It's looking like a horrid move to trade Martin, who's started his Lions career reasonably. I watched him kick two of the first five goals for the Lions earlier. Further, that contract extension with Jamar - he hasn't fired a shot since.

Don't know how Martin will go as a forward for the Lions but we'll see, never really liked him in that role, but as a ruckman he would be 10x better than Jamar right now.

In fact, pretty much the only stat Jamar is ahead of Martin in is hit outs, unfortunately they don't tell us the efficiency of them.

It's like they don't practice stoppages at all. He just taps it down to whoever wants it, and 9 times out of 10, an opposition player fits that bill.

Correct. I counted just 6 centre clearances for us for the whole game. The Bummers got the rest. Someone suggested that Jamar should occasionally belt the ball in the direction of our forwards and at least get the ball to the right end. Ala Jeff White.

The OP is a salient one though. I believe much of our midfield impotence could start with Jamar. Put Ryder or Bellchambers' input in a Melbourne jumper rucking tonight and it may have been very different out of the centre square and thus on the scoreboard.

Another salient point, what the hell have our midfield group been practicing during the week? I watched a warm up drill before the game tonight. It consisted of Jamar tapping to one stationary player who would then hand ball to another stationary player, who would then bolt off. That's the sort of simplistic drill you'd run for an under 9s side. You don't want to be handballing to stationary players. It seemed to lack thought and any creativity whatsoever.

Don't know how Martin will go as a forward for the Lions but we'll see, never really liked him in that role, but as a ruckman he would be 10x better than Jamar right now.

In fact, pretty much the only stat Jamar is ahead of Martin in is hit outs, unfortunately they don't tell us the efficiency of them.

I don't rate Martin as a full time forward. I was referring more to his rucking ability. He at least had creativity with his hands and had the very occasional ability to go forward and kick goals. He was also quick and could cover ground. He pretty much has Jamar covered on all fronts. Jamar's a dinosaur.

I don't rate Martin as a full time forward. I was referring more to his rucking ability. He at least had creativity with his hands and had the very occasional ability to go forward and kick goals. He was also quick and could cover ground. He pretty much has Jamar covered on all fronts. Jamar's a dinosaur.

And we have another 2 years before that useless Megasaurass is gone...

There are so many things wrong with this club, I don't know where to start but the centre square is a good place to start. Meaningless taps to your feet that the opposition read & actually play for are Jamar's only contribution. Neeld tried different ruck options tonight. Our clearances came with Sellar and Clarke rucking. If Clarke wasn't so valuable (ie. if he was injured again & I'd suggested rucking him, I'd be even more suicidal) , we should ruck Clarke.

Watts and Jamar to Casey. Anyone and Spencer/Gawn in for 4 weeks at least.

When fit Clark is our number one ruck option. Dawes will have to do the job forward and Watts will need to go to CHF and see he can do what he was drafted to do. I don't hold up much hope for Sellar, Pederson or Fitzparick. Do you think the AFL might show mercy and let Hogan play?

He's on big money too. I just wonder that if Gawn and Spencer posed more of a threat, whether he'd lift his game. It wouldn't be a stretch to believe he'd become content, perhaps complacent, considering the other two cannot stay out on the park. Another MFC player willing to merely put in a shift and collect a paycheck.

Adam, Jamar won't lift, this is as good as he is.

He had one good year.

Now he's slowed down even more and has lost the little spring he had.

Jamar is done, nothing's changed from last year, still a spud, still too scared to kick and too slow to handball.

Stef Martin had far better numbers than Jamar last year - in the games Martin played.

Why we signed Jamar and got rid of Martin, who knows?

He must be in trouble because only one person here refered to Jamar as "Russian". I thought his game tonight was pox. So was just about everyone's though. But I felt exactly what you said Titan; it all started from him.

Good old donuts - I said a couple of years ago we should have traded him out as his value was high and would only go down and people howled me down. He is a dud who offers nothing - NOTHING - to a side. He is ust a complete liability had one very good year and 9 completely horrible ones. Why we signed him to 3 years last year [censored] if I know - I called it a mistake at the time and people wanted to howl me down again. While other clubs develop mods and KPP and then poach a semi competent ruckman when the times right we hang onto our dud for a decade, 13 seasons by the time his contract is up! Wow no wonder this team is farked.

Also the stat "hit outs" means absolutely nothing whatsoever in modern footy. Ruckman need to be measured by "hit outs to advantage" unfortunately none of our friends in the media have the ability or inclination to publish this stat.

Thought it might be interesting to readdress this thread after last night's performance.

Thought it might be interesting to readdress this thread after last night's performance.

It's to late to trade Jamar..... Should have done this years ago....

Fat Tony was spot-on in his original post though.

If only...

Would still be a great ruck if it wasn't for the sub rule.

It's to late to trade Jamar..... Should have done this years ago....

Agree. I said trade him 3 years ago when we could have got a couple of midfielders for him, his value was that high. He now has no trade value.

There was a thread yesterday/today about Jamar.

My view is that he's a bigger part of our inability to win clearances than we may have first admitted. His ruckwork was appalling last night. It means our mids have to ruck to opponents, with no plan or strategy. We just stand there, wait to see the ball, then go get it, whilst other clubs have active ruck plans, where certain mids go for the ball whilst others know where it's going and who to block and so on.

Is it possible to say Jamar's AA year hurt us more than it benefited us?

I have seen Jamar play some good footy but, at the moment, he is useless. Spencer is keen, chases, tackles and aggressive. Give him a go - he can't be any worse.

This from the AFL website's "Nine things we learned" for Round 2...

4) Mark Jamar is a shadow of his All-Australian self
There were many low points for Melbourne supporters in their 148-point loss to Essendon on Saturday. But the performance of ruckman Mark Jamar was right up there with the worst of them. The 29-year-old, who was selected in the All Australian team and finished third in the Demons' best and fairest in 2010, looked woefully out of sorts. Jamar dropped chest marks, missed targets by hand and foot and generally looked like a bloke who belonged in the VFL reserves rather than the AFL. It is an extraordinary fall from grace for a player who was among Melbourne's greatest success stories just a couple of years ago.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-04-07/nine-things-we-learned-from-round-two

When spencer is the answer.... The question is [censored]

There was a moment last night where it was almost as though Nate Jones had said, "enough of this", and decided to read the tap from Ryder rather than his own ruckman.

He won the clearance and we got a rare inside 50 from it.

The camera panned back to Jones who was, albeit very subtly, shaking his head in disbelief.

There was a thread yesterday/today about Jamar.

My view is that he's a bigger part of our inability to win clearances than we may have first admitted. His ruckwork was appalling last night. It means our mids have to ruck to opponents, with no plan or strategy. We just stand there, wait to see the ball, then go get it, whilst other clubs have active ruck plans, where certain mids go for the ball whilst others know where it's going and who to block and so on.

Is it possible to say Jamar's AA year hurt us more than it benefited us?

Trouble is we don't get it.

Think of Max Gawn hurling in Scullys bed.

I often think of this and fondly

Sadly I think posters are right Jamar was a liability on Saturday and I hope that they give one of our younger Rucks an opportunity,

Was very interesting to read through this whole thread.

Ding aling looks like he's had the last laugh.

On performances like Sat night it looks like we missed an opportunity to trade Jamar. It was hard to watch knowing a player who had previously been dominant (admittedly for a finite period of time) so powerless.

To a certain extent we (through Jamar) have been screwed by the change in ruck rules which are designed to suit the athletic types such as Nik Nat and Ryder... why didn't they do this when Jeff White was in his prime!

Right now I feel like we need to try someone else in the ruck. We are getting destroyed in the centre square - I actually think our forward line and defence are holding up ok considering the circumstances.

But even though I think this, I'm not sure if having traded Jamar we'd be in a better position. Having a read through some of the other threads about CS, the board, culture etc one of the criticisms is that people such as CS have cut careers short and therefore players don't feel secure etc Why give to the club, take paycuts etc if you know that in 3-5 years or if you get an injury they'll push you out the door? I think everyone can see cutting Junior was a terrible decision in hindsight... but the end of Robertson, White, Yze, Bruce and even Green... were any of them really offering much at the end of their careers?

I always remember Jamar in his All Australian season on the ground being interviewed after a BOG performance in Darwin in a close win over Port. That day and most of that year he bled for the club like no other ruckman in recent memory. Maybe he's not up to it at the moment, maybe the new rules have killed him but if we're getting Rodan, Dawes, Byrnes in for leadership and experience then trading Jamar is non-sensical. None of our recruits made all australian.

Don't get me wrong, Jamar round 1 and 2 has been a concern. It seemed obvious at the time that such a big contract extension could easily end up as a mistake.

But the reality is that Melbourne have barely had any players play into their 30s (without their form waning massively) over the last last 15 or so years. Without the experience around our kids get lost and can't develop.