Might as well bring Morton in. What harm could it do? We're already playing like {censored}, give him a run next week and see if he can bring ANYTHING to the table.

Also, you'd have to give someone like Tapscott a run in the midfield next week. I would love to see him run through Martin.

Out: *Jamar ( a confidence player who currently has none, and is the slowest player in the AFL. Jack Fitzpatrick a much better option given he can at least get to where the ball is, assuming Martin back as well),

*MacDonald ( not up to it, and Tom McDonald is going to be a ripper. Not overawed, good overhead, good engine, and makes good decisions)

*Bennell ( not up to it either, too many chances, just doesn't get the ball enough),

*McKenzie ( gutsy and hard, but just not talented enough)

In : *Martin (let the guy ruck and rove, all day if he wants,which he did bloody well last year when Jamar went down)

* Fitzpatrick,

*Moloney,

*Couch ( our McKenzie alternative)

We could get a few from Wang Magpies and they'd be stars compared to...

Im from Corowa, the Corowa 2nds had there first win in 2.5 years, there on a roll give them a run...

Might as well bring Morton in. What harm could it do? We're already playing like {censored}, give him a run next week and see if he can bring ANYTHING to the table.

I agree, if we are gonna get beaten each week cut away all the dead wood so there isnt a single player over 25, play the kids

The most remarkable statistic from the last 2 weeks is the reality that we just get very little of the ball. We had 2 players with 25+ disposals, Jones and Magner, and one more over 20 in Jack Trengove. Matthew Bate needs commendation for getting 14 possies in a quarter and a half. He must start next week. Why would we not just play guys who get the ball, and make that the essence of team selection? As a consequence, drop guys who don't. Jamar, 4 possessions, Bennell 3! Jamar simply must go........he had a good year in 2010, but frankly is dead wood out there.

Arguing over who should be in or out at Melbourne is a bit like arguing over a preference for the electric chair or lethal injection.

Young players need the senior group to lead the way. Without any exaggeration our senior group, and I don't mean leadership group, is the worst I've seen in my time following footy. Our 25+ age group has no-one that inspires confidence, or impacts games.

Green, Davey, Sylvia, Moloney, Rivers, Jamar, Joel MacDonald and Stefan Martin are the only players over the age of 25 on our list. Green has had a fine career, but he's finished and the rest are disappointing and certainly miles off the upper echelon of the AFL. Those group of 8 players are the reason we're crud. The fact we only have 8 players over the age of 25 is also one of the reasons we're crud. Hawthorn have 19. Carlton and Collingwood have 14. But more importantly some of their senior players are bona fide stars of the game, which is a far cry from our miserable 8. Even the Crows and Port have 13.

There is talent on the list, but we can't expect young players with less than 50 games experience to dominate games of footy. Col Garland feels like he's been around forever, but he's still 23 (nearly 24) and has only 60 games to his name. His best footy is ahead of him. And for these reasons I'm not slitting my wrist and can still glimpse the future. To all and sundry, even the experts, it looks like our list is crap, and the dearth of quality senior players ensures we're in for a tough year, but I like plenty of our young players. It's really disappointing that due to injury concerns we haven't seen enough of Strauss, Tapscott, and Gysberts, but if you put many of our developing players in the West Coast side they too would look terrific and be lauded by the football world. How would Andrew Gaff have looked if he was running around for Melbourne yesterday ? You'd see his talent, but he wouldn't have had half the game he did.

Unfortunately, there's going to be more pain until we get strength and preseasons into the younger players. When their time does come - and it will - I'm expecting a pretty steely resolve. These tough years will be etched into their psyche. Akermanis, Simon Black, Bradshaw, the Scott Bros, Keating, Leppitsch, Power, Chris Johnson and McCrae all played in 98 when the Lions won the spoon. They'd all played less than 100 games. Obviously it's drawing a ridiculously long bow to suggest we'll win one flag, let alone three, but there would have been times through that season when Lions' supporters doubted their talent. When some would have been questioning whether their kids were good enough ? Needless to say, in 1998 not one Brisbane player made All Australian. In 2001 they had 4 and by 2002 they had 6. All of those players were on the list in 98. That said, we're no Lions of 99 who rebounded back up the ladder with a new coach. They had Lappin, Voss, Alistair Lynch, Ashcroft and a couple of other senior players showing the way, which gets back to the heart of our problem.

We're in for some more hurt, but I'm certain we do have some very good young players on our list and while that's the case I know things aren't as bad as they seem.

Arguing over who should be in or out at Melbourne is a bit like arguing over a preference for the electric chair or lethal injection.

Young players need the senior group to lead the way. Without any exaggeration our senior group, and I don't mean leadership group, is the worst I've seen in my time following footy. Our 25+ age group has no-one that inspires confidence, or impacts games.

Green, Davey, Sylvia, Moloney, Rivers, Jamar, Joel MacDonald and Stefan Martin are the only players over the age of 25 on our list. Green has had a fine career, but he's finished and the rest are disappointing and certainly miles off the upper echelon of the AFL. Those group of 8 players are the reason we're crud. The fact we only have 8 players over the age of 25 is also one of the reasons we're crud. Hawthorn have 19. Carlton and Collingwood have 14. But more importantly some of their senior players are bona fide stars of the game, which is a far cry from our miserable 8. Even the Crows and Port have 13.

There is talent on the list, but we can't expect young players with less than 50 games experience to dominate games of footy. Col Garland feels like he's been around forever, but he's still 23 (nearly 24) and has only 60 games to his name. His best footy is ahead of him. And for these reasons I'm not slitting my wrist and can still glimpse the future. To all and sundry, even the experts, it looks like our list is crap, and the dearth of quality senior players ensures we're in for a tough year, but I like plenty of our young players. It's really disappointing that due to injury concerns we haven't seen enough of Strauss, Tapscott, and Gysberts, but if you put many of our developing players in the West Coast side they too would look terrific and be lauded by the football world. How would Andrew Gaff have looked if he was running around for Melbourne yesterday ? You'd see his talent, but he wouldn't have had half the game he did.

Unfortunately, there's going to be more pain until we get strength and preseasons into the younger players. When their time does come - and it will - I'm expecting a pretty steely resolve. These tough years will be etched into their psyche. Akermanis, Simon Black, Bradshaw, the Scott Bros, Keating, Leppitsch, Power, Chris Johnson and McCrae all played in 98 when the Lions won the spoon. They'd all played less than 100 games. Obviously it's drawing a ridiculously long bow to suggest we'll win one flag, let alone three, but there would have been times through that season when Lions' supporters doubted their talent. When some would have been questioning whether their kids were good enough ? Needless to say, in 1998 not one Brisbane player made All Australian. In 2001 they had 4 and by 2002 they had 6. All of those players were on the list in 98. That said, we're no Lions of 99 who rebounded back up the ladder with a new coach. They had Lappin, Voss, Alistair Lynch, Ashcroft and a couple of other senior players showing the way, which gets back to the heart of our problem.

We're in for some more hurt, but I'm certain we do have some very good young players on our list and while that's the case I know things aren't as bad as they seem.

Post of the weekend thus far BH. Our performance was deplorable but its good to see some balanced logic.

Agree we need more changes but who do we bring in? It wouldn't bother me to see tynan,blease,couch,tapscott,morton,bate to start not sub and screw it put cook in who cares clean out the joint!

Cowboy it appears we have no talent because we have so much inexperience that many haven't yet taken that next step. When in reality our list is full of talent, unfulfilled talent, & we have to keep giving them chances to grab onto, until some find the go lever.

TMac looks OK, IMO Davis soon but not too many in defence all at once. We see what happens when we upset the delicate balance of experience, gameplan & structure all together. This is why I thought we would NOT be in the 8 this year.

We have Tynan looking like something.

We just have to remove any semblance of softness as we find it. Putting players like Dunn & Green & Davey are just short term crack paper overs... Maybe Moloney as well? But for stability we have to.

We have limited players in our mature bracket everywhere.

Assuming Moloney is available and Sylvia is still a week away.6 changes is too many however the changes should come from this group.

In: Moloney, Morton, Couch, Strauss, Tapscott, Martin

Out: McKenzie, MacDonald, Green, Bennell, Dunn, Sellar

Unless you can play a key post we need players that can spread through the midfield and players that can kick. Green, Dunn, MacDonald do not offer enough flexibility or run. Bennell was appalling and McKenzie seems to lack confidence at present. Moloney does not deserve a game but he will perform against a weaker side.

Post of the weekend thus far BH. Our performance was deplorable but its good to see some balanced logic.

Fully agree. Sometimes theres some pearls of good thought that shines the dross that often follows a bad loss.

One of the best posts of the season. Well done Ben.

Assuming Moloney is available and Sylvia is still a week away.6 changes is too many however the changes should come from this group.

In: Moloney, Morton, Couch, Strauss, Tapscott, Martin

Out: McKenzie, MacDonald, Green, Bennell, Dunn, Sellar

Unless you can play a key post we need players that can spread through the midfield and players that can kick. Green, Dunn, MacDonald do not offer enough flexibility or run. Bennell was appalling and McKenzie seems to lack confidence at present. Moloney does not deserve a game but he will perform against a weaker side.

I think those changes are the best that we can sculpt out at the moment.

Ben Hur - well done mate, great post.

Big Red - I'm agreeing with you (and sadly the fox footy commentators). Anyone on our list capable of running through the midfield should play next week and only use our KPP. As much as I like Sellar I think that he has to go back to the 2's as Frawley, Garland and Riv can lock up the backline.

So Tappy, Blease, Tynan, Morton, Malony need to come in. Howe running though the mid/back was a good move and Pettard needs to be doing this as well.

Can't wait for the draft and we pick up 3 first round mids. Shall be beautiful!

Ben Hur - well done mate, great post.

Big Red - I'm agreeing with you (and sadly the fox footy commentators). Anyone on our list capable of running through the midfield should play next week and only use our KPP. As much as I like Sellar I think that he has to go back to the 2's as Frawley, Garland and Riv can lock up the backline.

So Tappy, Blease, Tynan, Morton, Malony need to come in. Howe running though the mid/back was a good move and Pettard needs to be doing this as well.

Can't wait for the draft and we pick up 3 first round mids. Shall be beautiful!

Firstly, it is Moloney, and second he is baloney at present and should not return until he has proved his fitness. If he in fact tried to hide an injury once again and basically cost us a midfielder against Brisbane than he needs to be held to account.

Much as he was out of form in his one appearance this season McKenzie is the sort of never-say-die man we need in the team.

As for the other "ins" if they are fit and perform at Casey today, probably yes though shuffling a newbie such as Tynan back and forth may to be bad for his development - something we have not been exactly great at.

Re the draft: all very well to recruit mids but we have yet to show that we can develop them....I certainly hope that the current panel can do a lot better than their predecessors. I have confidence there, though remain very worried by the dearth of senior on field leaders who actually lead.

Arguing over who should be in or out at Melbourne is a bit like arguing over a preference for the electric chair or lethal injection.

Young players need the senior group to lead the way. Without any exaggeration our senior group, and I don't mean leadership group, is the worst I've seen in my time following footy. Our 25+ age group has no-one that inspires confidence, or impacts games.

Green, Davey, Sylvia, Moloney, Rivers, Jamar, Joel MacDonald and Stefan Martin are the only players over the age of 25 on our list. Green has had a fine career, but he's finished and the rest are disappointing and certainly miles off the upper echelon of the AFL. Those group of 8 players are the reason we're crud. The fact we only have 8 players over the age of 25 is also one of the reasons we're crud. Hawthorn have 19. Carlton and Collingwood have 14. But more importantly some of their senior players are bona fide stars of the game, which is a far cry from our miserable 8. Even the Crows and Port have 13.

There is talent on the list, but we can't expect young players with less than 50 games experience to dominate games of footy. Col Garland feels like he's been around forever, but he's still 23 (nearly 24) and has only 60 games to his name. His best footy is ahead of him. And for these reasons I'm not slitting my wrist and can still glimpse the future. To all and sundry, even the experts, it looks like our list is crap, and the dearth of quality senior players ensures we're in for a tough year, but I like plenty of our young players. It's really disappointing that due to injury concerns we haven't seen enough of Strauss, Tapscott, and Gysberts, but if you put many of our developing players in the West Coast side they too would look terrific and be lauded by the football world. How would Andrew Gaff have looked if he was running around for Melbourne yesterday ? You'd see his talent, but he wouldn't have had half the game he did.

Unfortunately, there's going to be more pain until we get strength and preseasons into the younger players. When their time does come - and it will - I'm expecting a pretty steely resolve. These tough years will be etched into their psyche. Akermanis, Simon Black, Bradshaw, the Scott Bros, Keating, Leppitsch, Power, Chris Johnson and McCrae all played in 98 when the Lions won the spoon. They'd all played less than 100 games. Obviously it's drawing a ridiculously long bow to suggest we'll win one flag, let alone three, but there would have been times through that season when Lions' supporters doubted their talent. When some would have been questioning whether their kids were good enough ? Needless to say, in 1998 not one Brisbane player made All Australian. In 2001 they had 4 and by 2002 they had 6. All of those players were on the list in 98. That said, we're no Lions of 99 who rebounded back up the ladder with a new coach. They had Lappin, Voss, Alistair Lynch, Ashcroft and a couple of other senior players showing the way, which gets back to the heart of our problem.

We're in for some more hurt, but I'm certain we do have some very good young players on our list and while that's the case I know things aren't as bad as they seem.

Good post.

The bolded bit is the bit that gets me, though. That concept of time. That if we wait, we will get there.

There has to come a point when we can no longer simply point to 'time' and say 'with time, we will be OK'. We said the same thing in 2008 when we won three games. Four years later, we're still saying 'give it time'. You see what I mean? Surely, at some point, the focus has to shift from what we might become in the future to what we ought to be now.

If they change the umpires and the venue for this game ,we at least have a hope.

yesterday was an embarrassment for the umpiring fraternity .

Watching the game again -we had no hope whatsoever after the first half .

Jesus got off lightly .

Our crucifiction began on Monday and ended yesterday when the siren blew.

Surely, at some point, the focus has to shift from what we might become in the future to what we ought to be now.

So what ought we be now other than what we are? rpfc was repeatedly posting circa 2010 that, in spite of it being post-bottoming out, our list had gotten younger since the 2007-2009 "events". I don't know if anyone's bothered crunching the numbers recently, but I'd be stunned if we weren't still in the bottom four clubs in terms of experience on the playing list and potentially still going backwards.

So what ought we be now other than what we are? rpfc was repeatedly posting circa 2010 that, in spite of it being post-bottoming out, our list had gotten younger since the 2007-2009 "events". I don't know if anyone's bothered crunching the numbers recently, but I'd be stunned if we weren't still in the bottom four clubs in terms of experience on the playing list and potentially still going backwards.

Nasher ,

you must have spent a fortune on padlocks-you were throwing them around like confetti last night .

Stalin would be proud of you-and then he would kill you too .

So what ought we be now other than what we are? rpfc was repeatedly posting circa 2010 that, in spite of it being post-bottoming out, our list had gotten younger since the 2007-2009 "events". I don't know if anyone's bothered crunching the numbers recently, but I'd be stunned if we weren't still in the bottom four clubs in terms of experience on the playing list and potentially still going backwards.

I'm talking about the mindset.

Eventually, we will stop saying 'it will come, give it time' (or words to that effect) and start saying 'this isn't good enough for the present'. I like thinking about when that moment will come.

The most remarkable statistic from the last 2 weeks is the reality that we just get very little of the ball. We had 2 players with 25+ disposals, Jones and Magner, and one more over 20 in Jack Trengove. Matthew Bate needs commendation for getting 14 possies in a quarter and a half. He must start next week. Why would we not just play guys who get the ball, and make that the essence of team selection? As a consequence, drop guys who don't. Jamar, 4 possessions, Bennell 3! Jamar simply must go........he had a good year in 2010, but frankly is dead wood out there.

Agreed. Possession stats are said to be meaningless in modern footy, but that's only because teams so often wrack up heaps of do-nothing touches. Not so for the Demons. Therefore, bringing in players who can find the ball is critical. Jamar is fast becoming just as useless around the ground as he once was, and his taps go nowhere. Why, then, is he in the side? He can still take a mark, so he should be moved forward, with Martin moved into the ruck as our main man in the middle. Jamar is better as a forward than Martin, and Martin is better around the ground than Jamar, so it makes sense to switch their roles.

Green can't find the ball to save himself, so he should be dropped in favour of someone who can. Sellar, too, has no ball-winning ability, so he should be dropped. He was only brought in to cover the extremely tall WCE forwardline anyway, so it's no big loss. The problem is finding someone who can figure out how to get the ball. Can Morton still do this? I seem to recall him providing options in his first couple of years and wracking up a few over 20 possession games. While he's probably gone backwards, I still believe there is significant upside to his game. Why not give him another opportunity?

Bate should have played the whole game this week, and the fact that he wasn't selected on the back of his good quarter last week as a sub has me dumbfounded. It is actually an indicator that Mark Neeld is actually far more clueless about how to manage a football side than I thought he might be. It is a cardinal sin to make a player the sub two weeks in a row unless he is significantly underdone and can't run out an entire game. I refuse to believe this applies to Bate.

Bennell is another person who simply has no idea how to find the ball. It appears that Couchy can pick up uncontested possessions (which we lack the ability to do), so he should come right back into the side. Tapscott should come in as a running backman to free up Grimes to go into the midfield and give us some vision and class where we need it most.

There are probably four or five more guys who could come out of the side, but there simply aren't enough people pressing up from underneath to warrant many more selection changes than this. However, as long as there aren't any attitude or "buy-in" issues with Brent Moloney (which has been sugested), he is still worth putting in the team, particularly against Richmond, who he regularly plays well against. He still draws the harshest tag and can help free up another player (such as Trengove or Jones) to play a looser, more attacking brand of footy.

In all, I am worried about our dearth of players who can effectively rotate through the middle, and I would be trying practically everyone in short bursts in the midfield, if only to see who has potential in this most critical of areas. Even James Frawley should be given a run through there, because at the moment his value in our defence is questionable. He has the physical assets to kill it in the midfield, and should at least be tried there. He gave away three goals from poor defensive play against the Eagles, so his form as a backman should be seriously questioned.

I could write more and more and more, but my post is already TLDR. Mark Neeld does have options, and does have things to work with. I can only hope he is more creative than he appears to be. I was one of his staunchest defenders last week, but his press conference this week and (more importantly) his refusal two weeks in a row to conduct any positional experiments with our players has me worried about his inventiveness and creativity. Mark my words: Innovation is key to success. The game is constantly evolving, and trying to copy Collingwood of 2010 (as Neeld appears to be doing) is going to be just as ineffective as trying to copy Geelong of 2007 (which Bailey got sacked for).

I'm talking about the mindset. Eventually, we will stop saying 'it will come, give it time' (or words to that effect) and start saying 'this isn't good enough for the present'. I like thinking about when that moment will come.

I adopt the forward-looking mindset mindset because if I focus solely on the pile of dung we currently are, I'll end up like "old dee", where how we currently are is all I can ever see.

Out: Bennell, Green, J MacDonald, Sellar

In: Moloney, Tapscott, Strauss, Martin

I'm talking about the mindset.

Eventually, we will stop saying 'it will come, give it time' (or words to that effect) and start saying 'this isn't good enough for the present'. I like thinking about when that moment will come.

I think it's arrived, but to define, we still have to be patient.

Just not throw undeserved games at players, until they've worked hard enough for them.

Out: Bennell, Green, J MacDonald, Sellar

In: Moloney, Tapscott, Strauss, Martin

I agree, although it's a toss up between Strauss and Blease for mine. Let's see how they both pull up braz!

Arguing over who should be in or out at Melbourne is a bit like arguing over a preference for the electric chair or lethal injection.

Young players need the senior group to lead the way. Without any exaggeration our senior group, and I don't mean leadership group, is the worst I've seen in my time following footy. Our 25+ age group has no-one that inspires confidence, or impacts games.

Green, Davey, Sylvia, Moloney, Rivers, Jamar, Joel MacDonald and Stefan Martin are the only players over the age of 25 on our list. Green has had a fine career, but he's finished and the rest are disappointing and certainly miles off the upper echelon of the AFL. Those group of 8 players are the reason we're crud. The fact we only have 8 players over the age of 25 is also one of the reasons we're crud. Hawthorn have 19. Carlton and Collingwood have 14. But more importantly some of their senior players are bona fide stars of the game, which is a far cry from our miserable 8. Even the Crows and Port have 13.

There is talent on the list, but we can't expect young players with less than 50 games experience to dominate games of footy. Col Garland feels like he's been around forever, but he's still 23 (nearly 24) and has only 60 games to his name. His best footy is ahead of him. And for these reasons I'm not slitting my wrist and can still glimpse the future. To all and sundry, even the experts, it looks like our list is crap, and the dearth of quality senior players ensures we're in for a tough year, but I like plenty of our young players. It's really disappointing that due to injury concerns we haven't seen enough of Strauss, Tapscott, and Gysberts, but if you put many of our developing players in the West Coast side they too would look terrific and be lauded by the football world. How would Andrew Gaff have looked if he was running around for Melbourne yesterday ? You'd see his talent, but he wouldn't have had half the game he did.

Unfortunately, there's going to be more pain until we get strength and preseasons into the younger players. When their time does come - and it will - I'm expecting a pretty steely resolve. These tough years will be etched into their psyche. Akermanis, Simon Black, Bradshaw, the Scott Bros, Keating, Leppitsch, Power, Chris Johnson and McCrae all played in 98 when the Lions won the spoon. They'd all played less than 100 games. Obviously it's drawing a ridiculously long bow to suggest we'll win one flag, let alone three, but there would have been times through that season when Lions' supporters doubted their talent. When some would have been questioning whether their kids were good enough ? Needless to say, in 1998 not one Brisbane player made All Australian. In 2001 they had 4 and by 2002 they had 6. All of those players were on the list in 98. That said, we're no Lions of 99 who rebounded back up the ladder with a new coach. They had Lappin, Voss, Alistair Lynch, Ashcroft and a couple of other senior players showing the way, which gets back to the heart of our problem.

We're in for some more hurt, but I'm certain we do have some very good young players on our list and while that's the case I know things aren't as bad as they seem.

Very good post Ben . Identifies the problem in a nutshell . 'Rpfc' said much the same thing in a post late last night . Post #28 of this thread...................

http://demonland.com...page__p__546139

But ............where to from here ?

Our young up and comers need very good senior players around them to aid in their development otherwise they may never develop properly . It's a major concern .

I believe we need to bring in as many decent free agents as our salary cap allows . "Out with old , in with the new" needs to be the mentality . Sentiment needs to be thrown out the window . It's so important for our young players to have excellent role models . The coaching staff can only do so much .

Our senior players should have already been warned and put on notice . I'm hoping they have . They probably take up a fair whack of our salary cap so there's one issue partly solved if we move some of them on .Our senior players quite often step up in "winnable" games and this often clouds the issue . This next game against Richmond could serve as a classic example .

We need to bring some experienced players into our club . Free agency allows us to do that . If they're the right type and assuming they want to come of course . We can't be a club where free agents can see a bit of "superannuation" . We need to choose wisely if we go down this track .

Alternatively we could trade with other clubs to bring in some more experienced types . This is a lot trickier as our senior players probably haven't much trade value and we don't really want to give up any of our decent young players . And losing any of our 1st round draft picks next year is unpalatable .

Think I'm right in saying that we have to pay 100% of our salary cap if we continue to get the handout from the AFL . That being the case , we may as well be paying the right players .

Edit : North Melbourne famously brought in Doug Wade , John Rantall and Barry Davis in the early 70's to great effect . The league at the time had brought in a "10 year rule" . A type of free agency . North went from being a basket case to winning 2 premierships not long after . Wade was 31 , Davis 29 and Rantall was 29 when they made the move in 1973 .

So , if people are put off by the age of many of the free agents , think again . The beauty of free agency is that a club can keep bringing them in to replace earlier free agents that have reached the end . Hawthorn , Carlton and Essendon brought in many players from interstate from 1979 - 1989 . They were aggressive in their pursuit of these players and collectively they won a total of 10 flags in that time period .

Time to think outside the square .

Cheers

we need DAN NICHOLSON !

we need speed off the back line.

we are so slow compared to other clubs.

In: couch/nicho, martin, tapscott and blease

Out: green, sellar, macdonald and bennell

The annoying thing our players seem to have a bad game go to casey and play food and come back and play [censored] again.

The side changes way to much every week.