A dose of reality

[skills32 229]

I have been following his site and Demonology for about 8 years and every year at this time of the year, you can just about script every post word for word; only changing names.

I have nothing against people jumping up and down suggesting this is who we should trade for whomever or we have to draft this bloke etc in fact I admire supporters who try to help the club in making difficult decisions.

What I do have a problem with however is that nobody gets things right.

I haven't a great recollection of draftees names but the names Salopek and Polec immediately come to mind, very much wanted but not got.

If we had have taken them this site would be in meltdown now.

I never heard a bleat from anyone wanting Rioli, of the Cyril variety that is, but I dare say that if he was in this draft; Jack Viney's name would not have been mentioned and there would be threads saying Hogan who? and who is Toumpas and Whitfield etc.

Do posters read the papers and think he sounds good, lets get him, or do they follow the combine to make their decision, or do they look at videos (dangerous thing to do if you play golf) and like what they see from 2 minutes of a players whole career or do they actually go to games and look out for potential players.

The funny thing about all this is that on Demonology at the time of the Scully drafting, someone (no I won't mention your name Deers ) posted stats from the u18s carnival that showed Scully's Kicking efficiency at about 70%, so I posted that maybe he is not as good as he is cracked up to be. Well that went down like a lead balloon but in retrospect it wasn't too far off the mark. And I'm just a nobody that lives in Thailand and to be honest I don't have a clue but I have played a lot of footy do look at things objectively.

Can't see why people get so worked up about the trade/draft period. What is going to happen is going to happen and there is nothing you or I can do to change it.

Is there any one that contributes at this time prepared to tell us of any player that you have pushed in the past who turned out to be a spud?

BTW IMO any recruiter that bypasses anyone by the name of Rioli or Motlop had better have a damn good reason.

[darkhorse72 1,925]

But we all love being armchair experts lol...great post.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

I get it.

"Nobody gets things right" except you about Scully...and you went off his D/E stats in the carnival yet you mock those who form their opinion from videos.

There are a few people who follow the TAC and I have done so myself at various times, not so much this year. And there are some posters here who are fairly learned when it comes to the potential draftees.

Your point is however valid, though you make it with arrogance and a fair degree of hypocrisy.

[s-t-i-n-g-a 439]

You can also script a post every year just like the one you have just made...

[Harrisonrules 273]

I get it.

"Nobody gets things right" except you about Scully...and you went off his D/E stats in the carnival yet you mock those who form their opinion from videos.

There are a few people who follow the TAC and I have done so myself at various times, not so much this year. And there are some posters here who are fairly learned when it comes to the potential draftees.

Your point is however valid, though you make it with arrogance and a fair degree of hypocrisy.

I suggest you lighten up. The OP is right on. He acknowledges that if one actually follows the actual form then good on them, but the rest are modestly informed.

If you're well informed, congratulations, why get upset...lighten up

[Guest Mengele]

Wow, who lit the wick on your tampon..

However, I do agree with the sentiments of the original post. There is always a new thread stating how much they rate a player that has been delisted, or when an article is written up about how good a young player is.. You really need to filter through a lot of posts to get to some substance.

[Whispering_Jack 30,580]

This is all about what a club becomes after so many years of lack of success and so much failure.

I can recall as a youngster when we were the strongest club in the land, you weren't really concerned about who came in and who went out of the club. We were the champions. We won premiership after premiership and we had an aura of invincibility about us. Imagine a time when you would wake up on Saturday morning and you knew your team was going to win. There was the occasional loss and you took it hard but you knew that next week, you'd win and it would roll on and on and you thought it would be that way forever ...

We lost the aura of invincibility on Queens Birthday 1965 when St. Kilda broke our eight game winning streak from the beginning of the season. The club literally fell apart and from that day on, we were searching for new messiahs to lead us out of the football wilderness.

I can remember most of them. I recently came across an article written in the Age about a successful recruiting trip that Jim Cardwell made to Tasmania where he signed up a couple of that State's leading schoolboy footballers in July 1965. We had a wealth of new recruits in 1966, the best being Ross Dillon who could have been anything but broke down with a knee injury six games into his career. After a year out of the game the feeling was that he would never reach the heights predicted of him. Soon after, Cardwell announced he'd signed the best schoolboy footballer in the land - a midfielder from Broken Hill named George Lakes. I got to know him briefly when he came down but he never made it and was eventually cleared off to the Swans. Then there was Tassie Medallist Graham Molloy and later John Tilbrook, both of SA and many others along the journey. We got one genuine star in Robbie Flower and a handful of triers until Barassi came and developed the Under 19s with Slug Jordan and introduced the Irish experiment.

We were on the right track around 1987 when we recruited three interstaters in Warren Dean and Earl Spalding (WA) and Todd Viney (SA). Together with the young talent coming through like Jimmy and Garry we managed to return to finals football and even made it to the grand final in 1988.

But the search continued as the ups and downs came and we never got it perfect. Perhaps we might have if only we lost the Kreuzer Cup in 2007, a result which could have seen us get Cotchin that year and both Watts and Naitanui the following year (we would have been entitled to a first round priority pick in those circumstances). Amazing that we're being investigated while the AFL looks away at what Carlton did then but that's just an aside.

It is what it is and we've learned our lessons well. The Daniher and Bailey years are over and it's clear to me that we're no longer taking the recruiting short cuts. No one saviour is going to help us, not even young Jack and that's why I remain ambivalent about the whole pick 3 v pick 26 thing. In the end, it's going to be the total package of our overall recruiting efforts and how we train and develop our players when we get them that will determine the path that our team will travel along in the years to come.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

Amazing post WJ.

The 60's only exist in books for me, but your passion and devotion really shine through.

Tomorrow will unveil all....hope the servers cope well.

[timD 994]

Skills, the problem with your argument is that Scully fails despite his poor kicking efficiency. He fails because he is soft (the anti-JV if you will). So, arguing that he might not be much chop based on a stat that is irrelevant to his flaw is following the same glorious path as Range Rover and Rono - getting the answer right despite the lack of logic. Fab.

Forums are places where armchairs experts get to compare internet-persona endowment. Once you figure out who is worth reading, it just bothers you a lot less.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

The OP is right on.

If you agree that with the OP "nobody" has anything worthwhile to say about the draft why then are you here?

Edited October 6, 2012 by dandeeman

[Daz's Dee's 113]

This is all about what a club becomes after so many years of lack of success and so much failure.

I can recall as a youngster when we were the strongest club in the land, you weren't really concerned about who came in and who went out of the club. We were the champions. We won premiership after premiership and we had an aura of invincibility about us. Imagine a time when you would wake up on Saturday morning and you knew your team was going to win. There was the occasional loss and you took it hard but you knew that next week, you'd win and it would roll on and on and you thought it would be that way forever ...

We lost the aura of invincibility on Queens Birthday 1965 when St. Kilda broke our eight game winning streak from the beginning of the season. The club literally fell apart and from that day on, we were searching for new messiahs to lead us out of the football wilderness.

I can remember most of them. I recently came across an article written in the Age about a successful recruiting trip that Jim Cardwell made to Tasmania where he signed up a couple of that State's leading schoolboy footballers in July 1965. We had a wealth of new recruits in 1966, the best being Ross Dillon who could have been anything but broke down with a knee injury six games into his career. After a year out of the game the feeling was that he would never reach the heights predicted of him. Soon after, Cardwell announced he'd signed the best schoolboy footballer in the land - a midfielder from Broken Hill named George Lakes. I got to know him briefly when he came down but he never made it and was eventually cleared off to the Swans. Then there was Tassie Medallist Graham Molloy and later John Tilbrook, both of SA and many others along the journey. We got one genuine star in Robbie Flower and a handful of triers until Barassi came and developed the Under 19s with Slug Jordan and introduced the Irish experiment.

We were on the right track around 1987 when we recruited three interstaters in Warren Dean and Earl Spalding (WA) and Todd Viney (SA). Together with the young talent coming through like Jimmy and Garry we managed to return to finals football and even made it to the grand final in 1988.

But the search continued as the ups and downs came and we never got it perfect. Perhaps we might have if only we lost the Kreuzer Cup in 2007, a result which could have seen us get Cotchin that year and both Watts and Naitanui the following year (we would have been entitled to a first round priority pick in those circumstances). Amazing that we're being investigated while the AFL looks away at what Carlton did then but that's just an aside.

It is what it is and we've learned our lessons well. The Daniher and Bailey years are over and it's clear to me that we're no longer taking the recruiting short cuts. No one saviour is going to help us, not even young Jack and that's why I remain ambivalent about the whole pick 3 v pick 26 thing. In the end, it's going to be the total package of our overall recruiting efforts and how we train and develop our players when we get them that will determine the path that our team will travel along in the years to come.

WJ well written I enjoyed that very much I'm 33 so I missed out on the golden years followed by the fall from grace. I attended my first game in 1987 final against the swans this team IMO remains the best we have had in my lifetime. I while heartedly agree with viney situation what will be will be but what we do have control over is how we develop these players no matter what there draft number I really hope we have this under control.

[IRW 1,387]

I have been following his site and Demonology for about 8 years and every year at this time of the year, you can just about script every post word for word; only changing names.

I have nothing against people jumping up and down suggesting this is who we should trade for whomever or we have to draft this bloke etc in fact I admire supporters who try to help the club in making difficult decisions.

What I do have a problem with however is that nobody gets things right.

I haven't a great recollection of draftees names but the names Salopek and Polec immediately come to mind, very much wanted but not got.

If we had have taken them this site would be in meltdown now.

I never heard a bleat from anyone wanting Rioli, of the Cyril variety that is, but I dare say that if he was in this draft; Jack Viney's name would not have been mentioned and there would be threads saying Hogan who? and who is Toumpas and Whitfield etc.

Do posters read the papers and think he sounds good, lets get him, or do they follow the combine to make their decision, or do they look at videos (dangerous thing to do if you play golf) and like what they see from 2 minutes of a players whole career or do they actually go to games and look out for potential players.

The funny thing about all this is that on Demonology at the time of the Scully drafting, someone (no I won't mention your name Deers ) posted stats from the u18s carnival that showed Scully's Kicking efficiency at about 70%, so I posted that maybe he is not as good as he is cracked up to be. Well that went down like a lead balloon but in retrospect it wasn't too far off the mark. And I'm just a nobody that lives in Thailand and to be honest I don't have a clue but I have played a lot of footy do look at things objectively.

Can't see why people get so worked up about the trade/draft period. What is going to happen is going to happen and there is nothing you or I can do to change it.

Is there any one that contributes at this time prepared to tell us of any player that you have pushed in the past who turned out to be a spud?

BTW IMO any recruiter that bypasses anyone by the name of Rioli or Motlop had better have a damn good reason.

Fair enough Skills but I reckon a KE of 70% is Wattsesque while the reason folk are so over the top about the latest messiah Jack aka Viney is partly because of what we saw on TV when he had his jaw broken....he came straight back at Wojinski looking to get it on. The other Jack all 196 annd 89 of him just stood back and watched!!!

I think its reasonale to dream MFC could build a 'culture' around the likes of young Jack, while Watts types will sleep easily knowing they can display their skills in safety with those sorts of blokes in the side.

[rpfc 28,734]

This is a familiar rant.

As familiar as the armchair experts decrying the club overlooking the sure thing in [insert name here] and the importance placed in the messiah [insert name here] but the reason why we are here?

The reason we are here and have our opinions is because the draft is where you get the best talent and while it hasn't happened yet - the messiah, or messiahs, will arrive from the draft for the most part and they will drive us toward flag number 13.

[Guest bluey]

Dad was captain and heads the recruiting depot, he is small, relatively slow, got nothing to offer overhead, doubt if he could push forward or back, but will be a guaranteed Mitchell type, where is the other high ranked kids are all a risk, what do you do? Play it safe and go for the Mitchell type....I think, at least we will have a decent player, no chance of being a complete spud..., Winfield, Wines , Toupas, Hogan..Who can say what they will be like, with any authority.

[daisycutter 29,710]

Dad was captain and heads the recruiting depot, he is small, relatively slow, got nothing to offer overhead, doubt if he could push forward or back, but will be a guaranteed Mitchell type, where is the other high ranked kids are all a risk, what do you do? Play it safe and go for the Mitchell type....I think, at least we will have a decent player, no chance of being a complete spud..., Winfield, Wines , Toupas, Hogan..Who can say what they will be like, with any authority.

at least lawsy would proffer an opinion blueye. couldn't you find a good pic of jonesy?

[Rod Grinter Riot Squad 5,654]

Do posters read the papers and think he sounds good, lets get him, or do they follow the combine to make their decision, or do they look at videos (dangerous thing to do if you play golf) and like what they see from 2 minutes of a players whole career or do they actually go to games and look out for potential players.

The funny thing about all this is that on Demonology at the time of the Scully drafting, someone (no I won't mention your name Deers ) posted stats from the u18s carnival that showed Scully's Kicking efficiency at about 70%, so I posted that maybe he is not as good as he is cracked up to be. Well that went down like a lead balloon but in retrospect it wasn't too far off the mark. And I'm just a nobody that lives in Thailand and to be honest I don't have a clue but I have played a lot of footy do look at things objectively.

Nice rewriting of history there.

Before Scully was drafted, David Williamson, who does watch a lot of NAB football (| believe) was very critical, consistently so, of Scully's kicking and didn't consider him a top 2 pick due to this fundamental flaw.

You followed his lead.

[Dr. Mubutu 866]

So Skills, I assume you were over the moon when we picked up Shannon in 2005? What a player he turned out to be.

[Deeman 1,512]

Dad was captain and heads the recruiting depot, he is small, relatively slow, got nothing to offer overhead, doubt if he could push forward or back, but will be a guaranteed Mitchell type, where is the other high ranked kids are all a risk, what do you do? Play it safe and go for the Mitchell type....I think, at least we will have a decent player, no chance of being a complete spud..., Winfield, Wines , Toupas, Hogan..Who can say what they will be like, with any authority.

Reckon Winfield might be a bit of a smokey, myself.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I have been following his site and Demonology for about 8 years and every year at this time of the year, you can just about script every post word for word; only changing names.

I have nothing against people jumping up and down suggesting this is who we should trade for whomever or we have to draft this bloke etc in fact I admire supporters who try to help the club in making difficult decisions.

What I do have a problem with however is that nobody gets things right.

I haven't a great recollection of draftees names but the names Salopek and Polec immediately come to mind, very much wanted but not got.

If we had have taken them this site would be in meltdown now.

I never heard a bleat from anyone wanting Rioli, of the Cyril variety that is, but I dare say that if he was in this draft; Jack Viney's name would not have been mentioned and there would be threads saying Hogan who? and who is Toumpas and Whitfield etc.

Do posters read the papers and think he sounds good, lets get him, or do they follow the combine to make their decision, or do they look at videos (dangerous thing to do if you play golf) and like what they see from 2 minutes of a players whole career or do they actually go to games and look out for potential players.

The funny thing about all this is that on Demonology at the time of the Scully drafting, someone (no I won't mention your name Deers ) posted stats from the u18s carnival that showed Scully's Kicking efficiency at about 70%, so I posted that maybe he is not as good as he is cracked up to be. Well that went down like a lead balloon but in retrospect it wasn't too far off the mark. And I'm just a nobody that lives in Thailand and to be honest I don't have a clue but I have played a lot of footy do look at things objectively.

Can't see why people get so worked up about the trade/draft period. What is going to happen is going to happen and there is nothing you or I can do to change it.

Is there any one that contributes at this time prepared to tell us of any player that you have pushed in the past who turned out to be a spud?

BTW IMO any recruiter that bypasses anyone by the name of Rioli or Motlop had better have a damn good reason.

Oh, really, cyril you say... Handy with some match winning abilities, but just how much has he improved since 2008. Not much.

You want a cyril,,,,, I want a Kennedy.

Do you want a Buddy, I'd like a Stringer.

But for us we need Mids, but right now a rare tall is also available, & I mean Grundy.

So I'd probably back off from all we've said to this point, and go back to best available Draftee at our first 3 picks, P3/ P4/ P13...

[skills32 229]

Nice rewriting of history there.

Before Scully was drafted, David Williamson, who does watch a lot of NAB football (| believe) was very critical, consistently so, of Scully's kicking and didn't consider him a top 2 pick due to this fundamental flaw.

You followed his lead.

In actual fact Rod my bit about Scully on ology was a 'tongue in cheek' answer to every one who was on the Scully bandwagon. It was included in my post as an

example of what I was talking about. I am not going down the track of who said it first, it doesn't really matter and funnily that thread mysteriously disappeared forever.

You must remember that the only footy I ever see is on TV through the Aust Network and a lot of the time they don't show the Dees game.

I know absolutely nothing about nothing about the quality of any player apart from newspapers, the club site and the supporter sites; just watching a few games here and there on TV doesn't really let one have an unbiased opinion of a players worth. It's the same with player's highlight videos.

Even if I do see Melbourne game on the box I don't give b&f votes on here or ology because I don't see the game as a whole and therefore don't consider myself qualified to do so.

The point I was trying to make in the original post was that this site is where I now get most of my info on the club from; and to have to wade through thread after thread, page after page and post after post to to glean the note worthy items is becoming tedious.

BUT I still barrack for the DEES.

[skills32 229]

Oh, really, cyril you say... Handy with some match winning abilities, but just how much has he improved since 2008. Not much.

You want a cyril,,,,, I want a Kennedy.

Do you want a buddy, I'd like a Stringer.

But for us we need Mids, but right now a rare tall is also available, & I mean Grundy.

So I'd probably back off from all we've said to this point, and go back to best available Draftee at our first 3 picks, P3/ P4/ P13...

What I mean is that picking up a Rioli or a Motlop gives you a greater chance of getting an handy player than previous methods and the reason I say that is because they are names that are among the best each week.

It seems to me that the first 20 picks should all be capable of being regularly mentioned in the weekly best players but it doesn't work out like that.

Kennedy is a good name too.

[skills32 229]

So Skills, I assume you were over the moon when we picked up Shannon in 2005? What a player he turned out to be.

He wasn't traded or drafted, but taken after the trade/draft period was finished as a replacement for Broadbridge

Remember he was taken from the delisted/retired pool so I wasn't expecting that much.

[skills32 229]

I get it.

"Nobody gets things right" except you about Scully...and you went off his D/E stats in the carnival yet you mock those who form their opinion from videos.

There are a few people who follow the TAC and I have done so myself at various times, not so much this year. And there are some posters here who are fairly learned when it comes to the potential draftees.

Your point is however valid, though you make it with arrogance and a fair degree of hypocrisy.

See my response to Rod Grinter ( post no 20) and that may give you a better idea of where I am coming from.

Arrogance and hypocrisy were not intended and apologies seeming like that.

I agree that there are a some very learned posters her and that is my reason for being a member.

Information from those people is invaluable not only to me but many others who are expats.

[Maldonboy38 6,405]

Then Swans and Geelong have both proven that although recruiting is important, it is actually player development that is the key. I agree with the original post here about not pinning too much on pick 3 or pick 26. We do need some elite players - both midfielders and marking forwards - but I reckon who we recruit is a secondary issue.

If we had recruited Jack Darling or Buddy or Hodge or whoever, would we have developed them well? My answer is probably not. Bailey proved hecould not really develop players well, especially not within 3 years. Watts, Tapascott, Garland, Bail, Jetta, Morton, Bate - none of these have improved at the same rate I reckon they would have at most other clubs.

Now is a big test for Neeld and his coaching team - can they develop the players we end up with? After this draft our list will probably be 85 - 90% what he wants it to be so he needs to show his coaching and development abilities.

We all have our opinions about drafts, trades and the like and we will agree to disagree, but can our coaching staff form a finals team out of the 40 or so players we end up with in late November? That is my question re 2013.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

See my response to Rod Grinter ( post no 20) and that may give you a better idea of where I am coming from.

Arrogance and hypocrisy were not intended and apologies seeming like that.

I agree that there are a some very learned posters her and that is my reason for being a member.

Information from those people is invaluable not only to me but many others who are expats.

I got the gist of what you were saying, but you paint yourself into a corner when you make extreme statements such as "nobody gets it right" and by your own admission there is some value amongst the posts, you need to look hard for it.

For a get one wrong, I can vaguely remember suggesting that Serhat Temel was worth a rookie pick, after I had seen him a couple of times.

As far as draftees go I haven't had a lot to say on any I haven't seen. I was surprised that Tom Rockliff wasn't drafted until the rookie draft and very surprised that Josh Walker got through to Geelong as a rookie. I also rated Harley Bennell very highly and really liked Matthew Watson.