Matt Jones and Dean Terlich

[Machsy 2,858]

Define "hurt".

2-3 goals a game is an irrelevance when you are this poor, but cutting out culture cancers makes a big difference.

I'd much prefer having kids on the list like Viney, Toumpas & Kent.

I think Rodan, Byrnes and Dawes with their leadership have been much better influences on the kids.

Keeping Moloney, Petterd and Rivers might have meant we didn't get Matt Jones or Terlich, due to spots and list balance.

I'm damn sure I'm glad those 3 are gone.

[rpfc 28,769]

Now you're arguing something slightly different. No-one mentioned medium and long term. The question is did the absence of Moloney and Rivers hurt this year. Yes, it did. They would also have been handy next season.

You can't state we would've lost by 2 goals less as fact. Look at the impact Moloney had at Brisbane this year when he was allowed to play his natural game out of the middle. He likely would've been given the same freedom under Craig. Certainly, Nate Jones wouldn't have been our only clearance player. It's craziness to stick to this idea that losing two senior, quality players in a list that was already scraping the barrel in that regard hasn't had ramifications.

Incidentally, saying that their inclusion equates to the 2012 side doesn't take into account the improvement of other players since then - Garland, Jones etc. Even when factoring that in, the side as a whole went backwards at a great rate of knots. 2012 was no picnic, but 2013, certainly the first half under Neeld, was an unmitigated disaster.

You also have to factor in the message that their leaving sent to the playing group. The spirit was sucked out of this lot. It would be naive to think that wasn't a contributing factor.

Arguing something different?

I started the argument...

We are a terrible team and have been for a few years now.

Losing players that hurt would have to be losing those of great value for nothing or those of value when we are good in a few years (exceptions made for excellent leaders like McDonald).

They just will not be missed in 2 years time when I hope we are looking at a winning season.

Losing Moloney and Rivers for 2013 made us worse, but they don't hurt.

They didn't then and they don't now.

[Red and Bluebeard 2,090]

Don't get me started on Prendergast again, I am ready to explode.

I would compare him to a garbage man who drops all the rubbish in the street,

a jockey who keeps falling off every horse he mounts,

a clown who makes people cry,

a soccer player who is allergic to grass,

a mechanic who doesn't know what an engine is,

a dieter who lives on junk food,

a high jumper who is scared of heights,

a swimmer who can't float,

a cafe without coffee,

a liferaft with holes in it,

a pair of shoes with both lefties,

a box of popcorn with only the kernels,

a bbq without heat,

a cricket bat without a handle,

a guitar without strings,

a bucket with no bottom,

etc, etc.

PS. Feel free to add more.

And without banana cake ...

[pm24 451]

Neeld is also the reason we lost/got rid of Moloney, Rivers and Petterd who have all been good at their new clubs this year.

Rivers has only played games this year due to injury, and I think if he was still lining up for us, people would be suggesting we possibly made a mistake keeping him as he is becoming injury prone later in his career. Petterd has also been injured this season, and is being used off the half back line. I'm not sure whether, if he played off half back for us, he would be getting a game ahead of terlich or clisby either. He's got talent, but I just don't think he fitted on our list any longer.

As for Moloney, if what came out about his attitude is true, then I don't care how well he has been playing up north, it sounds like he was part of the problem with the culture, and I'm glad to see the back of him if that is true.

On balance though, I think the additions/subtractions that took place over the last 12 months have finished off with us in a better position for the future. The recruiting staff deserve a pat on the back, even for the additions of Rodan and Byrnes, as both have apparently been great role models and mentors for our younger players. Considering neither cost us anything to really get, they have made positive contributions to the club, and in my view have been good additions.

[Little Goffy 14,639]

On the Terlich-Roos topic, I think there's a big percption difference between being a 'rookie who plays loose and gets away with it in the 2s' and a 'young player who has shown a bit but needs to be more focused defensively'.

One you let go, the other you put extra work into. Terlich's 2013 was clearly break-out, we'll see where he goes from here, whoever the coach may be.

[P-man 13,366]

Arguing something different?

I started the argument...

We are a terrible team and have been for a few years now.

Losing players that hurt would have to be losing those of great value for nothing or those of value when we are good in a few years (exceptions made for excellent leaders like McDonald).

They just will not be missed in 2 years time when I hope we are looking at a winning season.

Losing Moloney and Rivers for 2013 made us worse, but they don't hurt.

They didn't then and they don't now.

Okay. It seems this is somewhat splitting hairs, focused around what can be defined as "hurt". Were we a worse team with them gone? Yes. Will we be a worse off team next season with them gone? More than likely. That's two seasons where we unnecessarily lost two players who remember what it was like to play in a good Melbourne side and still had good footy ahead of them. After that they'd each be in their 30s and moving towards the finish line anyhow.

Beamer has his critics, understandably. I've been one of them. But Nathan Jones pretty much credits him for where his game is at now, so he cant have been all bad. As for Rivers being a "culture cancer", I've only heard reports of how liked and respected he was at the club.

After this season, the process of picking apart how it all went so horribly wrong surely must account for Moloney and Rivers moving on, in some way. I think it had a meaningful and immediate impact. Hopefully not one that resonates for too long.

Edited September 3, 2013 by P_Man

[rpfc 28,769]

Okay. It seems this is somewhat splitting hairs, focused around what can be defined as "hurt". Were we a worse team with them gone? Yes. Will we be a worse off team next season with them gone? More than likely. That's two seasons where we unnecessarily lost two players who remember what it was like to play in a good Melbourne side and still had good footy ahead of them. After that they'd each be in their 30s and moving towards the finish line anyhow.

Beamer has his critics, understandably. I've been one of them. But Nathan Jones pretty much credits him for where his game is at now, so he cant have been all bad. As for Rivers being a "culture cancer", I've only heard reports of how liked and respected he was at the club.

After this season, the process of picking apart how it all went so horribly wrong surely must account for Moloney and Rivers moving on, in some way. I think it had a meaningful and immediate impact. Hopefully not one that resonates for too long.

Ok, I will make it easier:

Frawley asks to leave.

Hogan requests a trade to WA.

That visceral pain in your gut you just felt?

That's the difference I am talking about, that's what would have been on the cards if we had made another terrible decision with an untried coach.

[P-man 13,366]

Granted, those would hurt MORE.

[rpfc 28,769]

Granted, those would hurt MORE.

Because they are important players for our flag tilt?

And now it clicks...

[P-man 13,366]

Because they are important players for our flag tilt?

And now it clicks...

I don't suppose it's at all possible for you to refrain from being a condescending [censored], is it? I know you seem to struggle with that, but give it a bash. I guess if that fails you can always fall back on your self-proclaimed brilliant comedic timing.

Hogan and Frawley will ideally be playing when the side is challenging, hence why their loss as key players in the side would hurt more. That doesn't prove your original claim that the loss of Moloney and Rivers hasn't hurt, period. This season it most certainly did. For God's sake, look where the club is at right now. You don't get to this point without a whole series of poor decisions that dig you deeper and deeper.

All clubs eventually move on, and we will be no different.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

I don't suppose it's at all possible for you to refrain from being a condescending [censored], is it? I know you seem to struggle with that, but give it a bash. I guess if that fails you can always fall back on your self-proclaimed brilliant comedic timing.

Hogan and Frawley will ideally be playing when the side is challenging, hence why their loss as key players in the side would hurt more. That doesn't prove your original claim that the loss of Moloney and Rivers hasn't hurt, period. This season it most certainly did. For God's sake, look where the club is at right now. You don't get to this point without a whole series of poor decisions that dig you deeper and deeper.

All clubs eventually move on, and we will be no different.

What point point are you trying to make here P_Man? It's so damn irrelevant this 'hurt' you are talking about in losing Moloney and Rivers.

One was considered a cancerous and selfish player who seemed to be having more of a negative effect on the young list and club than positive.

The other was keen to play somewhere else after enduring many terrible seasons at the club.

As RPFC has stated they may have made a couple of goals difference to our side this year. Is this the point you're trying to make? That's the hurt?

Profound stuff.

Edited September 3, 2013 by stevethemanjordan

[Machsy 2,858]

If you're halfway through eating a pie and drop it on the ground, I guess you could also say that "hurts."

Most people would shrug it off and move on.

It's all relative.

[McQueen 17,867]

If we didn't screw up the last coaching appointment we wouldn't be debating this. Moloney didn't want to play to Neelds dickbrained game plan and I don't blame him. It was a shame he didn't understand the concept of true leadership but his ability to extract the ball was missed this year.

Rivers thought Neeld was a whackjob and could not see a future in finals anytime soon under him. He came to that realisation way before all of us Football Yoda's. To make the assertion that to lose a player who is able to walk into arguably the most dominant team in the competitions best 22 as no great loss is incomprehensible.

Think about it.

[The Chazz 4,077]

What point point are you trying to make here P_Man? It's so damn irrelevant this 'hurt' you are talking about in losing Moloney and Rivers.

One was considered a cancerous and selfish player who seemed to be having more of a negative effect on the young list and club than positive.

The other was keen to play somewhere else after enduring many terrible seasons at the club.

As RPFC has stated they may have made a couple of goals difference to our side this year. Is this the point you're trying to make? That's the hurt?

Profound stuff.

STMJ, for my benefit, can you please tell me which player relates to both those comments. If your answer is Moloney is "A" and Rivers is "B", then I could quite easily argue that it could be the other way around!

In all seriousness though, Moloney would've helped this year, but his loss hasn't hurt. However, I'm amazed that one/some think the loss of Rivers has hurt.

Then a number of levels under those two is when we start talking about Petterd.

[McQueen 17,867]

You're right, billy. Pedersen was a great pick up and filled the void after Rivers left.

Ed: sorry, I meant Gillies. He was a beaut.

Edited September 3, 2013 by McQueen

[daisycutter 29,737]

If you're halfway through eating a pie and drop it on the ground, I guess you could also say that "hurts."

Most people would shrug it off and move on.

It's all relative.

you'd understand if it was a mars bar but

[P-man 13,366]

What point point are you trying to make here P_Man? It's so damn irrelevant this 'hurt' you are talking about in losing Moloney and Rivers.

One was considered a cancerous and selfish player who seemed to be having more of a negative effect on the young list and club than positive.

The other was keen to play somewhere else after enduring many terrible seasons at the club.

As RPFC has stated they may have made a couple of goals difference to our side this year. Is this the point you're trying to make? That's the hurt?

Profound stuff.

Firstly, RPFC brought up the concept of "hurt", not me. His original statement was they haven't hurt. It's taken until now to define what he meant by "hurt", and I initially disagreed that it didn't cause immediate hurt in terms of results this year. As for flow-on effects from losing two senior and decent players, in any club, he nor you seem to give that any weight. I do.

It goes without saying that the loss of two pivotal players like Frawley and Hogan would hurt more, so to present that as some sort of trump card is basically placing a different emphasis around what "hurts" a club. After the appalling treatment of Junior, I think the Moloney/Rivers decision cemented the reputation of Melbourne's ill-treatment of its senior players who have given the club good service.

I also have already stated that I'm not Moloney's biggest advocate, but I think the "cancerous" label is overblown by fans on a footy forum that frankly don't know the full extent of the influence he had at the club, especially on the younger players. Jones' progression as a player, and his being quite open in attributing that to Moloney, says that it is overblown to some degree.

No-one knows the full extent to which their leaving has hurt the culture and feeling around the club. Not you. Not RPFC. The early evidence, on field and off, suggests it wasn't good. The club has gone from crap to Fitzroy level, and now we are rebuilding. Again. There are many contributing factors to where we are. This, I believe, was one of them.

I don't want to to see a repeat of the treatment of our senior players like this ever again. The results have spoken for themselves, and the impacts last longer than one single season.

Edited September 3, 2013 by P_Man

[Moonshadow 17,677]

Hmmmmm... keep Maloney and Petterd into 2013 and pass on the last two live picks we had in the 2012 National Draft (ie, not rookie upgrades). Matt Jones was pick 52 and Terlich pick 68. I know which two I'd rather have.

Sure, some might say we could have had both. Who knows if Jones and Terlich would have been around for our rookie upgrade picks. But I don't miss Beamer or Ricky nor do I think they would have made a positive impact on MFC in 2013. IMO they will struggle to hold a place in their respective best 22 in 2014.

[Dockett 32 1,239]

Hmmmmm... keep Maloney and Petterd into 2013 and pass on the last two live picks we had in the 2012 National Draft (ie, not rookie upgrades). Matt Jones was pick 52 and Terlich pick 68. I know which two I'd rather have.

Sure, some might say we could have had both. Who knows if Jones and Terlich would have been around for our rookie upgrade picks. But I don't miss Beamer or Ricky nor do I think they would have made a positive impact on MFC in 2013. IMO they will struggle to hold a place in their respective best 22 in 2014.

Christ Moonshadow first humour followed up by sense. You are clearly lost.

[rpfc 28,769]

I love it when we delve into a semantic argument...

My term, I have defined after a roundabout request for context and I stand by it.

Objections noted and logged.

Move on.

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,654]

Redleg, Prendergast is a genius. I know because Dr Who told me and we all know how much he knows about football

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,654]

Terlich and Jones, kudos to the pair of them, fantastic first years in the AFL.

That said, for Terlich to remain an integral part of our defence he needs to be more accountable to his man.

Jones, to become important to our midfield has to improve his foot skills.

[spirit of norm smith 16,588]

Mitch Clisby should be elevated IMO

[titan_uranus 25,043]

Terlich and Jones, kudos to the pair of them, fantastic first years in the AFL.

That said, for Terlich to remain an integral part of our defence he needs to be more accountable to his man.

Jones, to become important to our midfield has to improve his foot skills.

Agree with this.

Terlich's got the attacking flair we need from a HBF, but he has to learn to defend. He also needs to work on his decision-making, which extends to knowing when to take a tackle on and knowing when to pass.

[LegsLeoncelli 162]

Mitch Clisby should be elevated IMO

One would certainly hope that's a given.