The list - who goes at the end of the year?

[stuie 7,374]

Patent rubbish. In fact for his talent I reckon Cotchin has been a little slow in reaching the levels he has. Since when have Richmond been the bench mark in developing players ? How was Vickery looking in his 4th year before he got injured ?

Geez I'm glad you guys weren't in the first fleet cos you keep missing the Point...

Where did I say Richmond are the best at developing talent??! All I said was that in recent times we haven't had the coaching structures or development experts to bring along the players we drafted as well as most other clubs have.

[Johnny Karate 559]

Guarantee you Cotchin and Martin would not be anywhere near as good had they come through our system at the time.

While we're throwing wild speculation out there, I propose that Cale Morton would be top 20 in the league had he been anywhere but Melbourne. Watts would be winning the Coleman too!

[Hannibal 5,814]

Ben Hur you had me until the last nine words.

Has our recruiting been great ? Hmm. I say a resounding no

How can you say that and in the next sentance say " but there is a decent canvas to work with"

Either it has been good and there is a decent canvas to work with

Or it has been poor

Not sure you can have it both ways

I'm not trying to have it both ways. There's some middle ground.

Do you think it's possible for recruiters to leave a club completely bereft of talent ? Do you think it's possible they'll stuff up every pick ? Even the worst recruiters get some right. It's a matter of evaluating opportunity against performance.

CAC delivered Frawley, Grimes, Rivers and Garland, which has provided a sound defence. BP has added McDonald, who despite the odd mistake looks really promising. His courage, tank, height and marking will hold him in really good stead. He'll only improve. With the pace of Nicholson the back-line is relatively young and sound. Davis has potential.

Rucks are OK with Jamar, Martin and Gawn, but we're ready to get another.

Clark is a great get by Neeld, which gives the forward-line instant structure. How many clubs have a tall marking forward of Clark's ilk ? More is needed, but hopefully Howe (BP) and Jurrah (BP) can be staples up front. A Stevie J, McGlynn, or Breust type wouldn't go astray, but they're few and far between. A quality small is a must. Who knows where Watts will end up and Garland is worth a try over preseason.

The famous midfield at Melbourne is clearly an issue, but I'm a Trengove believer and Jones adds solidity. Viney plus 3 and 4 should really help. We have too many C grade mids.

Without counting them I reckon there's roughly a dozen players that can form a solid core of at least B grade, or better (canvas), but we need a couple of stars and a few more B+ to A grade mids to turn our fortunes around.

CAC got some good players and Prendergast also got a few, but when you look at the top 21 picks at their disposal you'd have to say it's been a poor result, particularly by Prendergast. McLean, Sylvia, Bate, Dunn, Jones, Frawley, Watts, Scully, Trengove, Morton, Grimes, Gysberts, Maric, Blease, Strauss, Tapscott and Cook as a group are a fail for mine. There's 17 top 21 picks in that grouping and I don't count one A grader. Frawley had an A grade year and I really rate him, but he needs to back it up, and Jones has really improved, but he's presently short of A grade. There is time for a number of them to make the sort of progress required, so I recognise that it's unfair to mark some of them so soon, even if there are starting to be queries.

We're desperate for a super star and despite plenty of top 20 draft picks we're still hoping and there's not one player that looks close. Clark looks the closest and we didn't draft him. With bookends in Frawley and Clark, the makings of a good defence, and excellent young leaders in Grimes and Trengove there's a bit to work with, but you'd have to say we've made plenty of mistakes on draft day. Maybe I'm painting too much blue sky and having a bit each way, but I've got to hold onto something.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Geez I'm glad you guys weren't in the first fleet cos you keep missing the Point...

Where did I say Richmond are the best at developing talent??! All I said was that in recent times we haven't had the coaching structures or development experts to bring along the players we drafted as well as most other clubs have.

That's not all you said at all. The rubbish you sprouted was, "Guarantee you Cotchin and Martin would not be anywhere near as good had they come through our system at the time."

I've already given examples how Addam Maric, Miller, Simon Buckley, McLean, Chris Johnson, Paul Johnson (delisted), and Cheney have left Melbourne for other clubs and they're all still [censored]. Richmond have done OK with Houli and Grigg, but what's the bet that Maric stays a hack ? It's not our development that has been the biggest problem it's been the recruiting.

Although I recognise that you have no capacity to change your view or appreciate sound reasoning.

[Johnny Karate 559]

Ben, be careful, you'll be accused of "missing the point" again. *snigger*

[stuie 7,374]

That's not all you said at all. The rubbish you sprouted was, "Guarantee you Cotchin and Martin would not be anywhere near as good had they come through our system at the time."

I've already given examples how Addam Maric, Miller, Simon Buckley, McLean, Chris Johnson, Paul Johnson (delisted), and Cheney have left Melbourne for other clubs and they're all still [censored]. Richmond have done OK with Houli and Grigg, but what's the bet that Maric stays a hack ? It's not our development that has been the biggest problem it's been the recruiting.

Although I recognise that you have no capacity to change your view or appreciate sound reasoning.

FFS... The point wast about MFC not Richmond... Try and twist things as much as you want but I know what I said even if you don't!

[Hannibal 5,814]

FFS... The point wast about MFC not Richmond... Try and twist things as much as you want but I know what I said even if you don't!

Are you thick ? That's a rhetorical question, btw.

When you said that Cotchin and Martin wouldn't be "anywhere as near as good" if they were at Melbourne you're lauding Richmond's development whilst denigrating Melbourne's. The two inferences go hand in hand.

And you've been given evidence that suggests that Melbourne's development isn't necessarily the major issue; more-so recruiting.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[stuie 7,374]

Are you thick ? That's a rhetorical question, btw.

When you said that Cotchin and Martin wouldn't be "anywhere as near as good" if they were at Melbourne you're lauding Richmond's development whilst denigrating Melbourne's. The two inferences go hand in hand.

And you've been given evidence that suggests that Melbourne's development isn't necessarily the major issue; more-so recruiting.

Seriously mate, getting tired of waiting for things to sink through your thick skull...

I did NOT "laud Richmond's development", I put down OUR development, the two things are NOT related, they are about totally different clubs.

And there's PLENTY of evidence our development is poor, none more so than the amount of top 20 picks we've taken (that were NOT surprises) that have not lived up to their potential.

I know you'll try and come back with some kind of point trying to change what I've said or join it to an unrelated point, but THAT is where it's at.

SOOOOOOOOOO sick of posters here who purposely misinterpret other people's posts to suit their own need for never admitting their wrong.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

Guarantee you Cotchin and Martin would not be anywhere near as good had they come through our system at the time.

Martin was giving his neonatal nurse the "don't argue" lol don't give us that shite. He was a monster from day dot, and I could have developed Cotchin in my backyard with a bunch of witche's hats and a football fashioned out of disgarded newspapers bundled in sticky tape- such was his talent.

And you "Guarantee" we would have botched their development? Give us a spell mate.

Nobody is misinterpreting your posts. You are deluded and a bit of a dummy spitter.

[rpfc 28,763]

Richmond are not going to develop better than us.

I look more at Danger Mouse and think that if he was at our club, would we have the wherewithall (in the past) to give him a solid core, put some mass on hips and thighs or would we turn him into Cam Bruce Mark II?

[old55 23,687]

It's not our development that has been the biggest problem it's been the recruiting.

Overall CAC is below par but our poor development, heavily influenced by poor facilities and poor staffing levels is a factor.

It would be interesting to see the results if Bate, Dunn, Morton or Petterd had been drafted by good clubs. I reckon some of them would be good regular players - there's actually still a chance that will happen, I expect some interest to be shown in them. If half of them had made it CAC would be in the positive.

I think BP is getting a premature rap. It might be right, but it also might be wrong. I have no problems with the Watts, Scully and Trengove selections. For a variety of reasons we haven't seen enough of Gysberts, Tapscott, Blease, Strauss and Cook to be definitive. He's made very good selections later in the draft with Howe and McDonald. Bennell, Jetta, Gawn, Fitzpatrick - you get a mixed bag at that level in the draft. In 12 months the outcome will be be clear - if Neeld dumps 2 or 3 of Gysberts, Tapscott, Blease, Strauss and Cook at the end of this year then it'll be sooner.

[Hannibal 5,814]

It would be interesting to see the results if Bate, Dunn, Morton or Petterd had been drafted by good clubs. I reckon some of them would be good regular players - there's actually still a chance that will happen, I expect some interest to be shown in them. If half of them had made it CAC would be in the positive.

I think BP is getting a premature rap. It might be right, but it also might be wrong. I have no problems with the Watts, Scully and Trengove selections. For a variety of reasons we haven't seen enough of Gysberts, Tapscott, Blease, Strauss and Cook to be definitive. He's made very good selections later in the draft with Howe and McDonald. Bennell, Jetta, Gawn, Fitzpatrick - you get a mixed bag at that level in the draft. In 12 months the outcome will be be clear - if Neeld dumps 2 or 3 of Gysberts, Tapscott, Blease, Strauss and Cook at the end of this year then it'll be sooner.

Unfortunately the only top 20 selection CAC made that turned into an A grader is a player you reckon can't kick and is no longer with us.

Richmond got A graders in Cotchin and Deledio. Riewoldt is close, but I put him in the Frawley category in that he presently hasn't backed up.

Collingwood drafted A graders in Thomas, Pendlebury and arguably Beams and Sidebottom, although the last two aren't quite cemented for mine.

Hawthorn drafted A graders in Roughead, Franklin, Rioli, Hodge and Birchall.

St.Kilda drafted A graders in Riewoldt, Goddard and Dal Santo in the top 20. Hayes was last century, so I won't include him.

Geelong got Selwood, Bartel and Kelly in the top 20.

I'll stop there, but out of 17 top 21 draft picks outside of Thompson we didn't draft one player that has cemented themselves as A grade, although I have high hopes for Frawley and Trengove. You may not want to do the exercise, but how many top 20 draft picks have we had in comparison to the clubs I just listed, or anyone else for that matter ? It's terribly damning and borderline spectacular in terms of failure. And right now I reckon Prendergast couldn't have done worse with the golden eggs he was gifted. I'd love to be proven wrong.

I disagree on Bate, Dunn, Morton and Petterd (not top 20). They're just very ordinary footballers. No magical wand at another club was going to turn a sow's ear into a silk purse. That said, it's far easier to play well in a team that is performing well and Dunn has shown that if we're up and about he can play some footy with a bit of X factor. So I agree that they'd get games in a good side, but none of them would be A grade in any side. Isn't the aim to get A graders out of top 20 draft picks ?

PS: for Nutbean and others - yes I'm using hindsight and yes I may not have done better in the same role. But it's not about me and I wasn't on the payroll and paid excellent coin to get picks right and improve our list. I sit in judgment like every fan should. You laud the great decisions your club makes and some of us make criticisms when they've erred. I know that there are some supporters that never want to hear one bad word about their precious club and precious 'darling' footballers. I think you may have guessed that I'm not one of them.

[Akum 2,660]

...

PS: for Nutbean and others - yes I'm using hindsight and yes I may not have done better in the same role. But it's not about me and I wasn't on the payroll and paid excellent coin to get picks right and improve our list. I sit in judgment like every fan should. You laud the great decisions your club makes and some of us make criticisms when they've erred. I know that there are some supporters that never want to hear one bad word about their precious club and precious 'darling' footballers. I think you may have guessed that I'm not one of them.

It's not a matter of hindsight. It's that "good" players in a great team can become great, while "good" players in a cr*p team can become ... well, the odds are stacked against them. Beams and Sidebottom are examples of this, as are the West Coast recent draftees who are fortunate enough to be playing in a team that's gone from lousy to great in a couple of years.

How much of the performance of our recent draftees is down to having been in a lousy team for their entire careers? I suppose we'll only know when one of the "good" ones (I don't mean the fringe players like Maric or Cheney or Buckley, despite the fact that they're all showing more than they did with us; I mean the likes of Gysberts or Morton or Blease or Strauss, of whom much more was expected when they were drafted) gets delisted & then gets picked up by a great team.

If we do have a fire sale of these types of top-20 draftees who are unlikely to ever fit into Neeld's game plan, it will be interesting to see how many are picked up, and how they go elsewhere. That will at least settle some of the argument.

[Hannibal 5,814]

It's not a matter of hindsight.

You tell them.

We've had about 7 players leave us in recent times and not one is a fixture in their new team. Would a Bate, Dunn, Petterd be any different ? I highly doubt it.

And yes, it's far easier to play well in a better team. A team with a number of A graders makes lesser lights better players. The momentum of a quality team also improves players. And virtually no players walk in and are A grade, it generally takes a number of years, but it's rare for players that are struggling to get a game in their 5th, or 6th years to take such a quantum leap. How about they get a regular game in a bottom team first ?

[My TD 156]

Compare our list to Richmond's. Granted Richmond aren't setting the world on fire, but who here wouldn't like to be playing the way they are.

And a hint- our forward line and backline are better than theirs.

Is that our imaginary forward line or our actual forward line ?

[stuie 7,374]

Martin was giving his neonatal nurse the "don't argue" lol don't give us that shite. He was a monster from day dot, and I could have developed Cotchin in my backyard with a bunch of witche's hats and a football fashioned out of disgarded newspapers bundled in sticky tape- such was his talent.

And you "Guarantee" we would have botched their development? Give us a spell mate.

Nobody is misinterpreting your posts. You are deluded and a bit of a dummy spitter.

We've had HOW many top 20 picks that have not become the players EVERY draft expert thought that they would and you think I'm deluded?!

Why do you think we added so many coaches and other staff in the last pre-season? Luxury? Spare cash we needed to spend?

[old55 23,687]

Unfortunately the only top 20 selection CAC made that turned into an A grader is a player you reckon can't kick and is no longer with us.

I've agreed CAC's results are below par, but better development may have given a better result.

There's a reasonable chance that Sylvia and McLean would have been A-graders if they were recruited by Collingwood, Geelong, West Coast or Hawthorn.

I agree Morton, Petterd, Dunn and Bate wouldn't be A-grade anywhere but at least some of them would be players.

Add optimum results above to Jones, Grimes, Frawley, Garland, Rivers, Jamar etc and he might crack a pass.

Do you reckon Thompson and Jolly would've become the players they are if they stayed at Melbourne?

[Sir Why You Little 37,122]

Do you reckon Thompson and Jolly would've become the players they are if they stayed at Melbourne?

Yes i do. That's what hurts, particularly Thompson. A very quiet A Grade player that one.

[jnrmac 20,184]

I'm not trying to have it both ways. There's some middle ground.

Do you think it's possible for recruiters to leave a club completely bereft of talent ? Do you think it's possible they'll stuff up every pick ? Even the worst recruiters get some right. It's a matter of evaluating opportunity against performance.

CAC delivered Frawley, Grimes, Rivers and Garland, which has provided a sound defence.

Only one of them is playing in defence.....

[Hannibal 5,814]

Do you reckon Thompson and Jolly would've become the players they are if they stayed at Melbourne?

Yes. They started in the Daniher era and there was enough evidence to suggest Daniher got the most out of his players.

Which is ironic, because both left because of Daniher.

[Akum 2,660]

Quoting (for emphasis) these words from the article "Dees aim to be active trade players" on the MFC website:

" “If we bring people to the Melbourne Football Club, it will be to fill specific roles.”

Neeld said this was highlighted on the field at the moment, with 192 cm tall defender-turned-forward Jared Rivers being asked to play a key role in attack.

“Just because of the status of our list and a few other things due to unavailabilities, we’re asking Jared to go down there and play as a 200 cm forward, which is difficult,” he said.

“We need a couple of forwards to stand up and give us a strong contest in the air - there’s no doubt about that.”

Apart from giving a clear indication that we'll be making a massive play for Cloke, this is also extremely illuminating in who we might be trading out.

Neeld clearly thinks very little of our current key forward options, with the obvious exception of Clark. This includes Watts, Martin, Cook, Dunn ... who else? Maybe Jurrah, Howe, Petterd, Bate. Hence his choice of Rivers, strongly implying in this article that it's because he sees no better options for the foreseeable future to play the type of marking forward role that he wants.

So unless these players can win a spot somewhere else (either as one of our best 6 defenders or as one of our best 2 HFFs), they may well be up for trade or delisting.

Under FA rules, it looks like the best that Collingwood can hope to gain if they can't hold on to Cloke is a single first-round pick, so their plan B must be to get a damn good trade, and any club that can come up with a damn good trade must be in the box seat.

So what about Cloke for Watts plus either of Martin or Jurrah or Howe? The other clubs in the running for Cloke may be able to come up with an equal trade, but they probably wouldn't be prepared to.

Why should Neeld have any commitment to any player on the current list, unless they're in the leadership group he helped choose or have been brought in by him.

[rpfc 28,763]

Under FA rules, it looks like the best that Collingwood can hope to gain if they can't hold on to Cloke is a single first-round pick, so their plan B must be to get a damn good trade, and any club that can come up with a damn good trade must be in the box seat.

So what about Cloke for Watts plus either of Martin or Jurrah or Howe? The other clubs in the running for Cloke may be able to come up with an equal trade, but they probably wouldn't be prepared to.

Why should Neeld have any commitment to any player on the current list, unless they're in the leadership group he helped choose or have been brought in by him.

Huh?

I know I have explored the idea of a 'Sign and Trade' scenario but Coll would have to have the space in the cap to meet the contract demands lest we spurn them and they are left well over the cap.

I really don't think that Cloke will be traded. He will leave through RFA or he will re-sign with Coll and they will keep him.

[Range Rover 1,935]

Put a line through ...

Bail

Bate

Bennell

Bartram

Dunn

Jetta

Morton

Petterd

Spencer

None of them are up to it. All will be gone at season's end IMO.

Add to that Green who should/must retire and Moloney who I reckon will walk and there's a huge Hardwick-esque clean-out coming. 10-11 players swept out the door.

[Dee_Flower 53]

I doubt that Jurrah will be back, regardless of the outcome of his trial.

[Forest Demon 4,681]

While I pretty much agree with the names you have listed, I get the sense this is a list of people you would move on at the end of the season, not necessarily who will be moved on as suggested by the 'all will be gone at seasons end'. For instance, I don't think there is any chance they are going to delist Bartram. Bail being another who will stay.