Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[low flying Robbo 979]

The point I'm making is an entirely different one. There is an art to interrogation which often draws out responses from a witness that are useful in establishing what did or did not occur even in the case of poor or untruthful witnesses. I'm of the view that there must be a case for the issue of infraction notices if they're not making use of the opportunity to interview Dank.

On the other hand, if they don't have enough evidence and they don't avail themselves of the opportunity to interview him then it's a whitewash and I don't believe the judge would allow his reputation to be tarnished in that way.

I wonder if there will be any desk smacking when Dank is being interviewed...

[sue 9,151]

Seems to me 2 possibilities:

If ASADA finalises without interviewing Dank then I'd assume they have sufficiently strong cases without his input. But you'd still like an explanation of why it was felt he could not add anything, or what legislative restriction prevented him being interviewed.

If their final position is 'nothing to see here' or 'not sufficient evidence', then they'd better have a bloody good story as to why they didn't/couldn't interview him. If they claim lack of resources/legislation to do the job, then you'd expect WADA to have some stern things to say to the Oz govt.

[M_9 2,106]

On the Mark Allen - David Schwarz SEN show this arvo they said words to the effect that ASADA did not bother to interview Dank as they were not able to make the $5500 per day 'no comment' legislation retrospective.

You think that ASADA reckoned that Dank would not say anything and risk implicating himself unless he was compelled to.

[Cards13 9,117]

On the Mark Allen - David Schwarz SEN show this arvo they said words to the effect that ASADA did not bother to interview Dank as they were not able to make the $5500 per day 'no comment' legislation retrospective.

You think that ASADA reckoned that Dank would not say anything and risk implicating himself unless he was compelled to.

That makes no sense if the legislation is there to be used.

[M_9 2,106]

That makes no sense if the legislation is there to be used.

It makes sense. The legislation (re compelling persons to appear before ASADA with a $5500 per day penalty for failure to do so) was not in place in 2012.

The government, or whoever, put the legislation in place was not able to make it retrospective. At least that's the gist of what was said on SEN at approx 5:10pm this arvo.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

Danks hasn't even been summoned!!

This is all very strange. I still think he should have been the first spoken to....

WYL you're making no sense at all. Would you bother interviewing the key suspect in a murder if you were the detectives in charge of the case? Of course not!

2014 Season (with Bombers in full flight under new Hird short term/interim substitute coach) roll on. Nothing to see here folks, business as usual....move along!

[rjay 25,197]

It makes sense. The legislation (re compelling persons to appear before ASADA with a $5500 per day penalty for failure to do so) was not in place in 2012.

The government, or whoever, put the legislation in place was not able to make it retrospective. At least that's the gist of what was said on SEN at approx 5:10pm this arvo.

That makes no sense at all. If they want to him speak it would be now and the legislation is in place now.

Edited February 27, 2014 by rjay

[Sir Why You Little 37,239]

That makes no sense at all. If they want to him speak it would be now and the legislation is in place now.

not if he doesn't want to....

[Whispering_Jack 30,926]

ASADA wants to sidestep legal action, judging by chief's senate admission

ASADA's failed attempts to seduce Dank into informal meetings, without threat of penalty, and Andruska's admission before a Senate hearing on Wednesday that briefs are being prepared for the ADRVP is a clear indication the anti-doping authority does not want Australia's most serious drugs case heard in open court.

After all, Dank is the central figure in the saga.

His evidence before a Federal Court could potentially expose a web of officials at either or both Essendon and Cronulla who had intimate knowledge of his supplements program.

This could reveal, as a myth, the notion that Dank was a rogue scientist acting alone.

... and ...

When I asked why Dank had not been summoned the answer was: "They probably have enough without him."

Andruska's evidence before the Senate hints at both codes possibly being issued with show-cause letters.

She said: "We have briefs that we are preparing right now . . . and [will] issue show-cause letters and take matters through the ADRVP and other tribunals as the process proceeds."

Her mention of the plural with "tribunals" suggests both the AFL and NRL could be asked to convene hearings, provided the ADRVP agrees there is enough evidence.

Masters is usually right on the ball and we could hear more from him if he appears on this week's edition of Offsiders on ABC1 (and Robbo and Whateley are certain to be entertaining with their spin on AFL360).

Both codes are facing difficult years in 2014 which could be a disaster for Essendon (I think Cronulla are stuffed no matter what) and almost certainly will be Demetriou's final one at the helm of the AFL.

As an aside, the Weapon's case against the Bombers is proceeding and I believe we will hear a lot more from the Fairfax investigative reporters Baker and McKenzie before this plays out. We also have Mark Thompson coaching at Essendon, Doc Reid back as the club doctor and James Hird coach-in-waiting ready to take back his old job in August.

Dramatic and sad times ahead for the sport.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

The point I'm making is an entirely different one. There is an art to interrogation which often draws out responses from a witness that are useful in establishing what did or did not occur even in the case of poor or untruthful witnesses. I'm of the view that there must be a case for the issue of infraction notices if they're not making use of the opportunity to interview Dank.

On the other hand, if they don't have enough evidence and they don't avail themselves of the opportunity to interview him then it's a whitewash and I don't believe the judge would allow his reputation to be tarnished in that way.

Oh it's an art is it. If Danks answers the questions with I don't know, I don't recall and I refutes allegations, we can it abstract art.

It is plausible that they may have enough evidence to issue infraction notices.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Seems to me 2 possibilities:

If ASADA finalises without interviewing Dank then I'd assume they have sufficiently strong cases without his input. But you'd still like an explanation of why it was felt he could not add anything, or what legislative restriction prevented him being interviewed.

If their final position is 'nothing to see here' or 'not sufficient evidence', then they'd better have a bloody good story as to why they didn't/couldn't interview him. If they claim lack of resources/legislation to do the job, then you'd expect WADA to have some stern things to say to the Oz govt.

I think M9 and Jacks article from the SMH provide some insight into why he has not been interviewed.

Regardless of the outcome, the issue of resources/ funding is definite issue. In Feb last year, the Govt threw ASADA a hospital hand pass to concurrently investigate Essendon and Cronulla.

[Cards13 9,117]

It makes sense. The legislation (re compelling persons to appear before ASADA with a $5500 per day penalty for failure to do so) was not in place in 2012.

The government, or whoever, put the legislation in place was not able to make it retrospective. At least that's the gist of what was said on SEN at approx 5:10pm this arvo.

I understand that but they announced the darkest day in sports over 12 months ago and have had ample time to start the please come for a chat if not we will fine you process.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I understand that but they announced the darkest day in sports over 12 months ago and have had ample time to start the please come for a chat if not we will fine you process.

I think if you read the article that Jack quoted from the SMH it should go a long way to answering the question.

And the relevant legislation was only passed in July/August.

And after the Govt. announced the darkest day in Australian sport they threw a timebomb on a woefully under funded statutory authority to investigate the fallout.

[Whispering_Jack 30,926]

Oh it's an art is it. If Danks answers the questions with I don't know, I don't recall and I refutes allegations, we can it abstract art.

It is plausible that they may have enough evidence to issue infraction notices.

It's definitely an art and there's no abstraction involved even when the person being interviewed is determined to say nothing. I've attended interviews as an observer where interviewees who were determined to reveal nothing but were expertly coaxed into making disclosures by expert interviewers. Sometimes, something seemingly innocuous like a person's body language can tell you something that can be used in later examinations if matters go to court. In any event, you don't give up the ghost because you think the interviewee won't talk (unless you believe that you have sufficient to go on to prove your case).

[beelzebub 23,384]

I am damn curious as to the whole Danks non event but as some others suggest it might have been left alone for various reasons. Certainly one glaring aspect about all of this is the reticence of any party to date to go any where near a court room. One suspects there are just too many skeletons and much too much dirty laundry to even begin lifting a lid without fear it in some manner might not return to smear the instigator. No one is without guilt in some manner in all of this.

The AFL...a total fail in all of this. Seemed far too preoccupied with protecting its brand and the power of certain individuals. Essendon, just about as morally corrupt as any entity can be. Still Cronulla appears worse at their involvement but more circumspect fter the fact. ASADA seems inept and amateur in all of this, totally out of their depth. WADA ..must be shaking their head in dismay as so much can come undone. Various media hacks have shown their true colours and inability to preserve perspective let alone the subject of bias

That said it does appear to be finally drawing to its inevitable conclusion......i.e there were some naughty boys and 'spankies" are the order of the day.

whilst Danks may escape this round of the inquisition I cant help but feel a larger spectre looms over his head.

what ever is going to happen is it seems more than likely to start rolling out over the coming month.

Then it , to this observer, becomes inevitable someone will instigate legal proceedings and then at that time a whole new world of hurt will unveil.

Start looking for who starts making themselves scarce and who looks to other fields to further their careers... rats and ships !!

[Redleg 41,717]

If Notices are served on Bombers players and they fight them, what is the basis of their defence? It can really only be one major point, we didn't take banned substances.

How do you prove that? The club says it has no records. No one at the club can give evidence of exactly what was given, to who and when.That has been stated by the club several times.

Guess who might be the only witness who might have records and might be able to give some evidence in the players' defence?

[Whispering_Jack 30,926]

Patrick Smith's view on Dank - Post-inquiry, star of peptide show will be a thespian without a stage

As it is ASADA did not need to talk to Dank. It was suggested to The Australian yesterday that the details of Danks two interviews by the Australian Crime Commission would have been available to ASADA officials, courtesy one government body to another.

Damning.

[beelzebub 23,384]

You're getting close Red

[Sir Why You Little 37,239]

Of course. Dank has always be the Ace in the pack from Day 1.

I hope WADA are monitoring all this carefully.

[sue 9,151]

Patrick Smith's view on Dank - Post-inquiry, star of peptide show will be a thespian without a stage

This is strong stuff. For those who can't get beyond the paywall, Smith puts the boot into Dank for not clearing Essendon people he claims are innocent by telling all he knows to ASADA. He also comments on the issue of the ACC role which some posters have questioned:

As it is ASADA did not need to talk to Dank. It was suggested to The Australian yesterday that the details of Danks two interviews by the Australian Crime Commission would have been available to ASADA officials, courtesy one government body to another.

...

Dank has played the role of friend and saviour of players and administrators at Cronulla and Essendon.

...

Yet he continues to refuse do the one thing that could have saved them (show cause letters against footballers are being drawn up right now) and that is to tell the appropriate authorities what he knows and what he did.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

If Notices are served on Bombers players and they fight them, what is the basis of their defence? It can really only be one major point, we didn't take banned substances.

How do you prove that? The club says it has no records. No one at the club can give evidence of exactly what was given, to who and when.That has been stated by the club several times.

Guess who might be the only witness who might have records and might be able to give some evidence in the players' defence?

Alternatively if there are no club records what is the basis of the prosecution?

I would expect Notices should be based on more than circumstantial evidence.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

It's definitely an art and there's no abstraction involved even when the person being interviewed is determined to say nothing. I've attended interviews as an observer where interviewees who were determined to reveal nothing but were expertly coaxed into making disclosures by expert interviewers. Sometimes, something seemingly innocuous like a person's body language can tell you something that can be used in later examinations if matters go to court. In any event, you don't give up the ghost because you think the interviewee won't talk (unless you believe that you have sufficient to go on to prove your case).

He has already said to ASADA he won't voluntarily speak unless it's in front of a Federal court judge.

Patrick Smith's view on Dank - Post-inquiry, star of peptide show will be a thespian without a stage

......and given they have access to ACC interviews.....

[dee-luded 2,959]

ASADA wants to sidestep legal action, judging by chief's senate admission

Quote

ASADA's failed attempts to seduce Dank into informal meetings, without threat of penalty, and Andruska's admission before a Senate hearing on Wednesday that briefs are being prepared for the ADRVP is a clear indication the anti-doping authority does not want Australia's most serious drugs case heard in open court.

After all, Dank is the central figure in the saga.

His evidence before a Federal Court could potentially expose a web of officials at either or both Essendon and Cronulla who had intimate knowledge of his supplements program.

This could reveal, as a myth, the notion that Dank was a rogue scientist acting alone.

... and ...

Quote

When I asked why Dank had not been summoned the answer was: "They probably have enough without him."

Andruska's evidence before the Senate hints at both codes possibly being issued with show-cause letters.

She said: "We have briefs that we are preparing right now . . . and [will] issue show-cause letters and take matters through the ADRVP and other tribunals as the process proceeds."

Her mention of the plural with "tribunals" suggests both the AFL and NRL could be asked to convene hearings, provided the ADRVP agrees there is enough evidence.

ASADA wants to sidestep legal action, judging by chief's senate admission

... and ...

Masters is usually right on the ball and we could hear more from him if he appears on this week's edition of Offsiders on ABC1 (and Robbo and Whateley are certain to be entertaining with their spin on AFL360).

Both codes are facing difficult years in 2014 which could be a disaster for Essendon (I think Cronulla are stuffed no matter what) and almost certainly will be Demetriou's final one at the helm of the AFL.

As an aside, the Weapon's case against the Bombers is proceeding and I believe we will hear a lot more from the Fairfax investigative reporters Baker and McKenzie before this plays out. We also have Mark Thompson coaching at Essendon, Doc Reid back as the club doctor and James Hird coach-in-waiting ready to take back his old job in August.

Dramatic and sad times ahead for the sport.

& this is exactly what I've been saying for months. & the Poli's won't want this to go thru the courts either. its a no win for any Poli's.

the hornets nest was opened, & no one elected could cope with the outfall.

this will wither on the vine.

unfortunately another toothless tiger, because proof, & restraint of trade IMO will stop most any charges in their tracks.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I am damn curious as to the whole Danks non event but as some others suggest it might have been left alone for various reasons. Certainly one glaring aspect about all of this is the reticence of any party to date to go any where near a court room. One suspects there are just too many skeletons and much too much dirty laundry to even begin lifting a lid without fear it in some manner might not return to smear the instigator. No one is without guilt in some manner in all of this.

The AFL...a total fail in all of this. Seemed far too preoccupied with protecting its brand and the power of certain individuals. Essendon, just about as morally corrupt as any entity can be. Still Cronulla appears worse at their involvement but more circumspect fter the fact. ASADA seems inept and amateur in all of this, totally out of their depth. WADA ..must be shaking their head in dismay as so much can come undone. Various media hacks have shown their true colours and inability to preserve perspective let alone the subject of bias

That said it does appear to be finally drawing to its inevitable conclusion......i.e there were some naughty boys and 'spankies" are the order of the day.

whilst Danks may escape this round of the inquisition I cant help but feel a larger spectre looms over his head.

what ever is going to happen is it seems more than likely to start rolling out over the coming month.

Then it , to this observer, becomes inevitable someone will instigate legal proceedings and then at that time a whole new world of hurt will unveil.

Start looking for who starts making themselves scarce and who looks to other fields to further their careers... rats and ships !!

ah, beelz... finally

now you see where its going? straight towards the trash corner

[rjay 25,197]

ASADA wants to sidestep legal action, judging by chief's senate admission

Quote

... and ...

Quote

& this is exactly what I've been saying for months. & the Poli's won't want this to go thru the courts either. its a no win for any Poli's.

the hornets nest was opened, & no one elected could cope with the outfall.

this will wither on the vine.

unfortunately another toothless tiger, because proof, & restraint of trade IMO will stop most any charges in their tracks.

Sorry mate I can't see it going this way at all and don't see how you draw that conclusion. This is not a local issue it is a worldwide issue and if the local authorities don't deal with it then the international ones will. There is already pressure from other sports and if you notice one of the tribunals the paper trail goes through has a representative from cycling and they are not going to let any other sport get off lightly after the kicking they've had (admittedly their own fault).