Constructive Dissection

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Neeld said it himself. We are one top midfielder short of what he wants in terms of putting the list together.

While he destroys the list he has got. We are at least 4-5 midfielders short.

[rpfc 28,476]

I have learnt that making an 'Best 22 capable of winning a flag' is a hiding to nothing.

You can have a great forward line and it might be starved of opportunities, you may have a great backline and it may be over worked and bombarded.

It all comes down to the middle of the ground: we are talented in there but not tested or experienced.

Midfielders in their PRIME (Age: 22+ , Games: 70+): Jones, Sylvia, and Rodan.

Where does the improvement come from?

Magner 25, 17 games

Jones 25, 5 games

Couch 24, 3 games

Bail 24, 39 games

Grimes 23, 58 games

McKenzie 22, 59 games

Howe 22, 40 games

Nicholson 22, 22 games

Blease 22, 24 games

Tapscott 21, 33 games

Trengove 21, 63 games

Evans 20, 7 games

Taggert 19, 0 games

Tynan 19, 2 games

Toumpas 19, 3 games

Kent 19, 0 games

Barry 19, 0 games

Viney 19, 0 games

Stark 18, 0 games

That is every midfielder on the list that may make it to their prime, whatever that prime may be.

Years away from prime

1: Grimes, McKenzie, and Trengove.

2: Bail, Howe, and Tapscott.

3: Magner, M Jones, Nicholson, Blease, and Evans.

4: Couch, Taggert, Tynan, Toumpas, Kent, Barry, Viney, and Stark.

Now this is not an exact science, far from it. But you can see where our talent is and how far they are from being able to shoulder the load for us to be good team.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

Honestly?! And I thought our players were a laughing stock!

I like the look of Terlich but he has played 2 or 3 games and you are hanging your hopes on him as a premiership component. We've seen even less of Toumpas so let's wait till he gets a kick before we pencil him in

Jones and Clark are likely to be long gone by the time we have any sort of "premiership window".

Sylvia - give me a break. He will be 30 and some people will still be waiting for this [censored] to realise that "potential"

Frawley gets beaten more than a red headed step child

McDonald ain't gonna make it

Trengove if we are honest is an average toiler.

Definition of constructive

adjective

• 1having or intended to have a useful or beneficial purpose:constructive advice

Fantasy is not useful or beneficial

When it turns it will turn quickly.

Spoken to any Port fans lately? They're not talking about 2012. They're loving this game.

Sydney got flogged by us and rebounded to win a premiership less than 50 games later.

When Geelong found belief their rise was sudden.

Even Melbourne in 2000 showed that a rapid rise is possible.

The demographic of this team means that in 2 - 3 years we'll have the experience to be a contender. Whether we have the quality in the midfield is another matter.

It's easy to spread the doom and the gloom. Finding light at the end of the tunnel takes far more vision.

My vision involves us securing a topline midfielder like Thomas and drafting a ready made star like Selwood. Put Thomas and Selwood into our midfield and add another 2 - 3 seasons of experience to Viney and Toumpas as well as the addition of Jones plus Trengove, Grimes, Sylvia and Howe rotating through and we've got to be getting closer to having a top 4 midfield. As the Swans have shown, a competitive, disciplined, hard working midfield that follows September-driven structures with a couple of game changing forwards can win a flag. In Clark and Hogan I think we have the game turners to be a serious football side.

My vision might be fanciful but I prefer it a hell of alot to the Fitzroy-esque devastation that most here seem to take joy in spewing forth. At the end of the day, I follow a footy team and following footy should be fun. I don't know how most of you guys continue to get to games and log in here when you're so devoid of hope. I don't have much hope left either but I'm hanging on to the romantic view that one day we might just get there and in the meantime I try to enjoy the journey and visualise how this crap that we're currently enduring may one day be remembered as the start of something special. Why else would you bother?

Edited April 29, 2013 by Goodvibes

[Adam The God 30,261]

We need a at least one A-Grade midfielder who can read the ball off either ruck, get it on the move, and release others into space with precision handball. Think Black, Priddis, Watson, etc. They don't grow on trees, but are invaluable.

First use mids, who can get it outside with clean disposal is a must.

I think Viney will be more of your bullocking Joel Selwood type, and Toumpas will hopefully be some outside class.

Nathan Jones would need to be our 3rd or 4th best mid playing at his current level, for our group to be at the next level.

That's my take on it anyway.

I completely agree, Jerry. Our midfield will be in good shape if Jones is the third or fourth in line. It means he doesn't get the tag. He was leading clearance winner in the competition over the first couple of weeks, but was obviously tagged out of it yesterday. I think Viney has the ability to learn fast, but I concur with the idea that we need at least another one or two cusp of A grade mids. It will elevate our entire midfield. The likes of Trengove will lift another peg and it would allow he and Toumpas to be the icing on the cake.

Edited April 29, 2013 by AdamFarr

[3183 Dee 2,853]

Great thread!

I don't think you can look past Geelong for how to assemble the perfect side - they are so well-tuned, that even with the loss of their star playmaker and a new coach, they've managed to consistently perform to the highest standard. The idea of building that sort of dynasty at Melbourne is why I'm prepared to give Neeld some more time to perfect his systems and try and create a group that has a really tight core, which gradually spreads across every player at the club.

Defence: We look shaky at the back: part of that could be that the defence is having to handle so much on their own. We need a couple of quick rebound players that can bring the ball out of defence accurately and intelligently.

Mids: I think that the right midfielders need to have a mix of 'bash and crash' and decent ball skills. We're really lacking here at the moment, which is no great surprise to anyone, so I think that probably two high quality, experienced mids are required and the best mid possible in the draft.

Forwards: As others have said, this is where we look good potentially - Dawes, Clark, Hogan leading the attack with the likes of Howe, maybe Blease and a crumber or two helping out. Our service has been pretty poor to the forwards this year, but I think that our ratio of inside 50s to goals scored is one of the highest in the competition, which shows that the job can be done when the pill is up there. Great having Max Gawn as an option up top as well - I think he will be number one ruck by the end of the year.

Going back to my original point, I think that sometimes out of adversity can come great strength and I think that there is a core group of talented players starting to develop at Melbourne - the older(!) heads like Jones, Clark, Dawes, Grimes and the young guns in Hogan, Viney, Evans, Gawn, hopefully Toumpas. That's still not that many, though, which is why this is going to take some time.

[Adam The God 30,261]

My shopping list for the offseason:

1 x A-Grade free agent mid (maybe Daisy?)

1 x Very good 24-27 year old midfielder traded in

2 x Young gun midfielders through draft

1 x Young ruckman through draft

Concur again, Stuie. So essentially by 2014, we'd have a new A grade mid (say the free agent), a mature-bodied 24-27 year old B grade mid, two youngsters to compete with the Matt Jones's and another player hopefully putting pressure on Jamar and Spencer. Gawn is coming along beautifully. Hopefully he can stay injury free and continue to improve his tap work. His work rate around the ground, his marking and his kicking have all risen to another level. Really impressed with Big Maxy.

Now if Nathan Jones continues his rise to A grade, Viney and Toumpas with season's under their belt, plus those new ins, I think we're looking at strong improvement, providing the mindset is strengthened. Come 2014, with another pre season under Misson and the injection of another key forward in Hogan (covering the probable injuries throughout the season to Clark and Dawes), providing our work rate and structures have improved, the MFC will have a chance to finally push some teams.

[Adam The God 30,261]

Processes...

... get the processes right,,, the Team Value Systems...

Non Negotiables should be set in stone... compete & contest,,, tackling,,, chasing,,, going in when its your turn,,, respecting the jumper & your clubmates by giving all,,, showing courage in fear situations,,, being Inclusive to all,,, Set the Examples OnField

we should not except any player, Not Doing, what should be done. No one, should be above the Team Values

... the Culture is the life, or the death

Well said, Dee-luded. Processes are vital. Non-negotiables and in particular adherence to defensive and attacking structures, are arguably the most crucial points to both the short and long term success of our club. We can make all the personnel changes in the world, but if the players aren't meeting these non-negotiables, it's thoroughly futile.

Now I admit we're only five games in, but in terms of our list, where specifically can you see the improvement coming from?

Edited April 29, 2013 by AdamFarr

[Adam The God 30,261]

Got to get an A+ grade mid 24-26yr old with 100+ games under their belt. OOC, in-contract, RFA.... I don't care. Just get one!

Two would be better

Wouldn't it be good if Nate Jones was our 3rd or 4th best midfielder, instead of our only consistent performer (obviously didn't have a great one on Sunday). No disrespect to him, but I'm sure he'd like to have a couple of mid career, absolute gun mids to share the load with. Imagine him if we had someone of the ilk of Watson AND Pendles by his side. Plenty of other clubs have 2, 3 or more A grade mids. When was the last time we had a real champion midfielder?

Exactly. I mentioned in a thread the other day, I don't believe I've seen an absolute champion midfielder in my 25 years.

[Adam The God 30,261]

We did try to get Monfries and Boak and Caddy and Ray and a few others I imagine. Can't be accused of not trying. The mid-field fix will take three years. Who is going to be around to celebrate? Me for one!

I wasn't aware we went after Monfries. That's interesting if true. Where did you hear that? I wouldn't say no to him, but I think we have his position covered with Howe. Our bloke is more flexible though. I wouldn't class Monfries as a crumber. I believe we need at least one, probably two crumbers. We need to ensure defensive pressure is apparent coming out of our attacking 50. The threat of being run down by a speedster cannot be underestimated. Additional pressure for defenders to deal with. Remember how effective Davey was in this role, albeit in a different era?

[Adam The God 30,261]

Good thread, nice work Adam.

A decent midfield seems to require players who can work well with the clearances, and players who can run and spread and deliver the ball with precision inside 50. Not only does Melbourne not have enough of either category, we seem to have attempted to fill these groups with players who are either one or the other (i.e. 'inside' or 'outside'). Thus, we have Jones, Trengove, Grimes, McKenzie, Viney in one group, with Blease, Strauss, Davey, Bail in the other group (amongst others).

To me, Sylvia is the only one who transcends both groups. And this is our problem. Jobe Watson isn't 'inside' or 'outside', he's both. Nor is Judd. Or Pendlebury. Or many other A-grade mids. It's not a problem to have players like Jones in the side, but we seem to always look to either 'inside' or 'outside' players.

I completely agree, Titan. I wonder if this has anything to do with our knack for struggling to develop players. They stagnate in our environment. Viney seems like he has the attributes to transcend, as you put it, both categories.

Our mids don't appear as fit (aerobically or strength-wise) as others' either. They also seem to operate either in 'offence' mode or 'defence' mode, not being able to combine both.

I don't think our defence is all that bad. It's having to deal with the toughest situation for a defence - the ball just streams in without much pressure, and that makes it hard for us to defend. However, there are issues nonetheless. Tom McDonald looks worse than last year, Frawley isn't rebounding as well as 2010/2011. Too many of our defenders can't kick (Terlich, Nicholson, Grimes, McDonald), which makes us turn it over in the back half too much, and that hurts our defence more than anything.

I think the lack of options (due to little spread) often makes our disposal appear worse than it is. Though, there are times when we plainly cannot hit viable targets under little pressure.

Our forward line doesn't phase me too much. With Clark, Dawes and Hogan to play tall, resting ruckmen floating down there (Gawn plays FF well enough), and Howe (who should be playing permanently as a marking forward, similarly to Chris Mayne), we probably still lack a crumber, but Davey can play that role, and I think he should be tasked with doing so, and we probably lack defensive pressure, which players like Davey, Jetta and Bail can and do provide.

The one thing I've noticed about Davey this year is that he often fails to complete tackles. I've been wondering whether this is the extra miles in the legs from pre season. Still it is a worry.

[Ted Lasso 19,518]

i think realistically if we are going to persist with Neeld we should consider spending the money to get choco williams to come over as a head of player development coach, let's not leave any more of our high draft picks to under develop as they seem to be doing,

consider trying to appoint cameron ling or brett kirk as a midfield coach ( two blokes from the two best cultures in the competition ) they will quickly identify the differences and work to fix this

David Misson i trust to know what he is doing in terms of the fitness side of things, has been involved in good teams, knows what it takes and has done wonder for our injury list

Target an elite midfielder plain and simple we need at least 1 quality midfielder this trade period

Be honest and open with the fans, we are struggling and it's hard for everyone but i don't believe our chance to have a successful period like Geelong or Sydney with this group is gone if we work things out now.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Put Watts in

put him in,,,, Watt about, 'He' Deemands,,, to be put In?

he's not a passenger, he's meant to be a player after 3 + Years, he's into his 4th season now & has played 59 games... its time he shows some heart...

He has the capacity to turn up his own wick & his own intensity.

C'mon Jack, leave the boy next door at home, & bring some "Whiteline Fever" with you to the game. your teammates need you to Fire Up Son.

[3183 Dee 2,853]

Now I admit we're only five games in, but in terms of our list, where specifically can you see the improvement coming from?

Apart from the few standouts, I'd say that Evans, Gawn, Terlich, M Jones, Viney, maybe Bail and hopefully Toumpas will improve our side.

[Adam The God 30,261]

I think Evans has the potential to be one our better midfielders when you consider how much footy he has missed over the last couple of years, and how well he has played since coming into the side. I think he has definite upside.

Agreed. I believe he has some of the best skills and spread in our midfield. I'm hoping he can add a tougher defensive side to his game, because I can see him filling a forward flanker/wingman role with a licence to float forward and hit the scoreboard.

[Moonshadow 17,676]

Exactly. I mentioned in a thread the other day, I don't believe I've seen an absolute champion midfielder in my 25 years.

Todd Viney? Robbie Flower, Brian Wilson? Wilson more of a forward at the Dees, though.

[Robbie57 2,020]

More threads like this please a welcome change.

[Adam The God 30,261]

You have asked where can the current list improve? I would add another dimension of whom we may lose as out of contract players at seasons end.

I was concerned when so many older players came on the list and worried that the coach was topping up to win some extra games and shore up his contract after a shocking first year.

We have Tynan, Taggert, Strauss, Kent, Barry, Fitzpatrick and Davis who we have no idea if they can play as we haven't seen much of them for a variety of reasons so it is time to see if they can play. I would go smaller with our line ups as there are too many tales and by that I mean players who take contested marks.

I think goodvibes has the skeleton of the team but I think we need to outsource. If Neeld really had read the book "Moneyball" he would have targeted clearance specialists and known ball winners. Rodan, Byrnes, Pederson and Gillies do not fit into that category and I reckon the FD just took whoever was available.

I can see big improvement in Gawn and his 2nd efforts are sensational. Michael Evans has been worth the wait he will run and Hogan will be the most anticipated arrival next year.

I think we have to ensure that our midfield has significantly stronger firepower by Round 1 next year, otherwise Hogan will be playing in a lot of losing teams in 2014. On the other hand, if we can begin to get a midfield mix that are winning close to their fair share of clearances, all of a sudden Hogan becomes a massive in.

[Adam The God 30,261]

Reality is always useful

Where can you see improvement coming from though, G&D? Not simply who you think won't make it.

[Adam The God 30,261]

I have learnt that making an 'Best 22 capable of winning a flag' is a hiding to nothing.

You can have a great forward line and it might be starved of opportunities, you may have a great backline and it may be over worked and bombarded.

It all comes down to the middle of the ground: we are talented in there but not tested or experienced.

Midfielders in their PRIME (Age: 22+ , Games: 70+): Jones, Sylvia, and Rodan.

Where does the improvement come from?

Magner 25, 17 games

Jones 25, 5 games

Couch 24, 3 games

Bail 24, 39 games

Grimes 23, 58 games

McKenzie 22, 59 games

Howe 22, 40 games

Nicholson 22, 22 games

Blease 22, 24 games

Tapscott 21, 33 games

Trengove 21, 63 games

Evans 20, 7 games

Taggert 19, 0 games

Tynan 19, 2 games

Toumpas 19, 3 games

Kent 19, 0 games

Barry 19, 0 games

Viney 19, 0 games

Stark 18, 0 games

That is every midfielder on the list that may make it to their prime, whatever that prime may be.

Years away from prime

1: Grimes, McKenzie, and Trengove.

2: Bail, Howe, and Tapscott.

3: Magner, M Jones, Nicholson, Blease, and Evans.

4: Couch, Taggert, Tynan, Toumpas, Kent, Barry, Viney, and Stark.

Now this is not an exact science, far from it. But you can see where our talent is and how far they are from being able to shoulder the load for us to be good team.

Great post, rpfc, as usual. It tells me more than ever that we need to trade in experienced mids, otherwise our new talent (the Viney's, Toumpas's, Jones's etc) will have to bear the brunt of pressure early on, which could be detrimental to their development. You could argue this has already been the case with Trengove and Grimes. Would you consider trading our first or second pick in the 2014 draft for an A grade mid from another club? Perhaps even trading our top two picks for two A graders? The latter is probably a little bit fanciful.

[Adam The God 30,261]

When it turns it will turn quickly.

Spoken to any Port fans lately? They're not talking about 2012. They're loving this game.

Sydney got flogged by us and rebounded to win a premiership less than 50 games later.

When Geelong found belief their rise was sudden.

Even Melbourne in 2000 showed that a rapid rise is possible.

The demographic of this team means that in 2 - 3 years we'll have the experience to be a contender. Whether we have the quality in the midfield is another matter.

It's easy to spread the doom and the gloom. Finding light at the end of the tunnel takes far more vision.

My vision involves us securing a topline midfielder like Thomas and drafting a ready made star like Selwood. Put Thomas and Selwood into our midfield and add another 2 - 3 seasons of experience to Viney and Toumpas as well as the addition of Jones plus Trengove, Grimes, Sylvia and Howe rotating through and we've got to be getting closer to having a top 4 midfield. As the Swans have shown, a competitive, disciplined, hard working midfield that follows September-driven structures with a couple of game changing forwards can win a flag. In Clark and Hogan I think we have the game turners to be a serious football side.

My vision might be fanciful but I prefer it a hell of alot to the Fitzroy-esque devastation that most here seem to take joy in spewing forth. At the end of the day, I follow a footy team and following footy should be fun. I don't know how most of you guys continue to get to games and log in here when you're so devoid of hope. I don't have much hope left either but I'm hanging on to the romantic view that one day we might just get there and in the meantime I try to enjoy the journey and visualise how this crap that we're currently enduring may one day be remembered as the start of something special. Why else would you bother?

What a fantastic post. I agree, goodvibes. I'm enjoying this thread. It's making me realise that if we can get the non-negotiables right and inject two A graders into this midfield, the tide could turn sharply in our favour.

[rpfc 28,476]

Great post, rpfc, as usual. It tells me more than ever that we need to trade in experienced mids, otherwise our new talent (the Viney's, Toumpas's, Jones's etc) will have to bear the brunt of pressure early on, which could be detrimental to their development. You could argue this has already been the case with Trengove and Grimes. Would you consider trading our first or second pick in the 2014 draft for an A grade mid from another club? Perhaps even trading our top two picks for two A graders? The latter is probably a little bit fanciful.

If you are going to get a sure thing for 7+ years then of course you give up that pick.

We need to continue targetting players from other clubs who have played 60/70/80 games and we think can make the next step.

We are not going to get stars in any other way than the draft - but we can short circuit the process somewhat if you get blokes who have already had 3 or 4 seasons of preparation.

[Adam The God 30,261]

i think realistically if we are going to persist with Neeld we should consider spending the money to get choco williams to come over as a head of player development coach, let's not leave any more of our high draft picks to under develop as they seem to be doing,

consider trying to appoint cameron ling or brett kirk as a midfield coach ( two blokes from the two best cultures in the competition ) they will quickly identify the differences and work to fix this

David Misson i trust to know what he is doing in terms of the fitness side of things, has been involved in good teams, knows what it takes and has done wonder for our injury list

Target an elite midfielder plain and simple we need at least 1 quality midfielder this trade period

Be honest and open with the fans, we are struggling and it's hard for everyone but i don't believe our chance to have a successful period like Geelong or Sydney with this group is gone if we work things out now.

I agree with almost everything you say here, DF26, except the point about Williams and player development. Craig is essentially in this role already and cannot be held accountable for our history of failed player development. I think you're spot on about midfield coaches though. We need someone from a successful culture, who knows what it means to be successful. I don't rate Royal, but he's never been apart of an ultimately successful coaching team. Get someone in who has.

Edited April 29, 2013 by AdamFarr

[Adam The God 30,261]

Todd Viney? Robbie Flower, Brian Wilson? Wilson more of a forward at the Dees, though.

Missed Robbie and Brian. Was around for Todd. He was tough as nails, but his inconsistent disposal used to kill me. He was a B grader. Loved watching him play though.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Well said, Dee-luded. Processes are vital. Non-negotiables and in particular adherence to defensive and attacking structures, are arguably the most crucial points to both the short and long term success of our club. We can make all the personnel changes in the world, but if the players aren't meeting these non-negotiables, it's thoroughly futile.

Now I admit we're only five games in, but in terms of our list, where specifically can you see the improvement coming from?

To me, its the pride in your performance...

the pride that comes from a genuine admiration from a teammate after you've done a sacrificial act, for the player or club. to proverbially run thru a brick wall for the side.

I just went thru some of the 1st Qtr replay, & I can see it wasn't watts unsettling the team, at least not up to where I've watched,,, but rather the Lions players & midfielders gave us a real workover since the first bounce.

Even in the ruck where the Lions sent in Billy Longer to jump over & into Jamar, & upset him from the first bounce.. It looked like they tried to intimidate us physically from the start, as a plan.

And this can only point to the fact that they, & the competition, still think we are soft & prone to be intimidated & put off our game.

It looks to me like we were pressured heavily around all the stoppages & they were literally hanging off us defensively, to pressure us into fumbling & coughing up the footy... It worked & it seemed to cause us to stop working hard @ presenting, & generally running.

We went into our shell, which is what they wanted, & it was too easy...

The defensive work the Lions employed was fantastic, & they turned up to play, but it wasn't difficult. they choked up the ground down the line, ahead of where we were attacking, & on the fat side, their players kept a tight check on our players on the switch. they gave us No room & we didn't run. essentially we kicked back into a contest or a pack.

Moving the ball quickly & with strong run is the way thru this from the back. but we need players with a take it on attitude, & to bust their

guts running hard for the team... And we need the team to spread & take their opponents wide... this in turn requires players capable

of winning one on one contests, which brings us right back the where we were.. that our players need more aggression at the contest, & at the man.

there is no easy way thru were we are at, because in this game of rotations,, & sports science, the opponents who have already mature bodies & tanks, have such an advantage over rebuilding teams it is ridiculous... this is where our youth rebuild got caught out... just the timing of it, plus some ordinary decisions.

In hindsight, we really should have changed coach around 2005 instead of 2007, but those in charge couldn't see the writing on the wall. It took another 2 Years to become obvious to all supporters that we were found out in 2007 & change belatedly happened.

Its taken us 4 Yrs to get some things right & we also make some bad choices.

Now we are on the correct path, but the punters are getting worried, & an air of panic & impatience is about...

we have to stick to the path, with this off field team we have in place, & continue to work this group hard, re fitness & strength.

We have a lot of football to learn...

& we have to recruit to add more quality & leadership to the group.

another experienced quality running mid would be good, & we really need a bulldozer inside winning possessions. and our players have to learn to play for one another around the stoppages, with blocks & support. we are too young across the field.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Todd Viney? Robbie Flower, Brian Wilson? Wilson more of a forward at the Dees, though.

Flower finished 1987, & Wilson 1990.

Toddy was still going, but thats not many thru the 90's?