On 18/03/2014 at 05:56, nutbean said:

No it isn't

I think most here recognise that Toumpas is not and won't be the same sort of contested ball beast that Wines is.

The comparison is being made because most thought that before Toumpas slipped to pick 4 , that we would pick Wines. So the comparison is natural thing to do.

Two obvious points - Wines had a seriously good debut season. Toumpas was ordinary at best (you can give whatever reason/s you like - I actually don't hve high expectations of first year players). Secondly I don't think we are comparing their abilities to win contested balls - we are looking at how Toumpas ( compared to Wines) went at contests and he needs to improve this area of his game.

Isn't how they went at contests exactly the same as how they win the contested ball? haha

the biggest knock on Toumpas from demonland is that he is soft, in his first season, to expect every bloke to come in and impact games is just silly,

Ollie may well have been just as ordinary as a Dees because he would have had no support around him, unlike at Port in what looks a top 4 midfield.

  On 18/03/2014 at 06:00, nutbean said:

The reality is that Toumpas has played one season. You want to call it now after one season ?

Yes I do he has not impressed and will wither like many bad picks preceeding him Not right at this level!

  On 18/03/2014 at 06:06, jackaub said:

Yes I do he has not impressed and will wither like many bad picks preceeding him Not right at this level!

He has been on the list for one year... seriously.. get a grip bud

  On 18/03/2014 at 06:03, Sassy said:

Isn't how they went at contests exactly the same as how they win the contested ball? haha

the biggest knock on Toumpas from demonland is that he is soft, in his first season, to expect every bloke to come in and impact games is just silly,

Ollie may well have been just as ordinary as a Dees because he would have had no support around him, unlike at Port in what looks a top 4 midfield.

Perhaps I could have phrased it better. I don't have the expectation that Toumpas will crash and bang like Wines but he has been somewhat shy of the physical.

But by the same token - I 100% agree with you on the expectation of a first year player - especially ones that have had hip surgery over the preseason so limited training and with a slight body. I don't have expectations of Salem or JHK this year.

  On 18/03/2014 at 06:06, jackaub said:

Yes I do he has not impressed and will wither like many bad picks preceeding him Not right at this level!

soooo...by extension ..you don't agree with Paul Roos when he says that you have very little expectation on a first year player and you take them along slowly - some will put their hands up and develop earlier than others ? You don't agree with that ? One season - shown little - consigned to the dud pick classification ?

(I'd be telling GWS to get rid of O'Rourke and Plowman - taken 2 and 3 in the same draft for having substandard years as well)

  On 18/03/2014 at 06:09, nutbean said:

Perhaps I could have phrased it better. I don't have the expectation that Toumpas will crash and bang like Wines but he has been somewhat shy of the physical.

But by the same token - I 100% agree with you on the expectation of a first year player - especially ones that have had hip surgery over the preseason so limited training and with a slight body. I don't have expectations of Salem or JHK this year.

I think that's probably pretty natural for a skinny lad playing against seasoned AFL players with no real support, I reckon he will come good in that sense as he gets confidence, the big thing for me is that he wasn't shy about it in junior footy or even in the SANFL, so it's not an overall being soft issue, it's just at AFL level for now.

The day we stop expecting first year players to come in and over take games can not come quick enough!, they're effectively first year players learning their trade! There is one in every draft. I voted for Wines as previously mentioned i like tough and under players who don't hesitate. We picked Jimmy not Ollie. Lets get over it hey......

  On 18/03/2014 at 02:42, Rod Grinter Riot Squad said:

I wouldn't be so quick as labelling Toumpas soft 'H'.

He hasnt shown as much as we all want at AFL level yet and I can understand the doubts but I believe he just needs some time and confidence.

I've a lot more patience with him after watchinghim get smashed a few times in a half at Casey last year, get up clearly hurt and go again. The one that stands out was right in front of me, Toumpasd was the victim os a second hospital pass in half an hour and he was obviously going to get belted, he stood his ground knowing that he was going to get smashed. He did, I flinched watching it. He got up, struggling and willed himself to the next contest.

Yes, he isn't Wines, but I think he will show us more than many expect from his first year.

To that i'd add the Geelong NAB game. He was clipped hard and late going for a mark. A soft player might have avoided risks for the rest of the game, particularly given it was basically a practice match. However the Toump kept going after the ball and later in the game he showed real courage going back with the ball attempting to mark.

Let's not make the mistake of labeling a player soft as Hannibal has so blithely done (which is quite remarkable given his 'haven't you guys got Foxtel' call - i mean Hannibal claim he wasn't soft as juniour but suddenly has become one as a senior player?). He's not soft and he's not out of his depth at AFL level. He will prove that this year (indeed has begun proving it already)

It shows no football nous to say we made a mistake picking the Toump not Wines. Way too easy a call, based it would seem on an amazing start to his career (good on him for this) and a slow start for the Toump.

  On 18/03/2014 at 06:12, Sassy said:

I think that's probably pretty natural for a skinny lad playing against seasoned AFL players with no real support, I reckon he will come good in that sense as he gets confidence, the big thing for me is that he wasn't shy about it in junior footy or even in the SANFL, so it's not an overall being soft issue, it's just at AFL level for now.

I can confidently say that I have no idea whether he will come good or not. I have been badly burned by so many " yeah...he''ll come good" that I now wait with anticipation and very guarded optimism.

  On 18/03/2014 at 06:19, nutbean said:

I can confidently say that I have no idea whether he will come good or not. I have been badly burned by so many " yeah...he''ll come good" that I now wait with anticipation and very guarded optimism.

I am with you 100% nutbean

  On 18/03/2014 at 06:19, binman said:

To that i'd add the Geelong NAB game. He was clipped hard and late going for a mark. A soft player might have avoided risks for the rest of the game, particularly given it was basically a practice match. However the Toump kept going after the ball and later in the game he showed real courage going back with the ball attempting to mark.

Let's not make the mistake of labeling a player soft as Hannibal has so blithely done (which is quite remarkable given his 'haven't you guys got Foxtel' call - i mean Hannibal claim he wasn't soft as juniour but suddenly has become one as a senior player?). He's not soft and he's not out of his depth at AFL level. He will prove that this year (indeed has begun proving it already)

It shows no football nous to say we made a mistake picking the Toump not Wines. Way too easy a call, based it would seem on an amazing start to his career (good on him for this) and a slow start for the Toump.

He has been out of his depth to date, let's hope it's not a permanent thing.

It's not the soft/courage thing it's physicality, attack on the ball and having a presence around the packs. At the moment (yes he is still only a kid) he gets put out of the contest too easily.

  On 18/03/2014 at 06:50, rjay said:

He has been out of his depth to date, let's hope it's not a permanent thing.

It's not the soft/courage thing it's physicality, attack on the ball and having a presence around the packs. At the moment (yes he is still only a kid) he gets put out of the contest too easily.

Being put of the contest too easily does not mean he is out of his depth. I really dislike such statements (out of his depth etc) as they are made by some (not you) as statements of fact. Did he star last year? No. Did he have injuries and an interrupted preseason. Yes. Did he play under a coach who has universally panned? Yes (as opposed to wines who has a coach who has been lauded for his capacity to develop young players and get them to play for him). The game he played down at the cattery last year showed he is not out of his depth at afl level.

how bout someone in the mould of Robbie Flower?

  On 18/03/2014 at 06:18, BrisbaneDemon said:

The day we stop expecting first year players to come in and over take games can not come quick enough!, they're effectively first year players learning their trade! There is one in every draft. I voted for Wines as previously mentioned i like tough and under players who don't hesitate. We picked Jimmy not Ollie. Lets get over it hey......

Wines is one out of the box. A beast who had an AFL ready body at the time of the draft. I appreciate all of that.

Why the fuggen hell we didn't secure him when we had the chance I will never know but like you will endeavour to get over it. We had an absolute and clear need for a young tough contested ball winner to bolster our midfield.

He and Viney were never going to be surplus to requirements. Posters who believe that argument holds any weight are delusional.

Toumpas lacks confidence

it [censored] me off every time hes within range to have a shot at at goal but he never has the balls to do it

Always tries some stupid kick to a teammate that never comes off and is always the lower % option

At the rate this thread is going it will be bigger than the No T$ No B$ thread, because Wines will have many many more excellent games to come.

Yes I too find it frustrating we had this kid knocking on our door, certainly his TAC Cup performances and his near Larke medal finish suggested things to come.

I also highly doubt Wines regressing (injuries aside), I can only see improvement and increased consistency with years to come.

Do I think Toumpas will be better in the long run... no, simply because Wines already posses and shows the traits of becoming "a star", but I can accept that. If you think the opposite you are blind and bias.

In saying that I can still see improvement coming from Toumpas and it's far too early to write him off after one season.

The point is we selected Toumpas (many of our personal mock drafts had him ahead of Wines at the time - mine included), and we as fans must stick by that and support him. Wines himself appears as loyal as an old dog and I doubt we will ever see him don the red and blue. Let's just hope Toumpas can kick his first premiership season goal and give us some glimpses of things to come that support the reasons why the club selected him at 4.

  On 18/03/2014 at 07:04, binman said:

Being put of the contest too easily does not mean he is out of his depth. I really dislike such statements (out of his depth etc) as they are made by some (not you) as statements of fact. Did he star last year? No. Did he have injuries and an interrupted preseason. Yes. Did he play under a coach who has universally panned? Yes (as opposed to wines who has a coach who has been lauded for his capacity to develop young players and get them to play for him). The game he played down at the cattery last year showed he is not out of his depth at afl level.

A bit hard to count that game, as the Cat's did with Gysberts early in his career they let him run and get the ball as he was doing no damage. Out of his depth for me means he wasn't really ready for AFL football, I don't think he was and it was unfair of us to expect more from him and as Roos indicates a first year player shouldn't be seen as the saviour.

When he is a high draft pick and we pass up someone like Wines it does put the pressure on, I was really positive about Jimmy when we picked him up but so far he hasn't delivered. That's not saying he won't or as 'nutbean' says it also doesn't mean he will. We just don't know. Unless he can deal with the physical side of the game then he needs more time at Casey until he is ready to come up.

  On 18/03/2014 at 07:58, rjay said:

A bit hard to count that game, as the Cat's did with Gysberts early in his career they let him run and get the ball as he was doing no damage. Out of his depth for me means he wasn't really ready for AFL football, I don't think he was and it was unfair of us to expect more from him and as Roos indicates a first year player shouldn't be seen as the saviour.

When he is a high draft pick and we pass up someone like Wines it does put the pressure on, I was really positive about Jimmy when we picked him up but so far he hasn't delivered. That's not saying he won't or as 'nutbean' says it also doesn't mean he will. We just don't know. Unless he can deal with the physical side of the game then he needs more time at Casey until he is ready to come up.

I would say that Salem is closer to being AFL ready than Toumpas was last year, but we are in better shape now, we simply had no one else.

  On 18/03/2014 at 06:00, nutbean said:

The reality is that Toumpas has played one season. You want to call it now after one season ?

Yep I'll call it.

We made the wrong call! Given our needs then and now!

  On 18/03/2014 at 07:58, rjay said:

A bit hard to count that game, as the Cat's did with Gysberts early in his career they let him run and get the ball as he was doing no damage. Out of his depth for me means he wasn't really ready for AFL football, I don't think he was and it was unfair of us to expect more from him and as Roos indicates a first year player shouldn't be seen as the saviour.

When he is a high draft pick and we pass up someone like Wines it does put the pressure on, I was really positive about Jimmy when we picked him up but so far he hasn't delivered. That's not saying he won't or as 'nutbean' says it also doesn't mean he will. We just don't know. Unless he can deal with the physical side of the game then he needs more time at Casey until he is ready to come up.

Yep, good points well made. Hard to disagree. He's had a great preseason by all accounts. So it will be fascinating to see if roos picks him. Given his comments about not picking players before they're ready one assumes if he is picked roos thinks he's up to it

  On 18/03/2014 at 06:18, BrisbaneDemon said:

The day we stop expecting first year players to come in and over take games can not come quick enough!, they're effectively first year players learning their trade! There is one in every draft. I voted for Wines as previously mentioned i like tough and under players who don't hesitate. We picked Jimmy not Ollie. Lets get over it hey......

Totally agree! Ollie Wines plays for Pt. Adelaide let's move on please!!

http://footytraderumours.com/devils-advocate-drafting-carlton-blues/

Jimmy Toumpas is a potential brownlow medalist

  On 18/03/2014 at 09:15, FairBump PlayOn said:

Totally agree! Ollie Wines plays for Pt. Adelaide let's move on please!!

Totally agree! Mods wind this one up please. It has had enough airing.

I think some of the discussion on this thread is hard on the Toump. I keep hearing how he played 2 seasons of SANFL footy. He actually played 5 games at the end of 2011 (including the Eagles Premiership where he starred) and then played the first 5 games of 2012 Season before beginning the National u18 Champs ( where he was made Captain in a side including Luke Dunstan, Scharenberg, Mayes, Aish etc). This makes a grand total of 10 Senior SANFL games guys. He then proceeded to play in 4 of the 5 Champs games where he also made All Aust. The only game he missed was their only loss to Vic Metro and the 3/4 of a game against NT where he injured the hips in the first 5 mins of the game. I have followed his short career closely and feel he is harshly treated here. He played a grand total 5 SANFL and 3 State games in 2012, followed by double hip surgery where it has proven to be a 12 month recovery period to getting back to levels of fitness you have prior. This year will be a break out year for the Toump. Mark my words. Those questioning his courage have no idea. The comments someone made about being pushed off the ball too easily are very true. I think even he would admit that as he did in his end of season review interview on our site. His confidence would have taken a massive hit last year playing when he was clearly not ready. Look at the way he ended the season to see the Toump's potential. He will be a classy player for us. He will start to take the shots on goal mentioned by one poster as that confidence grows. You only need to see what he did for his SANFL club. As a reminder of what Toump can, and will, do for us, watch these highlights. www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr4jzuL-IJM