Not at all.

Since Jack Viney and Ollie Wines would essentially perform the same role, one would be missing out on games at the expense of the other.

Are we maybe jumping the gun in proclaiming a first year drafted to be a relative failure?

With Viney, our needs dictated that our pressing need was another "elite" (at junior level) user of the footy.

Wines is not that.

It's possible Wines is better at this strengths than we originally perceived, but that says nothing of his weaknesses.

At the same time, Toumpas has more of the "hard to find" attributes that should make him a success in the future.

I thought as football supporters we were smart enough not to judge kids on their output in their first season?

I assume this post is aimed at me?

At least you've made the conscious decision to engage on a positive level.

For years and years we have maligned the demise of the hard nut at our footy club. We now have two. A third would have been Wines who plays the game with rigour, loves the contest and gets his own ball. I have not seen any of these traits in Jimmy Toumpas.

If we're going down the stats route, we got smashed in clearances in 2012.

Another opportunity gone to recruit a ready made hard nut.

Its about as good an argument though as hypothesising that someone might be better than another through sheer guesstimating Id suggest !!

What If Toumpas is good, but Wines still better ?? Thats just as possible and would sink all the arguments based upon Dimitri skipping past..

What we do KNOW is in front of us. What I know is Id rather Wines assisting in a meaningful manner in the middle, right now.

Wines ( like his mate Viney ) are notorious for tacking all comers on. Little Jimmy isnt at that point.

I havent seen anyone write that Toumpas isnt a quality player . But most of his value lays in his potential. That ought to be the clubs motto. Whats latin for " We draft potential and kill it "

This is exactly how recruiting shouldn't happen.

You are saying here that we should have taken Wines over Toumpas solely and only because Wines would have more of an impact in 2013 than Toumpas.

You do not draft players at pick 4 to have an impact in their first year. You draft them to be 200 game players for your club. Toumpas will do that, and on the evidence of this year, will do that just as well as Wines will, if not better.

Anyone who thinks we would be shooting up the ladder if we'd picked Wines over Toumpas is totally deluded.

No doubt it would change but the argument of a few in here is that we needed to get an 'impact player' with Pick 4.

What nonsense.

You do not draft in the top 10 for the next season's impact. You try and use all your collective brain power and footy knowledge and try to draft the best player when they are 22.

What a ridiculous notion to draft an impact player...

It would be funny if our drafting in the past hadn't been do heinous.

Use trades or the draft after Pick 50 for impact.

It isn't about impact this year so much, it just that Wines has now proven he can cut it at AFL level. I think Toumpas will be okay eventually, but Wines is already a good player. To say that means nothing is not considering all the evidence.

On a slightly different tack. I thought the decision to play him yesterday was one of the best decisions the Club has made in quite a while. It would have been very logical to drop him after the shocker against the Lions the week before. That potentially could have done a lot of damage to the kid's psyche for a long time. Instead of that they gave him another go and he played one of his better games. Great player management as far as I'm concerned.

I am confident he is going to be an absolute gun. His innate ability to know where to run to spread and his composure to pick out best options and then deliver to them accurately can't be taught or developed. He is a player who in Hawthorn, Geelong or Sydney wouldn't have been seen in the firsts this year. He needed a season to get over his surgery and build up his body at Casey. I'm confident this will happen, he's already shown signs of it. But he's shown plenty of the other attributes that will make him a very rare player. Ollie Wines wouldn't have won us any more games than we have won this year. Hopefully we'll recruit a more experienced midfielder next year from another team who will be more ready to go than Wines and then we'll be grateful we've got Toumpas. I'm not knocking Wines by the way. He's had an outstanding season but Toumpas is a rare talent, much rarer than Wines.

It isn't about impact this year so much, it just that Wines has now proven he can cut it at AFL level. I think Toumpas will be okay eventually, but Wines is already a good player. To say that means nothing is not considering all the evidence.

Yes, but what evidence is that used for?

A past decision?

Hypothetical re-ordering of the draft is classic masichism from MFC fans who love to play this 'what if' game.

When you draft a player in the first few rounds of the National Draft you should be choosing the players that will be the best players when the enter their prime.

Just like Nic Nat wouldn't be the player he is now if he was with us, the same can be said for Ollie Wines if he were at Melbourne this year.

When your team is getting smashed week in/week out, it doesn't matter what individual you have in your side.

There is too much talk of individual performance and neglect of the root causes and complexity of issues at our club.

It's plain and simple to me. We need to be absolutely ruthless as a club and strip the list bare. This is about re-conditioning the entire club and moving on players that some will say are too valuable to get rid of. It's about saving this [censored] club.

If we need to trade Frawley or any other high profile player at our club for well developed players and leaders who can change this [censored] place then so be it.

The lack of thinking ability and level of consciousness of players on our list is astounding and I'm going to outline some of the symptoms shown because of this:

Absolutely no ability to execute any sort of game plan.

Terrible decisions and awareness.

No want or desire to lead.

Happy to cruise through AFL football, without too much thought process and individual analysis of what it means to be elite.

The following players are like a virus to our club.

Frawley

Sylvia

Garland

Dunn

Davey

Jamar

All of these players are sick. They are asleep. They have a conditioned mentality which we see on-field weekly. They are all shot. The sooner we move them on, the better for our club.

Watch their [censored] body language onfield. Garland is the only one who gets a pass this year but that's because he is the only one with the capacity to think. The others are sheep. Frawley is a physical monster, but that's it. He has a pea brain which tranlates to his body language onfield and we see it every week. He doesn't think about anything other than himself and his opponent or what he is going to do that night for dinner.. The same can be said for the rest on that list. They are sick. They are complete sheep.

These players are supposed to be our leaders. I want them gone.

Then there's our many number of players that don't have the required skill level to be playing AFL. This can be directly pointed to our terrible drafting over the past few years. Players in this category who are not AFL standard are the following:

McKenzie

Tynan

Nicholson

Spencer

Davis

Evans

Bail

Jetta

Macdonald

None of these players would be starting 22 at other clubs.

The mature age recruits brought in by Neeld to inspire culture change and a mentality change are as follows:

Dawes

Clarke

Byrnes

Rodan

Gillies

Pederson

Sellar

You could hardly say that list have been influential in the transformation of our mentality and playing culture. Dawes and Clarke are the only two valuable players in terms of on and off-field performance. The rest need to go.

Then you have the poor young brigade of talented players who have been on the list for a while now and these poor kids are slowly getting sick as well. Look at the development rate of some of these kids. They have had no real leaders (bar Jones) to look to and two of them are our captains, they have no inspiration and their confidence was shot from day one due to a number of factors and because the team is flogged most weeks. Here they are:

Watts

Trengove

Blease

Strauss

McDonald

Grimes

Tapscott

Gawn

Fitzy

Howe

These players are a part of our future and we need them to be able to push past this Virus at our club just as Jones has. They are sinking however, and it's a worrying sign.

Then we have the untried young brigade who were either drafted last year or have been slowly developing for Casey.

Viney

Toumpas

Hogan

Barry

Kent

Taggart

Matt Jones

Terlich

Clisby

Stark

We must absolutely nurture these players, manage and develop them in the right way for our club to move forward but for this to happen, we need to move on that first group of sick players who have no positive influence for our club or the development of these kids. Whilst some of these guys are considered mature-age players, it's still their first year within the AFL so I've slotted them in. I haven't included Magner or Couch as they are simply depth fillers and we have clearly seen enough to know that they aren't AFL standard either.

Whilst this post is more or less a ramble, I felt the need to spit it all out. These are the issues of our list. It's a sad spot to be in but it is fixable. The more Clarkes' and Dawes' types we bring in and the more Daveys' and Jamar types we move on, the better. It's the only way the list can overcome this illness and before the latest crop of talented youngsters become affected as well.

Please let next year be an absolute overhaul of these sick players who are slowly killing our once mighty club.

Apologies for the long-winded rant. It's over.

Edited July 29, 201311 yr by stevethemanjordan

No doubt it would change but the argument of a few in here is that we needed to get an 'impact player' with Pick 4.

What nonsense.

You do not draft in the top 10 for the next season's impact. You try and use all your collective brain power and footy knowledge and try to draft the best player when they are 22.

What a ridiculous notion to draft an impact player...

It would be funny if our drafting in the past hadn't been do heinous.

Use trades or the draft after Pick 50 for impact.

Spot on, mature age players like Terlich and Matt Jones. The exception for me is project ruckman.

So if we drafted Wines how many more games would we have won?

I think 0.

In 5-7 years wines will be like Sewell, great mid, hard player etc

Toumpas will be more like Pendelbury, class.

Big call, but Toumpas will outshine Wines and if we had wines we would still have 2 wins next to our name.

And as some one who has broken his hip in 4 spots all on the right side, I know how much work there is in getting strength back in the hip.

As some one stated the muscle drops off you very very quickly and it's your core miscles that go first. Took me 3 years to get what I believe to be full strength. Will take Toumpas at least 1.

Please let next year be an absolute overhaul of these sick players who are slowly killing our once mighty club.

Apologies for the long-winded rant. It's over.

Yes, it was quite something.

And it reminds me of the gameplan used by Neeld after his first year in charge. And he only changed 14 players.

You can have your belief that the vast majority of the players should be removed but don't let yourself forget the reality of list management - it cannot be done in one Summer.

I don't want us to take a kid with Pick 100+ because it will mean we are wedded to that player for two years as per the CBA.

We can overhaul the list in a rational manner and if you want to discuss it further, there is a thread on the subject on the Trading Board.

It would be interesting to know how many posters on this site actual attend matches on a regular basis, more importantly over the past 6-8 weeks. I'm lucky to sit on the second teir at the MCG and on the weekend, this enables you to see certain things that you can't see at ground level. One thing Toumpas does is run to the right spots, same as Watts same as Sylvia, we just don't have the courage to hit them, these three players run to damaging positions, our players are scared to kick there because if they miss the target the turnover will kill us, but the reward if they do it is we will most likely score.

Jimmy runs to where we should be kicking the footy, the problem is our players have been coached over the past 18mths to not take risks use the boundary line, don't come up the middle out of defense, switch at all costs, everytime we got the footy in our defensive 50m arc we look across for the switch we are predictable, North just left players out there and we kicked it to them. Dunn and McDonald stare at the switch they don't do it fast it is slow.

I have no concerns that this bloke will be a gun and a lot sooner than we expect, next year with the right coach we will show us what he can do.

Anyone who thinks we would be shooting up the ladder if we'd picked Wines over Toumpas is totally deluded.

Im certainly not suggesting shooting up the ladder would be an outcome. Maybe a more competitive and forward orientated midfield might

This is exactly how recruiting shouldn't happen.

You are saying here that we should have taken Wines over Toumpas solely and only because Wines would have more of an impact in 2013 than Toumpas.

You do not draft players at pick 4 to have an impact in their first year. You draft them to be 200 game players for your club. Toumpas will do that, and on the evidence of this year, will do that just as well as Wines will, if not better.

Thats to suggest that he would have only made some difference this year. Im fully aware of the nature of drafting. My contention is that both are long term prospects. They are slightly different.. One more inside , the other more outside.. Good insiders I would suggest are harder to come by. Evidence our situation currently where we will be desperately seeking some good inside stock this drafting/trading coming.

Funny had we taken Wines we would already have one in the system.

Yes, it was quite something.

And it reminds me of the gameplan used by Neeld after his first year in charge. And he only changed 14 players.

You can have your belief that the vast majority of the players should be removed but don't let yourself forget the reality of list management - it cannot be done in one Summer.

I don't want us to take a kid with Pick 100+ because it will mean we are wedded to that player for two years as per the CBA.

We can overhaul the list in a rational manner and if you want to discuss it further, there is a thread on the subject on the Trading Board.

I don't wish to engage in a battle of ego's with you. ("yes, it was quite something")

It's not about a view. It's about getting those perpetrators out and bringing in well developed, smart and strong minded players from other clubs like we've done with Clarke and Dawes as well as continue to draft and nurture the right players. I've never said everyone goes in one year. I've said the sooner they go, the better and that's the truth if we get the right players for them.

Yes, but what evidence is that used for?

A past decision?

Hypothetical re-ordering of the draft is classic masichism from MFC fans who love to play this 'what if' game.

When you draft a player in the first few rounds of the National Draft you should be choosing the players that will be the best players when the enter their prime.

I am not tearing my hair out with Toumpas, but surely we are allowed to evaluate the success of our drafting, even early on.

I don't wish to engage in a battle of ego's with you. ("yes, it was quite something")

It's not about a view. It's about getting those perpetrators out and bringing in well developed, smart and strong minded players from other clubs like we've done with Clarke and Dawes as well as continue to draft and nurture the right players. I've never said everyone goes in one year. I've said the sooner they go, the better and that's the truth if we get the right players for them.

Battle of Ego's?

You called it a rant. Personally, I thought it was better thought out than a rant.

My point is that it isn't a case of 'sooner the better.'

List management is an art form in need of some science.

We have got quite a few players that I don't think much of - and some that I am sure I will come to that conclusion - but we have to be methodical about how we do this.

Unless we get something in FA I can see us only parting with Gillies, Sellar, Davis, Rodan, Jetta, and McDonald because of what we could bring in.

I am not tearing my hair out with Toumpas, but surely we are allowed to evaluate the success of our drafting, even early on.

Of course you are.

Although this is very early.

But the point I made in the post was that it is not advisable to draft for immediate impact.

Top draft picks should be investments in the future, not used to acquire 18 year olds to compete straight away.

If you want that - trade the pick for a known commodity to perform straight away.

Battle of Ego's?

You called it a rant. Personally, I thought it was better thought out than a rant.

My point is that it isn't a case of 'sooner the better.'

List management is an art form in need of some science.

We have got quite a few players that I don't think much of - and some that I am sure I will come to that conclusion - but we have to be methodical about how we do this.

Unless we get something in FA I can see us only parting with Gillies, Sellar, Davis, Rodan, Jetta, and McDonald because of what we could bring in.

It sounded like a snide remark to me RP.

List management obviously needs to be well thought out. I will give you an example of what I'm trying to say.

If we have the opportunity to free up some cash and bring in a mentality shifter of some sort then I would encourage players like Frawley and Sylvia to go it as I think neither of them offer anything in terms of strong leadership and inspiration to our younger brigade. They are cancerous and neither of them care.

We need to start doing these things to move our club along.

Just like Nic Nat wouldn't be the player he is now if he was with us, the same can be said for Ollie Wines if he were at Melbourne this year.

When your team is getting smashed week in/week out, it doesn't matter what individual you have in your side.

There is too much talk of individual performance and neglect of the root causes and complexity of issues at our club.

It's plain and simple to me. We need to be absolutely ruthless as a club and strip the list bare. This is about re-conditioning the entire club and moving on players that some will say are too valuable to get rid of. It's about saving this [censored] club.

If we need to trade Frawley or any other high profile player at our club for well developed players and leaders who can change this [censored] place then so be it.

The lack of thinking ability and level of consciousness of players on our list is astounding and I'm going to outline some of the symptoms shown because of this:

Absolutely no ability to execute any sort of game plan.

Terrible decisions and awareness.

No want or desire to lead.

Happy to cruise through AFL football, without too much thought process and individual analysis of what it means to be elite.

The following players are like a virus to our club.

Frawley

Sylvia

Garland

Dunn

Davey

Jamar

All of these players are sick. They are asleep. They have a conditioned mentality which we see on-field weekly. They are all shot. The sooner we move them on, the better for our club.

Watch their [censored] body language onfield. Garland is the only one who gets a pass this year but that's because he is the only one with the capacity to think. The others are sheep. Frawley is a physical monster, but that's it. He has a pea brain which tranlates to his body language onfield and we see it every week. He doesn't think about anything other than himself and his opponent or what he is going to do that night for dinner.. The same can be said for the rest on that list. They are sick. They are complete sheep.

These players are supposed to be our leaders. I want them gone.

Then there's our many number of players that don't have the required skill level to be playing AFL. This can be directly pointed to our terrible drafting over the past few years. Players in this category who are not AFL standard are the following:

McKenzie

Tynan

Nicholson

Spencer

Davis

Evans

Bail

Jetta

Macdonald

None of these players would be starting 22 at other clubs.

The mature age recruits brought in by Neeld to inspire culture change and a mentality change are as follows:

Dawes

Clarke

Byrnes

Rodan

Gillies

Pederson

Sellar

You could hardly say that list have been influential in the transformation of our mentality and playing culture. Dawes and Clarke are the only two valuable players in terms of on and off-field performance. The rest need to go.

Then you have the poor young brigade of talented players who have been on the list for a while now and these poor kids are slowly getting sick as well. Look at the development rate of some of these kids. They have had no real leaders (bar Jones) to look to and two of them are our captains, they have no inspiration and their confidence was shot from day one due to a number of factors and because the team is flogged most weeks. Here they are:

Watts

Trengove

Blease

Strauss

McDonald

Grimes

Tapscott

Gawn

Fitzy

Howe

These players are a part of our future and we need them to be able to push past this Virus at our club just as Jones has. They are sinking however, and it's a worrying sign.

Then we have the untried young brigade who were either drafted last year or have been slowly developing for Casey.

Viney

Toumpas

Hogan

Barry

Kent

Taggart

Matt Jones

Terlich

Clisby

Stark

We must absolutely nurture these players, manage and develop them in the right way for our club to move forward but for this to happen, we need to move on that first group of sick players who have no positive influence for our club or the development of these kids. Whilst some of these guys are considered mature-age players, it's still their first year within the AFL so I've slotted them in. I haven't included Magner or Couch as they are simply depth fillers and we have clearly seen enough to know that they aren't AFL standard either.

Whilst this post is more or less a ramble, I felt the need to spit it all out. These are the issues of our list. It's a sad spot to be in but it is fixable. The more Clarkes' and Dawes' types we bring in and the more Daveys' and Jamar types we move on, the better. It's the only way the list can overcome this illness and before the latest crop of talented youngsters become affected as well.

Please let next year be an absolute overhaul of these sick players who are slowly killing our once mighty club.

Apologies for the long-winded rant. It's over.

i have to say i agree with every word of this. The last phase of the club has been a complete failure.

There are only very few on our list who can carry the club forward. They are mentally scarred. They cannot perform on match day.

Edited July 29, 201311 yr by why you little

It sounded like a snide remark to me RP.

List management obviously needs to be well thought out. I will give you an example of what I'm trying to say.

If we have the opportunity to free up some cash and bring in a mentality shifter of some sort then I would encourage players like Frawley and Sylvia to go it as I think neither of them offer anything in terms of strong leadership and inspiration to our younger brigade. They are cancerous and neither of them care.

We need to start doing these things to move our club along.

By all means see what is out there.

But don't burn people to a point where we have to move them for very little.

How we handled Moloney's exit from a list management POV was atrocious.

First we diminished his value by making him well aware he was not wanted through comments fo the coach and the selection committee, and secondly we made it clear to the footy public that this RFA was not welcome back at the club.

If you have a commodity you want to get rid of.

Don't force that commodity out until you have something coming back the other way, and don't just let that commodity go for nothing on the market.

This is probably best placed on the other Forum.

I like the Toump. He has exactly what we need in terms of skills by hand and foot. All game plans in modern footy depend on players having the ability to hit targets. We are beyond woeful in this regard.

My query on Toump is his fitness and his speed. I know he had hip problems and did not have a full preseason as a result but i was behind the goals on the weekend (city end) and there was one play in the forward pocket where the Toump had to chase a man. He was too slow to catch him (i forget who kicked it but he got a goal) and he was completely exhausted after it, despite it not being a huge chase.

I have little idea if the kid has it or not at AFL level.

But lets keep in mind at all the clubs above us he would probably not have played a game yet.

He is a first year player like Viney.

With a very few exceptions first year draftees take two to three years to develop into AFL players.

I doubt at this point it is his fault, it is the crap around him that is the problem.

Thats to suggest that he would have only made some difference this year. Im fully aware of the nature of drafting. My contention is that both are long term prospects. They are slightly different.. One more inside , the other more outside.. Good insiders I would suggest are harder to come by. Evidence our situation currently where we will be desperately seeking some good inside stock this drafting/trading coming.

Funny had we taken Wines we would already have one in the system.

That's absolutely not what your contention has been until now. You've continually said that Wines is able to impact games right now, and as such, is the player we should have taken.

Nonetheless, if you want to say that both are long term prospects, then why are you complaining? If you're happy to admit that both Wines and Toumpas are going to reach their prime in future years, why does what Wines is doing right now matter?

It doesn't.

I like the Toump. He has exactly what we need in terms of skills by hand and foot. All game plans in modern footy depend on players having the ability to hit targets. We are beyond woeful in this regard.

My query on Toump is his fitness and his speed. I know he had hip problems and did not have a full preseason as a result but i was behind the goals on the weekend (city end) and there was one play in the forward pocket where the Toump had to chase a man. He was too slow to catch him (i forget who kicked it but he got a goal) and he was completely exhausted after it, despite it not being a huge chase.

I wonder if backing up from Geelong in the wet and Darwin in the past fortnight took its toll on his clearly underdeveloped body.

You'd hope, with the coming pre-season, his fitness improves next year, as that's definitely something (along with his strength) that he needs to work on to get the most out of his skills and smarts.

It would be interesting to know how many posters on this site actual attend matches on a regular basis, more importantly over the past 6-8 weeks. I'm lucky to sit on the second teir at the MCG and on the weekend, this enables you to see certain things that you can't see at ground level. One thing Toumpas does is run to the right spots, same as Watts same as Sylvia, we just don't have the courage to hit them, these three players run to damaging positions, our players are scared to kick there because if they miss the target the turnover will kill us, but the reward if they do it is we will most likely score.

Jimmy runs to where we should be kicking the footy, the problem is our players have been coached over the past 18mths to not take risks use the boundary line, don't come up the middle out of defense, switch at all costs, everytime we got the footy in our defensive 50m arc we look across for the switch we are predictable, North just left players out there and we kicked it to them. Dunn and McDonald stare at the switch they don't do it fast it is slow.

I have no concerns that this bloke will be a gun and a lot sooner than we expect, next year with the right coach we will show us what he can do.

I'm with you on the positioning and running. He has what most of the players on our list right now don't have - footy smarts.

That's absolutely not what your contention has been until now. You've continually said that Wines is able to impact games right now, and as such, is the player we should have taken.

Really.. I may have given more body to my stance but its the same one.

Wines and Toupmas are like any kids with ability hopefully long term ( 150-200 ) game prospects. Im not sure where I havent thought this.

Also Ive said that imho Wines is Inside meat and veg, Toumpas outside icing on cake.

Toumpas is 2-3 years away from being anything of real note.

Wines is doing real and meaningful things RIGHT NOW .

If I had the pick..I would have chosen Wines over Toumpas...doesnt even bear 5 secs thinking really// What do we lack ?? Go at it inside mids.

Please explain your thinking Ive changed my tune

Anyone who thinks we would be shooting up the ladder if we'd picked Wines over Toumpas is totally deluded.

It's not about shooting up the ladder.

It's about stripping the culture of meekness and getting some combative spirit on the list.