On 17/08/2012 at 15:06, KingDingAling said:

Because his son gives him inside knowledge and would know nearly every kid in the draft.

Jacks played for SA and Vic.

He is also a Caulfield Grammar lad, so he has seen first hand all the best talent.

He's trained with, grown up with and played against all the best talent in the upcoming draft.

Todd Viney has the luxury of being able to defer to his son and bounce off him in regards to his opinions on players.

Its very underestimated.

I can tell with great accuracy who are my strongest opponents when I clash with them, Jack would know who his competitors are.

He goes to Carey.

I agree that Jack's insights into other players should be invaluable. And Todd has coached and played a tonne of footy, so I don't know why he wouldn't be able to identify talent.

I can't fathom why so many posters complain about our inability to develop players

After all didn't we take an undersized schoolboy from a melbourne fringe suburb and turn him into a multi-millionaire in only 2 years?

I'd say we've had a pretty good development record

  On 17/08/2012 at 07:57, RobbieF said:

We are where we because we have a poor playing list and the fact that we are going to delist up to ten players at year's end confirms this. We have recruited poorly and we've compounded this problem by holding on to these poor quality recruits hoping like hell they'll come good.

Bate and Dunn should have gone 3 years ago and if the club is serious they should cut their losses and get rid of Cook, Bennell, Joel Mac, Petterd and Morton as a start, they couldn't do worse with first year recruits.

Wait.

Isn't that how we got in this mess in the first place?

Shedding too many experienced mature-bodied players at once and replacing them with kids, who we then threw to the wolves?

Sure, we must separate the wheat from the chaff and transform the list, but it is a slow deliberate process done in stages over years.

Wholesale changes are not an immediate answer.

  On 17/08/2012 at 15:06, KingDingAling said:

Because his son gives him inside knowledge and would know nearly every kid in the draft.

Jacks played for SA and Vic.

He is also a Caulfield Grammar lad, so he has seen first hand all the best talent.

He's trained with, grown up with and played against all the best talent in the upcoming draft.

Todd Viney has the luxury of being able to defer to his son and bounce off him in regards to his opinions on players.

Its very underestimated.

I can tell with great accuracy who are my strongest opponents when I clash with them, Jack would know who his competitors are.

I think Jack Viney's insight is valuable, but I'm not really as interested in his opinion of who is toughest to play against now.

I'm more concerned with who will be the best in 3 years' time and beyond.

And I don't think Jack is the best person to judge that.

  On 18/08/2012 at 02:01, José Mourinho said:

I think Jack Viney's insight is valuable, but I'm not really as interested in his opinion of who is toughest to play against now.

I'm more concerned with who will be the best in 3 years' time and beyond.

And I don't think Jack is the best person to judge that.

I don't think that is being suggested. Rather, that he can provide some additional information.

  On 18/08/2012 at 01:57, José Mourinho said:

Wait.

Isn't that how we got in this mess in the first place?

Shedding too many experienced mature-bodied players at once and replacing them with kids, who we then threw to the wolves?

Sure, we must separate the wheat from the chaff and transform the list, but it is a slow deliberate process done in stages over years.

Wholesale changes are not an immediate answer.

No point in keeping experienced players that are no good.

Trade while they have some currency.

  On 18/08/2012 at 02:09, Theo said:

No point in keeping experienced players that are no good.

Trade while they have some currency.

Are you sure about that?

I used to think that pre-186, but since have reconsidered my position.

Sometimes it's good to have some bog-standard sacrificial footsoldiers to spare the young talent until they can handle the heat.

The important thing is retaining those that reinforce good habits and a good culture, in spite of their lack of talent.

Change has to be gradual, provided the players in question aren't cancerous to the culture.

  On 16/08/2012 at 01:10, pantaloons said:

"Dowler, Oakley-Nichols, Drum - they've taken all the good ones. I guess we're stuck with Nathan Jones."

There is always plenty of debate over whether drafting or development has been poorly this site. I think we can almost all agree that both have been subpar at best this millennium. I just hope that with new people in place we an get both right. I have no doubt that the roadmelbourne took the last 5 years was the right one, we just picked poorly and didn't get the best out of what we did get.

They're allowed to get 2 or maybe 3 right out of all they're picks in what,,, 7, 8 years of drafting & development. Jones, Frawley, Jamar.

But people want to hang draw & quarter Bailey for coming to the club after we chose him with a plan we had to rebuild the list.

He followed our instructions & we went to plan quickly repopulating the list with young players.

He did his part well.

And when he was told it was his time to go, he went, after a great deal of damage to his career as a coach.

So I've put Up these pictures to remind people of who recruited our old list & who developed them into a soft bunch of non chasing non tackling marauders who were didn't like it tough.

  On 18/08/2012 at 02:15, dee-luded said:

They're allowed to get 2 or maybe 3 right out of all they're picks in what,,, 7, 8 years of drafting & development. Jones, Frawley, Jamar.

But people want to hang draw & quarter Bailey for coming to the club after we chose him with a plan we had to rebuild the list.

He followed our instructions & we went to plan quickly repopulating the list with young players.

He did his part well.

And when he was told it was his time to go, he went, after a great deal of damage to his career as a coach.

So I've put Up these pictures to remind people of who recruited our old list & who developed them into a soft bunch of non chasing non tackling marauders who were didn't like it tough.

Is that how it works?

The coach comes in and then just does what he is told by the CEO and the board?

Surely he has some input into what is done and how.

I can't absolve Bailey of all responsibility.

What he did, he did to himself.

If he wasn't happy to be in that position, he should have walked away citing irreconcilable differences in terms of direction he wanted to head in.

The fact is, after an horrendous coaching record, it is very easy to say "I was just doing as I was told - I'm really a much better coach, but they just wouldn't let me!"

Whats going on - im agreeing with Jose!

  On 18/08/2012 at 02:09, Theo said:

No point in keeping experienced players that are no good.

Trade while they have some currency.

You're assuming they have currency.

I think going to the trade table and saying 'I've got a Dunn, a Bate and a Morton' is akin to going to the table and saying 'I've got a pile of horsesh*t, a sack of coal, and a twig'.

  On 18/08/2012 at 02:15, dee-luded said:

They're allowed to get 2 or maybe 3 right out of all they're picks in what,,, 7, 8 years of drafting & development. Jones, Frawley, Jamar.

But people want to hang draw & quarter Bailey for coming to the club after we chose him with a plan we had to rebuild the list.

He followed our instructions & we went to plan quickly repopulating the list with young players.

He did his part well.

And when he was told it was his time to go, he went, after a great deal of damage to his career as a coach.

So I've put Up these pictures to remind people of who recruited our old list & who developed them into a soft bunch of non chasing non tackling marauders who were didn't like it tough.

This is such utter rubbish.

According to you, the coach does nothing. The recruiters draft exceedingly talented players and then cop the responsibility for ensuring they take us to a flag, whilst the coach is just a puppet of the board.

Wow.

With the track record of Melbourne rejects in the last ten years Id suggest that many of our experienced players may not have much currency.

  On 18/08/2012 at 02:15, dee-luded said:

They're allowed to get 2 or maybe 3 right out of all they're picks in what,,, 7, 8 years of drafting & development. Jones, Frawley, Jamar.

But people want to hang draw & quarter Bailey for coming to the club after we chose him with a plan we had to rebuild the list.

He followed our instructions & we went to plan quickly repopulating the list with young players.

He did his part well.

And when he was told it was his time to go, he went, after a great deal of damage to his career as a coach.

So I've put Up these pictures to remind people of who recruited our old list & who developed them into a soft bunch of non chasing non tackling marauders who were didn't like it tough.

And left the club a shadow of what it was under Daniher in terms of culture and sports/training-based professionalism according to Micky Maltshake

Whilst people cry over taking Cook at 12 how many players taken after Cook would you take ahead of Howe?

1 13 Seb Tape Glenelg SANFL Gold Coast 1 14 Brodie Smith Woodville-West Torrens SANFL Adelaide 1 15 Billie Smedts Geelong Falcons TAC Cup Geelong 1 16 Ben Jacobs Sandringham Dragons TAC Cup Port Adelaide 1 17 Shaun Atley Murray Bushrangers TAC Cup North Melbourne 1 18 Matthew Watson Calder Cannons TAC Cup Carlton 1 19 Isaac Smith North Ballarat VFL Hawthorn 1 20 Jayden Pitt Geelong Falcons TAC Cup Fremantle 1 21 Jed Lamb Gippsland Power TAC Cup Sydney 1 22 Mitch Wallis (F/S) Calder Cannons TAC Cup Western Bulldogs 1 23 Cameron Guthrie Calder Cannons TAC Cup Geelong 1 24 Jamie Cripps East Fremantle WAFL St Kilda 1 25 Patrick Karnezis Oakleigh Chargers TAC Cup Brisbane Lions Priority 26 Jack Darling West Perth WAFL West Coast Compensation 27 Kieran Harper Eastern Ranges TAC Cup North Melbourne 2 28 Ryan Lester Oakleigh Chargers TAC Cup Brisbane Lions 2 29 Scott Lycett Port Magpies SANFL West Coast 2 30 Jake Batchelor Dandenong Stingrays TAC Cup Richmond 2 31 Ariel Steinberg Bendigo Pioneers TAC Cup Essendon 2 32 Josh Green Clarence TFL Brisbane Lions

Does anyone truly think after today we have a good list!

  On 18/08/2012 at 07:51, old dee said:

Does anyone truly think after today we have a good list!

Today didnt actually change my impressions. amazing huh

  On 18/08/2012 at 07:51, old dee said:

Does anyone truly think after today we have a good list!

Apparently you only want to get rid of 5 of them at year end. Amazing.

  On 18/08/2012 at 01:57, José Mourinho said:

Wait.

Isn't that how we got in this mess in the first place?

Shedding too many experienced mature-bodied players at once and replacing them with kids, who we then threw to the wolves?

Sure, we must separate the wheat from the chaff and transform the list, but it is a slow deliberate process done in stages over years.

Wholesale changes are not an immediate answer.

In case it slipped your notice this is how we got in to this mess in the first place; Daniher hung on to players for too long, didn't get rid of players when they were clearly not up to it, and only played a small core of his preferred players.

We allowed players with dubious ability to stay on the list for years and we still do, you know who they are and if we had delisted just a couple more each year and turned over the list a bit more we wouldn't be in the situation we now are. How in God's name did we allow Godfrey to get to 100 games; I liked Ward but the same with him.

There are some players on the list that have been there for 5 to 6 years and we're still not sure if they can play or not. Some times you have to take drastic action or you just wallow in the bottom of the barrel forever.

There is a hard core of players at the club who are getting more experience and these players will be able to take the younger players with them and if we can get a few senior recruits it will round off the list a bit more.

  On 18/08/2012 at 02:14, José Mourinho said:

Are you sure about that?

I used to think that pre-186, but since have reconsidered my position.

Sometimes it's good to have some bog-standard sacrificial footsoldiers to spare the young talent until they can handle the heat.

The important thing is retaining those that reinforce good habits and a good culture, in spite of their lack of talent.

Change has to be gradual, provided the players in question aren't cancerous to the culture.

Of course when those same bog standard sacrificial foot-soldiers take us to loss after loss, because they simply aren't good enough, the supporters will scream and howl and demand the coach's head and that the board resign.

That's where we've been for the last 5 or so years now.

MFC 2000 Pick 16 Scott Thompson (went home to S.A) ... was a class act and ashame he went home.

MFC 2001 Pick 9 Luke Molan ... we went with the biggest & toughest under 18 footballers (injury cruelled him)

MFC 2002 Pick 14 & 15 Daniel Bell and Nicholas Smith

MFC 2003 Pick 3 Sylvia Pick 5 B McLean ... two very very good u18's performers tough and hard

MFC 2004 Pick 13 Matthew Bate Pick 15 Lynden Dunn (Pick 15 was from Crows for Thompson) ... I had Matt Rosa in my top 10, and Brent Prismall is top 20. Was amazed both were passed up by the dees.

MFC 2005 Pick 12 Nathan Jones ... was a great get.

MFC 2006 Pick 12 James Frawley ... it was betweem Jack Riewoldt and Frawley for this pick. All good. Petterd at 30 and Garland at 46 were ok, albeit I thought Colwas going to be a fwd.

MFC 2007 Pick 4 Cale Morton Pick 14 Jack Grimes 21 Addam Maric

Morton lacked work ethic in under age footy (nothing changed)- I had Brad Ebert or Rhys Palmer at pick 4, Grimes was a great catch (when he fell outside the top 10). Maric was lazy in under 18's and big mistake

MFC 2008 Pick 1 Jack Watts 17 Sam Blease 19 James Strauss ... we really wanted Ryan Scoenmakers. Got lucky with Blease who has rated 8-12 in this year. Strauss was rated 25-40. Not a great choice. Does the Dan Hannebery ring a bell. I had him at 12-15 so again thought we struggled.

MFC 2009 Pick 1 Scully Pick 2 Trengove Pick 11 Gysberts Pick 18 Tapscott

Ryan Bastinac at pick 11 was a lock-in. (?? Gysberts ... rated 20-25 region)

MFC 2010 Pick 12 Lucas Cook ... sorry I had Shaun Atley at pick 5-8. Still in shock that we missed him . Prendergast lost me here. Keiran Harper, Ben Jacobs, Jack Darling and Lewis Jetta were better by a mile than Cook. I had Cook at mid 20's at best.

MFC 2011 Pick 11 Traded for Mitch Clark. Good move. I had us looking at Devon Smith , Clay Smith or Taylor Adams.

Looking fwd...

2012 draft ...

3# Toumpas ... pace, smart, leadership

#4 Wines (skills, tough, Hayes like) or Mayes (elite skills)

#13 O'Rourke (attracts the footy, Beams like without tatts) ,Kennedy (think aleft footed boomer harvey but better) or Gartlett (Cyril Riloi like)

#25 Viney (tough, inside mid, loves MFC)

OR

2012 draft (if GWS/Suns nominate Viney) #3 Viney #4 Toumpas #13 O'Rourke, Kennedy or Gartlett #25 Pongracic (tough tough tough midfielder)

  On 18/08/2012 at 10:38, RobbieF said:

In case it slipped your notice this is how we got in to this mess in the first place; Daniher hung on to players for too long, didn't get rid of players when they were clearly not up to it, and only played a small core of his preferred players.

We allowed players with dubious ability to stay on the list for years and we still do, you know who they are and if we had delisted just a couple more each year and turned over the list a bit more we wouldn't be in the situation we now are. How in God's name did we allow Godfrey to get to 100 games; I liked Ward but the same with him.

There are some players on the list that have been there for 5 to 6 years and we're still not sure if they can play or not. Some times you have to take drastic action or you just wallow in the bottom of the barrel forever.

There is a hard core of players at the club who are getting more experience and these players will be able to take the younger players with them and if we can get a few senior recruits it will round off the list a bit more.

+ 1

Have been saying the same for years myself, Danners left us in a bad way and the small core he stuck with let him down often when the going got tough

  On 18/08/2012 at 11:07, jurrahcane said:

MFC 2000 Pick 16 Scott Thompson (went home to S.A) ... was a class act and ashame he went home.

MFC 2001 Pick 9 Luke Molan ... we went with the biggest & toughest under 18 footballers (injury cruelled him)

MFC 2002 Pick 14 & 15 Daniel Bell and Nicholas Smith

MFC 2003 Pick 3 Sylvia Pick 5 B McLean ... two very very good u18's performers tough and hard

MFC 2004 Pick 13 Matthew Bate Pick 15 Lynden Dunn (Pick 15 was from Crows for Thompson) ... I had Matt Rosa in my top 10, and Brent Prismall is top 20. Was amazed both were passed up by the dees.

MFC 2005 Pick 12 Nathan Jones ... was a great get.

MFC 2006 Pick 12 James Frawley ... it was betweem Jack Riewoldt and Frawley for this pick. All good. Petterd at 30 and Garland at 46 were ok, albeit I thought Colwas going to be a fwd.

MFC 2007 Pick 4 Cale Morton Pick 14 Jack Grimes 21 Addam Maric

Morton lacked work ethic in under age footy (nothing changed)- I had Brad Ebert or Rhys Palmer at pick 4, Grimes was a great catch (when he fell outside the top 10). Maric was lazy in under 18's and big mistake

MFC 2008 Pick 1 Jack Watts 17 Sam Blease 19 James Strauss ... we really wanted Ryan Scoenmakers. Got lucky with Blease who has rated 8-12 in this year. Strauss was rated 25-40. Not a great choice. Does the Dan Hannebery ring a bell. I had him at 12-15 so again thought we struggled.

MFC 2009 Pick 1 Scully Pick 2 Trengove Pick 11 Gysberts Pick 18 Tapscott

Ryan Bastinac at pick 11 was a lock-in. (?? Gysberts ... rated 20-25 region)

MFC 2010 Pick 12 Lucas Cook ... sorry I had Shaun Atley at pick 5-8. Still in shock that we missed him . Prendergast lost me here. Keiran Harper, Ben Jacobs, Jack Darling and Lewis Jetta were better by a mile than Cook. I had Cook at mid 20's at best.

MFC 2011 Pick 11 Traded for Mitch Clark. Good move. I had us looking at Devon Smith , Clay Smith or Taylor Adams.

Looking fwd...

2012 draft ...

3# Toumpas ... pace, smart, leadership

#4 Wines (skills, tough, Hayes like) or Mayes (elite skills)

#13 O'Rourke (attracts the footy, Beams like without tatts) ,Kennedy (think aleft footed boomer harvey but better) or Gartlett (Cyril Riloi like)

#25 Viney (tough, inside mid, loves MFC)

OR

2012 draft (if GWS/Suns nominate Viney) #3 Viney #4 Toumpas #13 O'Rourke, Kennedy or Gartlett #25 Pongracic (tough tough tough midfielder)

Who gives a fat rat's clacker what you would have picked?

Get over yourself.

  On 13/08/2012 at 13:26, Redleg said:

With that background, along I went to a draft function at the MFC, hosted by Chris Connolly a couple of years ago fairly confident in my mind that if still there at our pick 11 we would take Daniel Talia. During the function Chris told us we would not select him but rather Gysberts if there at pick 11. To put it mildly I was pretty shocked, but hey I wasn't the expert, who was I to argue. Today Gys is being spoken of by some on here as being tradeable and not having the right fitness or attitude and Talia is verging on AA selection having beaten many of the best forwards in the AFL. The next year at our first selection we took Lucas Cook who is yet to play a game, while many on here screamed for us to take Darling who looks a great player and has about 50 games up already. Cook is another being spoken about on here as in danger of being delisted. These two selections are but a couple of so many we seem to have got horribly wrong. Yes Cook may still make it as may Gys, but even if they do they are a mile behind the other two. Yes I know drafting is littered with mistakes, but we seem to have made far more than all the other clubs.

Redleg I agree 100% - I also thought we would grab Talia at 11 and Darling at 12 and was flabbergasted watching the Foxtel coverage when we didn't pick either. At the time I was surprised but thought "well these guys are paid to pick the best kids so they clearly know what they're doing" however now it is evident that that is clearly not the case at all. It seems like they've tried to be too clever by half. They've outsmarted themselves by trying to pick some "left-field" kids to make themselves look like geniuses down the road by seeing what no-one else could but all they have done is made themselves look ridiculously stupid by taking players at least 20 spots ahead of where they belonged.

I also agree about going after the big bodied players rather than the kids with the skinny frames who may never come on - sure you can afford a couple (Watts, Blease) but not half a dozen or more (Cook, Morton, Strauss, Gysberts, Fitzpatrick, Bennell etc). Thankfully it seems like Neeld's team has a different recruitment philosophy it's just unfortunate Tynan and Taggert have battled injury most of the year.

  On 18/08/2012 at 23:16, Dr. Gonzo said:

Redleg I agree 100% - I also thought we would grab Talia at 11 and Darling at 12 and was flabbergasted watching the Foxtel coverage when we didn't pick either. At the time I was surprised but thought "well these guys are paid to pick the best kids so they clearly know what they're doing" however now it is evident that that is clearly not the case at all. It seems like they've tried to be too clever by half. They've outsmarted themselves by trying to pick some "left-field" kids to make themselves look like geniuses down the road by seeing what no-one else could but all they have done is made themselves look ridiculously stupid by taking players at least 20 spots ahead of where they belonged.

I started this thread back in April ... http://demonland.com/forums/index.php?/topic/29800-daniel-talia-another-recruiting-blunder/

Unbelievable what these chumps did with our recruiting. Prendergast and co have set this club back years with their "special" picks with huge "upside".

Talia is one of the favourites to win the Rising Star award this year and he should be wearing red and blue.

Not as bad as the Darling [censored] up, though. That will go down in recruiting blunder folklore.

  On 13/08/2012 at 21:54, belzebub59 said:

2003 gives it a nudge

That was just a crap draft all round though - have a look at the names on the draft board, be lucky to be 10 or 15 of them still on club lists/played more than 10 games.