have beaten PA in our match before that. We, as a supporter group, are disappointed about not winning this year - that alone is a massive improvement.

The media hysteria this week is because Roos FU his post match media conference. The match was awful, the skills were awful but it was not typical of the year to date. After PA he praised the players. After Brisbane he likened them to the worst he'd ever seen. The players don't change, their performance on the day did as did Roos'.

I like Roos but he's not above criticism. He should be taking plenty for the heat he's bought on what he knows is a playing group still struggling with the past. He achieved nothing with his performance on Sunday.

When he puts his head on the pillow at night he knows he FU very badly.

Sorry for long quote (on iPad - bit awkward cutting and pasting) but I wanted to comment on the club's supposedly constantly picking the wrong players.

I groan when I see some of our high picks bumbling around the field, but weren't they all pretty well chosen at where they were predicted to go? I can't recall too many surprises in there. Which I suppose means the fault is in our player development ( or maybe bad luck's got something to do with it, as the other thread says)

[chook fowler 19,458]

I'm sorry I can't see how Roos stuffed up the press conference. He was as shell shocked as the fans at the woeful performance and it was refreshing to see his honesty. To think that professional athletes have to be shielded from the consequences of their actions makes no sense.

They need to know that what they served up was crap and see the effect it has on the club.That's the only way honesty and accountability will be developed.

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

I always love the posts that say we stuffed up the recruiting big time, every club does it, unfortunately we are an easy target, here are a few top 20 picks at other clubs from 2007..

Bulldogs Jarrad Grant , Ayce Cordy, Christian Howard

Sydney Patrick Vezpremi, Lewis Johnston

West Coast Tony Notte, Tom Swift

Geelong Mitch Brown

Carlton Kane Lucas and I would throw in Kreuzer

Fremantle Jayden Pitt

And that's just a quick look, I am sure I could find more, Bulldogs haven't exactly been setting the world on fire

So everything is ok according to Satyr......

[the grint 71]

Found this article to be scarily accurate in some parts for a Roar reporter.. others way off the mark though.

http://www.theroar.com.au/2011/06/14/where-will-your-afl-club-stand-in-2015/

[chook fowler 19,458]

I always love the posts that say we stuffed up the recruiting big time, every club does it, unfortunately we are an easy target, here are a few top 20 picks at other clubs from 2007..

Bulldogs Jarrad Grant , Ayce Cordy, Christian Howard

Sydney Patrick Vezpremi, Lewis Johnston

West Coast Tony Notte, Tom Swift

Geelong Mitch Brown

Carlton Kane Lucas and I would throw in Kreuzer

Fremantle Jayden Pitt

And that's just a quick look, I am sure I could find more, Bulldogs haven't exactly been setting the world on fire

How come where the team with the lowest number of rising star nominations if our recruiting isn't so bad.

[binman 42,896]

Bob i agree with most of your points but i'm not sure that i agree that Roos was out of line with his comments. I agree somewhat with TimD that there may well have been a element of him being genuinely furious and less able to be measured but I suspect that Caro may have been on the money on Footy classified when she said that Roos knew what he was doing and his comments were purposeful. He's effectively put players on notice but perhaps he has also decided it is time to play bad cop.

In terms of Caro's article, it was fine however i think she is overstating how much Roos was suggesting tanking was the issue. My reaction to his comments in the presser was that he was more referring to the impact of a sustained period of being woeful and down the bottom of the ladder (in short, losing) as being the cause of their inability to think they are a chance of winning.

Edited August 5, 2014 by binman

[Little Richard 6,262]

I always love the posts that say we stuffed up the recruiting big time, every club does it, unfortunately we are an easy target, here are a few top 20 picks at other clubs from 2007..

Bulldogs Jarrad Grant , Ayce Cordy, Christian Howard

Sydney Patrick Vezpremi, Lewis Johnston

West Coast Tony Notte, Tom Swift

Geelong Mitch Brown

Carlton Kane Lucas and I would throw in Kreuzer

Fremantle Jayden Pitt

And that's just a quick look, I am sure I could find more, Bulldogs haven't exactly been setting the world on fire

If you do a comparable list for Melbourne, I think you'll find it is significantly longer than any of those you put up.

[Scoop Junior 3,468]

Couple of comments:

1. Caro's article is right. It's not nice but it's right as she is most times. She's been knocking us for years. We've been shocking for years.

2. Schwab, Connolly and Stynes are to blame for where we are now. They employed and maintained an understaffed and skilled FD whilst Schwabby was buying desks and building management mega-structures. Jackson cut $1.8 million from the salary budget this year and didn't impact the FD salary budget, it all came from admin. The mind boggles. And while he was doing this we employed a bloke with no experience to head recruiting when we had low picks in the most critical time of our rebuild.

3. For all I think Robbo is awful and he can't write he's right to question the Roos outburst on Sunday as is Thomas. Our skills were awful but so were Roos public comments. They were just extraordinarily awful.

4. Robbo is right. We've kicked a lower score this year on average than we did last year. FM, concentrate on defence by all means but for all the improvements this is a monumental issue.

5. The myth that it's the expansion clubs that stopped us rebuilding is dumb. There were two years of expansion drafts and we had pick 12 in each. In our two PP drafts the expansion clubs didn't get a pick.

6. The greatest failure of this club was to pick the right players. Put in all the equalization measures you like, the club that has the best recruiting department will beat the others.

7. The over reaction to Sunday is mind boggling. We led Brisbane into the last quarter. We should have beaten PA in our match before that. We, as a supporter group, are disappointed about not winning this year - that alone is a massive improvement.

The media hysteria this week is because Roos FU his post match media conference. The match was awful, the skills were awful but it was not typical of the year to date. After PA he praised the players. After Brisbane he likened them to the worst he'd ever seen. The players don't change, their performance on the day did as did Roos'.

I like Roos but he's not above criticism. He should be taking plenty for the heat he's bought on what he knows is a playing group still struggling with the past. He achieved nothing with his performance on Sunday.

When he puts his head on the pillow at night he knows he FU very badly.

Some really good points BB but one thing I disagree with is with respect to Roos' post match press conference.

He didn't say the players were the worst he'd seen. He said the skill execution on the day was the worst he'd seen. There is a big difference.

And in all honesty what else was he supposed to say? No one at Etihad Stadium on Sunday would have walked away thinking anything other than what they had witnessed was absolutely abysmal in terms of basic skill execution. All he did was state the obvious.

Even Lepptisch intimated that the performance of the players was diabolical. He said the following: "At three-quarter time I said 'this is the worst game I think I've ever seen'".

What actually annoyed me more were his comments on AFL360 that 'you can't set high standards while trying to lose at the same time'. For such a polished media performer, one of the best I've seen from a coaching perspective, this was a really poor piece of commentary in my opinion.

Not only is it disrespectful to the club that employs you to allege that they deliberately tried to lose matches (regardless of whether or not this happened), but to offer it up as an excuse for what was one of the worst displays of skill execution by an AFL team just sends the wrong message IMO. All it does is draw attention back on the 'tanking' saga and results in people like Caro exaggerating the effect it had. It gives an 'out' to the players when there shouldn't be an out.

McKenzie didn't miss from 10 metres out because of what happened in 2009. Jack Watts didn't choose not to go hard at the footy because of 2009. Jamar didn't miss from three metres out because of 2009. Dawes didn't miss a two metre handball because of 2009.

As clint said above recruiting is the main reason we are where we are. Culture is critical, no doubt, and the 'tanking' saga may have had an effect on culture, but its effect on the players' skill execution in a match five years later would be negligible.

I am fine with Roos saying post-match that the skills were horrible, because they were. It was an obvious call. But leave it there. I don't really like using 'tanking' as an excuse when it would have had very little bearing on what happened on Sunday.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,207]

That's what I'm saying, Song, most of those clubs took one dip and were smart about their selection, we tried about 3 times and f-ed it up!

You're rewriting history there - we tanked in one year (2009) - pretty sure Carlton tanked in 2006 as well as 2007 and probably in 2005 as well. They were the worst culprits we just did it poorly and it would be forgotten if Jones didn't pull out of an On The Couch interview and that boofhead McLean didn't open his fat mouth.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Dr. Gonzo

[Ted Lasso 19,507]

If you do a comparable list for Melbourne, I think you'll find it is significantly longer than any of those you put up.

Trengove, Grimes, Scully, Morton, Watts, Tapscott, Blease, Toumpas, Strauss, Cook,

not sure who I am missing

[stuie 7,374]

So I suppose you're all going to go after Roosy now yeah?

"MELBOURNE coach Paul Roos believes the Demons are still paying for tanking and says it won't happen again under his watch."

"Tanking has put the club where it is," he told reporters."

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-08-05/tanks-but-no-tanks

[Supermercado 2,797]

So I suppose you're all going to go after Roosy now yeah?

"MELBOURNE coach Paul Roos believes the Demons are still paying for tanking and says it won't happen again under his watch."

"Tanking has put the club where it is," he told reporters."

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-08-05/tanks-but-no-tanks

If he wants to do the government thing and blame the previous administration for everything - and he clearly does - he's gone too far back. What a ludicrous comment for the current coach to be making - he shouldn't be going near it five years later.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Supermercado

[Slartibartfast 17,257]

I always love the posts that say we stuffed up the recruiting big time, every club does it, unfortunately we are an easy target, here are a few top 20 picks at other clubs from 2007..

Bulldogs Jarrad Grant , Ayce Cordy, Christian Howard

Sydney Patrick Vezpremi, Lewis Johnston

West Coast Tony Notte, Tom Swift

Geelong Mitch Brown

Carlton Kane Lucas and I would throw in Kreuzer

Fremantle Jayden Pitt

And that's just a quick look, I am sure I could find more, Bulldogs haven't exactly been setting the world on fire

Oh Saty please:

Melbourne: Maric, Morton, Strauss, Blease, Scully, Trengove, Gysberts, Tapscott, Cook, Toumpas, Watts.

All top 20 picks (Maric 21) and not a B+ player amongst them. And 5 of them are top 5.

Spin it any way you like, they are just awful numbers.

Some really good points BB but one thing I disagree with is with respect to Roos' post match press conference.

He didn't say the players were the worst he'd seen. He said the skill execution on the day was the worst he'd seen. There is a big difference.

And in all honesty what else was he supposed to say? No one at Etihad Stadium on Sunday would have walked away thinking anything other than what they had witnessed was absolutely abysmal in terms of basic skill execution. All he did was state the obvious.

Even Lepptisch intimated that the performance of the players was diabolical. He said the following: "At three-quarter time I said 'this is the worst game I think I've ever seen'".

What actually annoyed me more were his comments on AFL360 that 'you can't set high standards while trying to lose at the same time'. For such a polished media performer, one of the best I've seen from a coaching perspective, this was a really poor piece of commentary in my opinion.

Not only is it disrespectful to the club that employs you to allege that they deliberately tried to lose matches (regardless of whether or not this happened), but to offer it up as an excuse for what was one of the worst displays of skill execution by an AFL team just sends the wrong message IMO. All it does is draw attention back on the 'tanking' saga and results in people like Caro exaggerating the effect it had. It gives an 'out' to the players when there shouldn't be an out.

McKenzie didn't miss from 10 metres out because of what happened in 2009. Jack Watts didn't choose not to go hard at the footy because of 2009. Jamar didn't miss from three metres out because of 2009. Dawes didn't miss a two metre handball because of 2009.

As clint said above recruiting is the main reason we are where we are. Culture is critical, no doubt, and the 'tanking' saga may have had an effect on culture, but its effect on the players' skill execution in a match five years later would be negligible.

I am fine with Roos saying post-match that the skills were horrible, because they were. It was an obvious call. But leave it there. I don't really like using 'tanking' as an excuse when it would have had very little bearing on what happened on Sunday.

My point Scoop is he handled it poorly. Just because we know how bad it was doesn't mean Roos has to throw petrol on the fire with his comments.

"We had a shocking day today etc etc etc...... but it was not typical of the year". That's what he should have said. Because that's right. Roos should have been calming the waters not igniting them.

I think it was a terrible performance by him. I also think his continual reference to "from where we've come from" is unnecessary and overused. His "with no disrespect to those that went before me" just continually highlights how poorly those blokes did.

Don't get me wrong, I still fully support him but like the players, he had a shocker on Sunday.

[Tony Tea 2,809]

Roos potting Melbourne on Monday night - seems just like old times.

[Scoop Junior 3,468]

If he wants to do the government thing and blame the previous administration for everything - and he clearly does - he's gone too far back. What a ludicrous comment for the current coach to be making - he shouldn't be going near it five years later.

Disappointing comments from Roos I reckon.

The ironic thing is if you are trying to lose, and the players know that, then losing isn't really going to affect their confidence. You walk off the ground knowing you've lost because you / the club tried to lose, not because you don't think you're good enough.

So I don't at all see how tanking can affect your confidence or your belief to win. I can see how it can affect club culture, but not confidence and belief.

Where you actually lose confidence and belief is when you try your best and you still get beaten. You think your best is not good enough and that the opposition are too good and will always end up winning. This is what happens natrually to a poor team - they try hard, but keep on losing because they are not good enough. When this happens over and over again you forget how to win, you lose the belief that you can win and your confidence drops away.

Blaming it all on tanking is an easy out. It's an out for the players, for coaches, for past recruiters, for player development, etc. And IMO it's plainly wrong.

Abysmal recruiting, poor coaching, poor player development, sacking Bailey after 186 instead of Schwab, hiring Neeld, etc. are the key reasons why we keep on losing. The tanking effect would be insignificant compared to these other factors.

[Whispering_Jack 30,019]

Let’s not kid ourselves. While Schwab, Connolly and Stynes might not have been perfect, our major issues began well before they arrived on the scene at a time when we were broke, had a team of dud players, a recruiting team that didn’t have a clue and hadn’t struck gold since the turn of the century and we haven’t had a coach capable of producing a premiership team in all that time.

That’s all water under the bridge now but the fact is that while I still have faith in Paul Roos we’re not showing anywhere near the progress most of us had hoped for on the field. I attribute it to pathetic recruiting and player development in the decade 2002-2012 more than anything else and all those involved from top to bottom in that time are in their own way responsible for where we’re at right now, and not just a few individuals who are convenient objects of scapegoating.

[chook fowler 19,458]

Roos is calling it as he sees it. He has access to much more background to our current situation than any of us and is a smart operator.

His credibility allows him to tackle stuff head on and he is smart. Often change involves treading a fine line and I trust Roos to do it.

There are obviously still unresolved issues to be dealt with and perhaps a purge is required to move forward.

[Redleg 40,895]

I always love the posts that say we stuffed up the recruiting big time, every club does it, unfortunately we are an easy target, here are a few top 20 picks at other clubs from 2007..

Bulldogs Jarrad Grant , Ayce Cordy, Christian Howard

Sydney Patrick Vezpremi, Lewis Johnston

West Coast Tony Notte, Tom Swift

Geelong Mitch Brown

Carlton Kane Lucas and I would throw in Kreuzer

Fremantle Jayden Pitt

And that's just a quick look, I am sure I could find more, Bulldogs haven't exactly been setting the world on fire

The difference is that you have picked a couple of failures at some clubs, we failed nearly every pick for 8 years.

Give us 6 good players instead of some of our duds and how different would we be?

[Redleg 40,895]

6. The greatest failure of this club was to pick the right players. Put in all the equalization measures you like, the club that has the best recruiting department will beat the others.

Couldn't agree more. It has been proved over and over.

[Trisul 664]

4. Robbo is right. We've kicked a lower score this year on average than we did last year. FM, concentrate on defence by all means but for all the improvements this is a monumental issue.

Is it that monumental? No Mitch, having demonstrated attack worthy of more than a couple per game on average and a similar ability to create more. No Hogan who snagged 39 goals in 15 VFL matches. No Dawes early. Granted his form has fallen, however he plays his role to his ability and in his injury affected time at the MFC he's going above a goal per game.

Instead, under a heavily modified environment, Chip goes forward probably not having trained there for half a decade - and certainly not for the full pre-season. Dunn is withdrawn and offensive options and contested strength are reduced. With Howe back we lost a forward get-out option (28 for 2013), though for the long term better IMO. Pedersen busts a nut for 13 from 18.

Gawn got some hitouts but had little forward impact. Fitzy didn't bother the scorer in three games. The mid-field has done just OK, falling away with the group and having little depth to scoring and score assisting capabilities. First ruck also impacts this. All this on top of the mental and physical fatigue, and the skill ceiling, that is evidenced in the failure to finish off the opportunities that are created in our defensive setup.

Last year we averaged 66 points per game. This year we currently average 60.

[Slartibartfast 17,257]

Let’s not kid ourselves. While Schwab, Connolly and Stynes might not have been perfect, our major issues began well before they arrived on the scene at a time when we were broke, had a team of dud players, a recruiting team that didn’t have a clue and hadn’t struck gold since the turn of the century and we haven’t had a coach capable of producing a premiership team in all that time.

That’s all water under the bridge now but the fact is that while I still have faith in Paul Roos we’re not showing anywhere near the progress most of us had hoped for on the field. I attribute it to pathetic recruiting and player development in the decade 2002-2012 more than anything else and all those involved from top to bottom in that time are in their own way responsible for where we’re at right now, and not just a few individuals who are convenient objects of scapegoating.

You can spin it anyway you like Jack but it wasn't the Gardner Board that allowed Schwab to build his empire with $1.8 million in admin salaries that Jackson has been able to shed - annually. Imagine what even part of that money could have achieved over his period of management. It wasn't the Gardner Board that was so flush with money that they lent Schwab money for his own use from MFC coffers whilst underfunding the footy department. It wasn't on Gardner's Board that we squandered so many draft picks and completely failed to rebuild where so many others had.

The reality is we were in a poor place when Stynes replaced Gardner and with all the opportunity in the world and more money than Gardner ever had we are just a rabble after 7 years. Stynes, Schwab, Connolly and McLardy missed a golden opportunity to build our club and in fact it's a moot point that they achieved anything positive at all. Along with Richmond we are the only club to fail to rebuild given the opportunity we had.

Synes can blame Gardner, Gardner can blame Szondy, Szondy can blame Gutnick and so it goes on. The further back it goes the less relevant it becomes. I think you are one of the very very few that believe any significant part of our current situation sits with an administration which was replaced 7 years ago.