Sassy, don't bother. These morons are completely missing your point. The numbers also point to impact, something WYL and PF and their sycophantic mates will never see. You are wasting your obvious intelligence trying to debate with them. The Toump is being accused of being slow, emotional etc etc! He's a young lad trying to make his way in this Cut Throat industry where not only opposition supporters bag you, but here at the mighty MFC, your own eat you and spit you out. WOW!!!! If I ever stopped supporting this Club, it won't be because of our players and their effort, it will be because of the morons sitting in the outer spewing their invective through their keyboards. I can accept that we have some players maybe lacking in confidence, but who can blame the poor sods if they hear over the fence the vile carp spewed here by faceless cowards hiding behind their anonymity and their Mamas skirt (that would be you PF and WYL). I hope your proud of your carry on and behaviour you faceless, toothless cowards. God help the MFC, the culture is blamed for all our ills. This so called poor culture starts from the Fans sitting on the other side of the (Picket) Fence. The Clubs staff come and go, but by God, the Fans are still there.

Hahah thanks, but i'm not concerned in the slightest, we have different opinions and that's fine, it's what a forum is for, the biggest thing to note is that Toumpas and Wines are very different players and the comparison doesn't work, Wines wins clearances, does the hard stuff and is quite good on the outside too which pre draft was probably the knock that meant we didn't draft him.

I would have taken Wines, but i have seen plenty of Jimmy Toumpas in his junior days and SANFL days, and while it's not the same as the AFL, i see no reason that he can't transfer that form to the AFL, if he does that he will make up ground on Wines really quickly.

I have nothing against Toump and hope he turns in to a good player, but he is not going to win centre clearances for us and Wines would, we get smashed in the middle and are behind the 8 ball from the start.

If you want to be entirely accurate - this year our biggest problem is not getting smashed in the middle and clearances - or even getting our hands on the ball - it is our complete inability to deliver a football with precision.

You would therefore have to draw the assumption that if Roos was drafting right now he would rate receiving the ball and delivering over getting in and under and getting the ball out.

Therefore if you were looking at both Toumpas and Wines without the benefit of one and a bit seasons viewing they would still would pump for Toumpas.

( edit - I know that Salem has the reputation of being hard at it - but he does not have the reputation as a "clearance" machine - as an in and under player - what does that tell you about Roo's and Vineys thinking ?)

Besides Toumpas having limited preseason last year the biggest point being missed is any player is going to perform better when they are placed in a team that is well drilled and well structured. We expected a Toumpas, a first year player, to thrive last year in team that had no direction, no gameplan, no structure, no heart and no desire.

The best analogy I can draw for the likes of WYL and PF is taking Vettel and putting him behind the wheel of a leyland P76 and comparing him to Hamilton behind the wheel of Ferrari and bemoaning what a much better driver Hamilton is.

I have watched Ricky Petterd for the Tigers and although he still kicks helicopters he is playing much more consistent football for the Tigers than he played for us. There is a reason for that. He is in a better TEAM, he is given a task/role and he has a fair understanding of not only what he needs to do but what he teammates around him will do.

If you want to be entirely accurate - this year our biggest problem is not getting smashed in the middle and clearances - or even getting our hands on the ball - it is our complete inability to deliver a football with precision.

You would therefore have to draw the assumption that if Roos was drafting right now he would rate receiving the ball and delivering over getting in and under and getting the ball out.

Therefore if you were looking at both Toumpas and Wines without the benefit of one and a bit seasons viewing they would still would pump for Toumpas.

( edit - I know that Salem has the reputation of being hard at it - but he is does not have the reputation as a "clearance" machine - as an in and under player - what does that tell you about Roo's and Vineys thinking ?)

Besides Toumpas having limited preseason last year the biggest point being missed is any player is going to perform better when they are placed in a team that is well drilled and well structured. We expected a Toumpas, a first year player, to thrive last year in team that had no direction, no gameplan, no structure, no heart and no desire.

The best analogy I can draw for the likes of WYL and PF is taking Vettel and putting him behind the wheel of a leyland P76 and comparing him to Hamilton behind the wheel of Ferrari and bemoaning what a much better driver Hamilton is.

I have watched Ricky Petterd for the Tigers and although he still kicks helicopters he is playing much more consistent football for the Tigers than he played for us. There is a reason for that. He is in a better TEAM, he is given a task/role and he has a fair understanding of not only what he needs to do but what he teammates around him will do.

I reckon Jimmy has been told his role is to play the flank, run hard and deliver the ball well to our smaller forward line, which i reckon he's doing quite well, the role suits him, as he develops he will move more into the midfield but he needs to adress his weird running style and put on some size, then develop his inside game to become a more complete player.

Let's give Toumpas some credit.

He's kicked 15% of our goals this year...

think we have done this thread to death

up to jimmy now

From what I gathered from this thread it was up to us...

I believe we picked the wrong player.

It aint Jimmy's fault. But he better be good because Wines is going to rack up BOG performances.

One of the most moronic comments i have seen on DL. Which is no mean feat.I mean the Toump has to, for the rest of his career, be judged by the performance of Wines. Why stop there? Why not judge him by the performance by every other player in his draft taken after him? So, so stupid.

We picked the Toump. He is a dees man. Wines plays for an opposition club. Unless history can be changed that is the end of the story. And even if it can there would be a lot of other things i'd change first.

It is utterly comical whining (pardon the pun) about something that cannot be changed. Ridiculous.

One of the most moronic comments i have seen on DL. Which is no mean feat.I mean the Toump has to, for the rest of his career, be judged by the performance of Wines. Why stop there? Why not judge him by the performance by every other player in his draft taken after him? So, so stupid.

We picked the Toump. He is a dees man. Wines plays for an opposition club. Unless history can be changed that is the end of the story. And even if it can there would be a lot of other things i'd change first.

It is utterly comical whining (pardon the pun) about something that cannot be changed. Ridiculous.

Yes it's the way this club has operated for years.

Very sad really.

... he needs to adress his weird running style ...

yup. i read through this whole lame thread to see if someone had mentioned this.

sunday was my first ever live AFL game. i have watched every Melbourne game for the past 4 years on tv. that is, i've seen all of Toumpas's games on tv; and i had never noticed just how strange his running style is until i saw him live. perhaps this is a result of the surgery he had (or the problem which lead to the surgery)? but until he corrects his running style he is doomed to slowness. correction _will_ make him faster.

Yes it's the way this club has operated for years.

Very sad really.

More comedy gold.

I have only a handful of posters blocked and for all but one the blocking is about the craziness and offensiveness of their posts. The exception just wore me down with banality, repetitive arguments, refusal to let things go, childish [censored] for tats with other posters and just plain painfully illogical posts. Now i have two such posters.

Bye Bye.

More comedy gold.

I have only a handful of posters blocked and for all but one the blocking is about the craziness and offensiveness of their posts. The exception just wore me down with banality, repetitive arguments, refusal to let things go, childish [censored] for tats with other posters and just plain painfully illogical posts. Now i have two such posters.

Bye Bye.

See ya....

yup. i read through this whole lame thread to see if someone had mentioned this.

sunday was my first ever live AFL game. i have watched every Melbourne game for the past 4 years on tv. that is, i've seen all of Toumpas's games on tv; and i had never noticed just how strange his running style is until i saw him live. perhaps this is a result of the surgery he had (or the problem which lead to the surgery)? but until he corrects his running style he is doomed to slowness. correction _will_ make him faster.

I reckon that's what it is, he runs as though he is in pain, i reckon he needs time and a running coach and it will slowly come back, his pace was very good before he was drafted.

Definitely, if Adelaide wanted toumpas and our first pick for Dangerfield. But you can't trade toumpas on his current value, as you wouldn't get a feel for his worth. Clearly no team is going to offer pick 4 for him this year.

I know a club that offered pick 2 for a bloke called Tyson and pick 9 etc?

Strange things can happen.

Let's give Toumpas some credit.

He's kicked 15% of our goals this year...

Not to mention he's second on the Goalkicking List

Sassy, don't bother. These morons are completely missing your point. The numbers also point to impact, something WYL and PF and their sycophantic mates will never see. You are wasting your obvious intelligence trying to debate with them. The Toump is being accused of being slow, emotional etc etc! He's a young lad trying to make his way in this Cut Throat industry where not only opposition supporters bag you, but here at the mighty MFC, your own eat you and spit you out. WOW!!!! If I ever stopped supporting this Club, it won't be because of our players and their effort, it will be because of the morons sitting in the outer spewing their invective through their keyboards. I can accept that we have some players maybe lacking in confidence, but who can blame the poor sods if they hear over the fence the vile carp spewed here by faceless cowards hiding behind their anonymity and their Mamas skirt (that would be you PF and WYL). I hope your proud of your carry on and behaviour you faceless, toothless cowards. God help the MFC, the culture is blamed for all our ills. This so called poor culture starts from the Fans sitting on the other side of the (Picket) Fence. The Clubs staff come and go, but by God, the Fans are still there.

Righto time to clear the air on this. I have nothing against Jimmy Toumpas whatsoever. Not once have I "Spewed Vile Carp" I have purely pointed out his deficiencies as I see them which are

1 He is slow

2 He does not win enough contested Ball ( 95% or so uncontested)

3 He doesn't hurt you with his possessions, not talking about efficiency rate, a lot of player can chip the ball back and forwards over 25 metres. Talking about creating forward entries and crucial set up plays ( Gary Ablett is the one I'm thinking of) and no, don't expect him to accumulate Ablett like stats but would like to see some "Killer" Line breaking possesions.

4 He isn't a multiple goal scorer.

I can see why we and other clubs drafted him, but in merely pointing out his deficiencies I have the right of opinion. This is my opinion. Jimmy Toumpas may or may not be the player which we hope can improve our footy club.

However, the main point of my argument has always been that we drafted the wrong type of player for our needs then and now. This is nothing personal against Jimmy Toumpas, He got drafted by us Fact!!

Fact Ollie Wines in hindsight still would have been a better pickup given our needs.

Now, one other thing about culture my friend, I attended the 64 Grand Final with my old man as a knee high tacker, and don't remember much about the day.

In the ensuing years I have been a passionate paid up member more often than not.

My point is this Culture is not up to me to fester, that's the footy clubs job. I can agree with decisions made or disagree as all supporters of every club do in passing judgement about their footy club and its workings its called "Free thought and equally Free Speech"

I believe our recruiting for so long has been the worst of any club in AFL/VFL History.

Fact we have been paying for a bloody long time for our player choices and some Coaching/ Administration choices.

Fact we haven't won a flag for 50 that's right 50 long years.

The club has a responsibility to us all to start producing the goods so don't talk to me about "Culture" I know all about winning cultures. I have been involved in successful dynasties in Football and Cricket clubs for a loooong time.

I reckon I know one or two things about sport and developing a strong Cultural Base

I reckon Paul Roos and the club is in the best position to rectify previous problems. I like what the club is doing.

Again I iterate

I reckon we drafted the wrong type of player for our needs. This was previous administration decision which sounds very much like a Neeld override if the rumours are true. I wish Jimmy Toumpas all the best and by crikey he had want to develop into a champion. For all our sakes.

5O YEARS I think I have earn't the right to have to insightful commentary about our footy club.

PF

The picket fence speaks a lot of sense.

?

His post is bordering on unreadable.

Righto time to clear the air on this. I have nothing against Jimmy Toumpas whatsoever. Not once have I "Spewed Vile Carp" I have purely pointed out his deficiencies as I see them which are

1 He is slow

2 He does not win enough contested Ball ( 95% or so uncontested)

3 He doesn't hurt you with his possessions, not talking about efficiency rate, a lot of player can chip the ball back and forwards over 25 metres. Talking about creating forward entries and crucial set up plays ( Gary Ablett is the one I'm thinking of) and no, don't expect him to accumulate Ablett like stats but would like to see some "Killer" Line breaking possesions.

4 He isn't a multiple goal scorer.

I can see why we and other clubs drafted him, but in merely pointing out his deficiencies I have the right of opinion. This is my opinion. Jimmy Toumpas may or may not be the player which we hope can improve our footy club.

However, the main point of my argument has always been that we drafted the wrong type of player for our needs then and now. This is nothing personal against Jimmy Toumpas, He got drafted by us Fact!!

Fact Ollie Wines in hindsight still would have been a better pickup given our needs.

Now, one other thing about culture my friend, I attended the 64 Grand Final with my old man as a knee high tacker, and don't remember much about the day.

In the ensuing years I have been a passionate paid up member more often than not.

My point is this Culture is not up to me to fester, that's the footy clubs job. I can agree with decisions made or disagree as all supporters of every club do in passing judgement about their footy club and its workings its called "Free thought and equally Free Speech"

I believe our recruiting for so long has been the worst of any club in AFL/VFL History.

Fact we have been paying for a bloody long time for our player choices and some Coaching/ Administration choices.

Fact we haven't won a flag for 50 that's right 50 long years.

The club has a responsibility to us all to start producing the goods so don't talk to me about "Culture" I know all about winning cultures. I have been involved in successful dynasties in Football and Cricket clubs for a loooong time.

I reckon I know one or two things about sport and developing a strong Cultural Base

I reckon Paul Roos and the club is in the best position to rectify previous problems. I like what the club is doing.

Again I iterate

I reckon we drafted the wrong type of player for our needs. This was previous administration decision which sounds very much like a Neeld override if the rumours are true. I wish Jimmy Toumpas all the best and by crikey he had want to develop into a champion. For all our sakes.

5O YEARS I think I have earn't the right to have to insightful commentary about our footy club.

PF

1. i agree

2. his worst game last year was 90% uncontested his best was 40% uncontested and his average was around the 30-40% mark

3.the only times he is threatening is around the 50 so partially agree, he hit up some good leads from Howe and Bail with not much room for error in the NAB cup, so while he has no real current damaging weapons i can see where they will develop from.

4.he has kicked a goal every game so far this year, and 20% of our goals, not saying much when the team has scored 10 goals in two games.

in summary you are correct, Wines suited our needs better, we would be a better side with Wines, Toumpas i think will develop into a gun and should be left alone, but he needs to improve out of sight to be talked about in the same breath as Wines at the minute which is dissapointing.

i know i have defended Toumpas and i stand by that, but the thing that still gets to me is this

Wines is a ready made player, he'd be in our top 5 players easily right now and making a serious impact

Toumpas is improving but isn't any more than a handy role player at the moment

but it's the mentality, Toumpas tries hard and wants to be good, Wines refuses to fail.

wanting to win and flat our refusing to accept anything but a win are totally different things unfortunately and we need alot more of the latter in our side if we're going to get out of our current hole

My point is this Culture is not up to me to fester

It's festering just fine without you, so you're OK on that score.

Can't recall saying that.

My point is we are vey light on for clearance players and even with Jones and Tyson there we still lost the first 6 centre clearances; Wines is a big body and we desperately need that at the moment. You obviously disagree.

Mate...some just wont come at the idea that these are footy players first...they all seem to given infinite largess beccause someones supposed to be this type or that... This is where the whole thing becomes bullshlt. The first job is get ball, second jop to dispose of ball effectively to team mate ...or score.

its as f***king simple as that . But NO, this guy is outside or this guy is a back or a fwd , they are supposed to do this or that because THATS not what they were drafted for !!! Has there eve been such a load of codswallop ??

Yes players have roles but first and foremost is the basic idea of footy. It requires BOTH offensive and defensive sides..ALL players ought to be able to effect these.

What.....players wait...because its someone elses job ?

At Melbourne they do

Righto time to clear the air on this. I have nothing against Jimmy Toumpas whatsoever. Not once have I "Spewed Vile Carp" I have purely pointed out his deficiencies as I see them which are

1 He is slow

2 He does not win enough contested Ball ( 95% or so uncontested)

3 He doesn't hurt you with his possessions, not talking about efficiency rate, a lot of player can chip the ball back and forwards over 25 metres. Talking about creating forward entries and crucial set up plays ( Gary Ablett is the one I'm thinking of) and no, don't expect him to accumulate Ablett like stats but would like to see some "Killer" Line breaking possesions.

4 He isn't a multiple goal scorer.

I can see why we and other clubs drafted him, but in merely pointing out his deficiencies I have the right of opinion. This is my opinion. Jimmy Toumpas may or may not be the player which we hope can improve our footy club.

However, the main point of my argument has always been that we drafted the wrong type of player for our needs then and now. This is nothing personal against Jimmy Toumpas, He got drafted by us Fact!!

Fact Ollie Wines in hindsight still would have been a better pickup given our needs.

Now, one other thing about culture my friend, I attended the 64 Grand Final with my old man as a knee high tacker, and don't remember much about the day.

In the ensuing years I have been a passionate paid up member more often than not.

My point is this Culture is not up to me to fester, that's the footy clubs job. I can agree with decisions made or disagree as all supporters of every club do in passing judgement about their footy club and its workings its called "Free thought and equally Free Speech"

I believe our recruiting for so long has been the worst of any club in AFL/VFL History.

Fact we have been paying for a bloody long time for our player choices and some Coaching/ Administration choices.

Fact we haven't won a flag for 50 that's right 50 long years.

The club has a responsibility to us all to start producing the goods so don't talk to me about "Culture" I know all about winning cultures. I have been involved in successful dynasties in Football and Cricket clubs for a loooong time.

I reckon I know one or two things about sport and developing a strong Cultural Base

I reckon Paul Roos and the club is in the best position to rectify previous problems. I like what the club is doing.

Again I iterate

I reckon we drafted the wrong type of player for our needs. This was previous administration decision which sounds very much like a Neeld override if the rumours are true. I wish Jimmy Toumpas all the best and by crikey he had want to develop into a champion. For all our sakes.

5O YEARS I think I have earn't the right to have to insightful commentary about our footy club.

PF

I know you posted this a few hours ago. Only just stopped laughing my guts out.

Let's give Toumpas some credit.

He's kicked 15% of our goals this year...

20%, actually.

One of the most moronic comments i have seen on DL. Which is no mean feat.I mean the Toump has to, for the rest of his career, be judged by the performance of Wines. Why stop there? Why not judge him by the performance by every other player in his draft taken after him? So, so stupid.

We picked the Toump. He is a dees man. Wines plays for an opposition club. Unless history can be changed that is the end of the story. And even if it can there would be a lot of other things i'd change first.

It is utterly comical whining (pardon the pun) about something that cannot be changed. Ridiculous.

good stuff, people must start to realise this logic, to bleat on about Wines for years is just frickin' ridiculous

Wines is a ready made player, he'd be in our top 5 players easily right now and making a serious impact

Not sure you how you can make this statement ?

Last year - Wines was a ready made player and would have been fantastic at Hawthorn or Geelong and was fantastic at the big improvers Port Adelaide.

So last year -a first year player coming to a club like ours that stunk it up big time that had no discernable plan or system, had most players well down on form for the whole year and played with little spirit ? How do you think he would have gone. ( rhetorical question as again it is speculating)

Not sure you how you can make this statement ?

Last year - Wines was a ready made player and would have been fantastic at Hawthorn or Geelong and was fantastic at the big improvers Port Adelaide.

So last year -a first year player coming to a club like ours that stunk it up big time that had no discernable plan or system, had most players well down on form for the whole year and played with little spirit ? How do you think he would have gone. ( rhetorical question as again it is speculating)

Look i certainly don't think he'd go as well as he did at Port, and i reckon if Jimmy was at Port he'd look alot better, so it's really hard to say.

I just loved the Wines and Viney story, but i am a huge fan of Jimmy and reckon he will be a really good player, really he probably is too different from Wines to compare

looking forward to seeing who of Jack Viney and Ollie Wines is better by the end of this year, obviously keeping in mind the different sides they play in makes it tougher on Jack