Ultimate Footy - Norm Smith League

[rpfc 27,590]

Even being away for the last 5 weeks in Asia, I am still on top of the league and 10 in front in the tipping comp.I am sprouting now, as I expect to be thumped this week by another mod, the Wrecker, they just hate me these mods.Want to destroy an old soul like me.Another point fellow coaches, we need to take stock before next year and make sure we agree with all the rules and sundry before we move ahead. JA has done an outstanding job IMO, however sets of broths along with very close friends offering pathetic and underhanded trades needs investigating before we move head.This is a great game, but needs to have scrutiny in place.Maybe we need a league committee, with say, RFPC and Lower Deck ( HT ) as panel members. Take care all- and take joy of the whipping I get this week , because it will be the last.I will not give your look in after the break.

Yes, they have been interesting haven't they?

My view is that with this 'Keeper league' coming in next year, there will be more of these trades where it is beneficial for teams not contending to give two improvements for teams for one 'keeper' so that the team below can better structure themselves for the next season.

I am not saying it is right or wrong, it's just what is happening/will happen.

Anyway...

The league can veto what they feel is unfair I guess. I don't know about a comission... We aren't selling the TV rights... Or are we?

[jayceebee31 671]

I like the idea of a league commissioner who has the ability to reject trades if they are unreasonable. I know UF has this feature.

Anyway welcome back JCB. You have quite a team going there. I'm glad your back to stuff it up

?

Thanks - looking forward to some realistic trades- especially from you, as you have offered duds before now.

Got a meeting with Don & Cam re Demons next week totry to find out what the hell is rally going on in Demonland.I sincerly concerned that Neeldchas not got it especially the respect of the players.Ruffled to many feathers I think.

[H_T 2,941]

?

Thanks - looking forward to some realistic trades- especially from you, as you have offered duds before now.

Got a meeting with Don & Cam re Demons next week totry to find out what the hell is rally going on in Demonland.I sincerly concerned that Neeldchas not got it especially the respect of the players.Ruffled to many feathers I think.

Your attitude towards those who volunteer their time to moderate could improve JCB. You're undoubtedly doing well in UF. But you're kidding yourself with the tipping, considering no one apart from you and I are tipping. Having missed a week of tipping, I don't think I'll catch you.

[scarlett 247]

Welcome back from Japan JCB - As usual you have nailed the hard hitting issue right on the head.

The last week of trades have been a little bizzare - A league Committee is a solid suggestion to police this going forward.

Not sure why we are not playing through the Byes either? It would of added an interesting twist to the season.

i suggested just some basic guidelines as in when to start trading for next season and holding onto injured players that are out for the whole year, what if you have an injured player you can delist them before a certain round and they can still be a keeper for next season, say if there's one player that you can do this for and if your star goes down then thats just to bad because you've already nominated player 1. just an idea to try and get people playing for this year instead of looking forward to next year, and of course then you'd get the situation where someone could trade for that right to player 1 in the last few rounds after said round. i know i've already put out a pm to someone seeking a trade that will probably hurt me this year but pay dividends next year. also how many "keepers" do we have?

as for the byes i remember it being discussed at the start of the season and the majority did not want to play the bye rounds, last year's byes hurt alot more though and changed the shape of the top eight. i think, would of been interesting thats for sure!

[Old Man Rivers 326]

Even being away for the last 5 weeks in Asia, I am still on top of the league and 10 in front in the tipping comp.I am sprouting now, as I expect to be thumped this week by another mod, the Wrecker, they just hate me these mods.Want to destroy an old soul like me.Another point fellow coaches, we need to take stock before next year and make sure we agree with all the rules and sundry before we move ahead. JA has done an outstanding job IMO, however sets of broths along with very close friends offering pathetic and underhanded trades needs investigating before we move head.This is a great game, but needs to have scrutiny in place.Maybe we need a league committee, with say, RFPC and Lower Deck ( HT ) as panel members. Take care all- and take joy of the whipping I get this week , because it will be the last.I will not give your look in after the break.

Welcome back from Japan JCB - As usual you have nailed the hard hitting issue right on the head.

The last week of trades have been a little bizzare - A league Committee is a solid suggestion to police this going forward.

Don't get to comfortable at the top of the tree, quite a few teams in very good form intend to hunt you down.

Not sure why we are not playing through the Byes either? It would of added an interesting twist to the season.

Anyway welcome back & let me know when you are ready to trade Stevie J?

Blake for Waters......ah no thanks robbo24...

Oh and OMR, I considered your offer of Colin Sylvia for Luke Shuey for all of a millisecond ! No deal.

One is ranked no.4 the other no. 468 or some infinite number. I'll let others be the guess of who is who.

HT - There is probably not enough space on the Demonland website to list all your interesting lopsided proposals.

The Sylvia - Shuey proposal was a joke in direct response to your Travis Colyer(who the fark is he) - Sylvia trade proposal 2 minutes earlier.

Lets have a look at a couple of your classic proposals in season 2012

* Dane Swan - Xavier Ellis / D. Mundy

The No. 5 ranked player for a bloke who hasn't played in 2012 & another bloke pushing towards the 300's.

& as for your fascination with Colin Sylvia

*James Kelly / Colin Sylvia - again X. Ellis / D. Mundy combo

* Nathan Jones / Colin Sylvia - again X.Ellis / D.Mundy combo

* Colin Sylvia - Tom Scully (Disgusts me he was ever on your list)

* Colin Sylvia - Scully & the now delisted Zach Touhy

We all know what Colin has delivered in season 2012 to date but then again we all know what he is capable off.

Thing's can turn very quickly in this game, so I wouldn't get too smart too quickly.

YOU are playing an interesting game listing trade proposals, just dont forget about people who live in glass houses my friend.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Old Man Rivers

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

The league can veto what they feel is unfair I guess. I don't know about a comission... We aren't selling the TV rights... Or are we?

Agreed.

The trades proposed were hairy. They were vetoed. Notice also that in involved the only two new guys in the league. Now that it's done, we can expect two things... They'll know to explain trades when vetoes happen, and people will have to get used to trades involving injured keepers like this.

Personally I reckon everyone wins, and there's no reason to jump up and down and change things.

[scarlett 247]

Agreed.

The trades proposed were hairy. They were vetoed. Notice also that in involved the only two new guys in the league. Now that it's done, we can expect two things... They'll know to explain trades when vetoes happen, and people will have to get used to trades involving injured keepers like this.

Personally I reckon everyone wins, and there's no reason to jump up and down and change things.

so how many players can we actually keep?

[JACKATTACK 17]

so how many players can we actually keep?

4, chosen at the start of next season before the draft.

[jayceebee31 671]

Your attitude towards those who volunteer their time to moderate could improve JCB. You're undoubtedly doing well in UF. But you're kidding yourself with the tipping, considering no one apart from you and I are tipping. Having missed a week of tipping, I don't think I'll catch you.

Fair critiscm , however, being 19 in front of OMR, before the start of this round and without being smart, big lead I anyone's opinion I would believe.Congrat's to another mod-Wrecker in beating me this week,by a FD & 2 Handballs.

See ya later on.

[Old Man Rivers 326]

I am in Footy Tips? What are we talking about here?

Team OMR hits the extended break on the back of 3 consecutive Victories

Welcome back Mumford, Swan, Heath Shaw & the barnstorming arrival of Jonno Patton & game on in the 2nd half of the season.

[Range Rover 1,935]

4, chosen at the start of next season before the draft.

I don't like this 'keepers' concept at all.

How are the cellar dwellers supposed to get back into contention?

[Old Man Rivers 326]

I don't like this 'keepers' concept at all.

How are the cellar dwellers supposed to get back into contention?

Fair Call RR - It is going to be a tough ask from the bottom rungs no doubt.

Surely 4 Keepers is the Max from any single season?

Any greater number of keepers & it would be mission impossible , I guess this whole concept hasn't really been helped by the recent

spate of dodgy looking trades that have unfolded..

[Range Rover 1,935]

Fair Call RR - It is going to be a tough ask from the bottom rungs no doubt.

Surely 4 Keepers is the Max from any single season?

Any greater number of keepers & it would be mission impossible , I guess this whole concept hasn't really been helped by the recent

spate of dodgy looking trades that have unfolded..

Yes left a bit of a sour taste but ... the 'keepers' concept? I don't get it. Why are we supposed to care or get all sentimental about these players?

I say scrap it and just run the draft in reverse order from this year.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Range Rover

[Mad_Melbourne 872]

I dont like the keeper idea either, i think the best idea is to have a bidding system on the draft again and sort it out like that, or have the people in the comp who finish lowest get to pick which draft pick they have!

Just quietly though, my mob is getting some good numbers, 13 goals by buddy definitely helped me out this week! Come into the break after a few good wins and hopefully over that period I get a few players back from injury which will add to my selection dilemmas!

oh and new ladder leader, my troops are currently getting the job done, they are off to boxing camp, which has been a great initiative from the leadership group, hopefully no injuries occur during the 3 weeks off!

Edited June 3, 2012 by Mad_Melbourne

[rpfc 27,590]

Those at the bottom looking to next year should be offering two good players that will improve teams above for one of their keepers. Gives that team a boost for that season and the team sets itself up for next year.

[Old Man Rivers 326]

My biggest problem is teams giving up @ the half way mark of the season.

It's close to tanking & does not encourage a healhy competition.

There needs to be something added to encourage teams to continue to compete flat out all season.

I actually don't mind the Keepers concept & think we are committed to playing that format in 2013.

Sure we can have another look if it really does create an uneven comp, however I hate the sell your soul attitude

this season to improve next season.

Perhaps we need to set up a special Trade week at the end of the season, before the 2013 draft?

& maybe some sort of incentive like a Priority Pick for the most improved team from 9th - 18th in the 2nd half of the season.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

I don't like this 'keepers' concept at all.

How are the cellar dwellers supposed to get back into contention?

The recent vetoed trade is a good answer. JLH had only a couple of keepers. So he traded one currently playing superstar, for 2 keepers that will likely play next year. The guy he traded to is still very much in it this year, so he keeps his list alive for season 2012. And another guy gets his already ruined season 2012 out of the way and nails down a KP forward who kicks bags AND one of the big 6. That's one of the good reasons keepers exist. You can have a woeful first 10 rounds and still have something to show for it.

Fair Call RR - It is going to be a tough ask from the bottom rungs no doubt.

To win this year, yes, of course. But look at the bottom four sides current keepers:

JLH: Sloane, Murphy, Kennedy and Hodge. That's pretty damn good.

RR: Leuenberger, Goddard, Griffen, and one of Bellchambers or Schultz. Nothing wrong with those.

Jackattack: Judd, Ryder, Fyfe and one of Iles or Barlow. 3 out of four, and can trade for another as he has some good 100ish players that are handy in big lists.

Scarlett: Swallow, Dustin Martin, Nicnat and Tomohawk. With Tuck and Hayes having huge seasons, but are older.

I don't see anything wrong with those guys having problems with depth, but at least going into next season knowing they've got their 4 best from last season.

Consider the comparison to someone higher up on the ladder. Let's say Mad Melbourne who you would think would have easily the biggest name keepers going round in Watson (4), Deledio (6), Kennedy (12) and Franklin(27).... Wow... Now that's a big name top 4. But let's say it all ended as it stands now. MM has to say goodbye to Crameri, Broughton, Sewell, and David Swallow, who you would think would be good keeper material as he's only going to improve... Even my own list I might have some depressing decisions to make. I have to make a decision between Maric (11), Selwood (19), Redden (21), Mitchell (39), Jack Riewoldt (74), Van Berlo (90), and Kreuzer (132)... Going by those stats, Riewoldt Van Berlo and Krooz are my offcasts next year. Consider also that going into next season, the teams who are doing badly now will more than likely get FIRST CRACK at those offcasts... So in the end it's a great evener.

Also... If you have a superstar one year. It kind of sucks when you get to the next and he's on someone else's list. I like the idea that every year I play MM, I know he's "the guy with Franklin." Because let's be honest, even if he did a knee, he would still keep him.

I love the keeper concept for this reason.

I guess this whole concept hasn't really been helped by the recent

spate of dodgy looking trades that have unfolded..

The irony of that is that the keeper concept EXPLAINS it.

Yes left a bit of a sour taste but ... the 'keepers' concept? I don't get it. Why are we supposed to care or get all sentimental about these players?

That's the idea. It's supposed to add a bit of "your man/my man" to it. I think it works with a bunch of mates who like the smack talk... but this year... The smack talk has completely vanished. Actually... JCB is positively Edwardian in his manners. This league needs to lift in this regard.

My biggest problem is teams giving up @ the half way mark of the season.

It's close to tanking & does not encourage a healhy competition.

Sure it does. The trades ARE the competition. And for sides that are 3-7 and with nothing on their list, like JLH, it gives them some hope. He wasn't going to win a game anyway.

I actually don't mind the Keepers concept & think we are committed to playing that format in 2013.

Yeah. A lot of trades have taken place this way. But as with all things, we should revisit it in the off season and put it to a vote. If keepers is gone, we should go to Robbie Flower and talk to them about an EPL situation I think.

I really don't think tanking is as evil as everyone makes it out to be. Certainly not in the context of ultimate footy. The intentions were always pretty transparent. You get a player for his career if you want. I love that my favourite player outside the dees is on my team. And I'll keep it that way as long as it's reasonable. I think that's great personally.

[DeeVoted 582]

I'm still with the keeper concept.it can work. BUT I propose that only 2 keepers for each coach. I still think the idea I put forward in an earlier post will work. (cant be bothered to go searching for it)-- re a revised priorty pick for lwr team.

If the majority vote against the keeper concent,then I am happy to go with EPL,but that needs to be decided sooner than later, as the RF coaches also need to agree and have enough time to get their teams in order.

With 2 keepers and and EPL concept both would be workable,as its only 2 keepers and less impact on coaches with the same players, one coach in the NS League could drop 1 off his list,and the incoming likewise. Then they select a a grader to offest their lose,b4 the draft is open to all.

Seems the sus trade still has a few eyebrows raised. You can could any spin on it you like to justify it. This only raised its head this season

I dont think the keeper concept would have mattered, The water may run deeper.

Just as a matter of interest who else made an offer for peddles once it was known he was on the table

I know i did, and didnt get a look in. It seemed better than the 1st offer he had accepted. No counter offer forecoming, just totally ignored.

[jayceebee31 671]

We cannot keep changing for the sake of things or we will end up the laughing stock of Ultimate footy or indeed be classified similar to the AFL.

Leave it as it is, call the same draft as this year.

Or do as the AFL does, and leave the lists as is, but make it that all coaches have at least 3 picks. I came from 13th this year , therefore it does not fuss me greatly, if indeed we have to change for the sake of it. However, would hate to bastardise our league, just for change sake.This is another reason to have a commission, get 3 heads together to set the rules to take place. Now, during the bye time would be great.

Last years winner D/land 7 should also make comments revthis matter of drafting as he has seen the top , one year and the bottom next. So, for the longetivity of this league, some very serious thinking needs to take place but note, I would very much like to keep things similar. No downgrading of coaches to another league, I agree with OMR & RR in this instance.

Edited June 4, 2012 by jayceebee31

[robbo24 66]

We have decided on a keepers league. People have traded or held onto injured plays due to this. 4 keepers isn't too many

[JACKATTACK 17]

I have read a lot of opinions here about keeper leagues/relegation, so I want to be clear about a few things in case there is any confusion about what is going on.

Nothing is changing from how I set it all up at the start of the season, there will not be any religation and we are keeping 4 players from this year to go to next year.

This is not to say I wont change it for next year but I think it is important that I remain consistant throughout the season as mid-season rule changes may disadvantage some.

Also mentioned from time to time is the always hot topic of priority picks. On this I will say that priority picks in some form will exist for next year as I hinted at at the start of the year, but I haven't fleshed out the details. It's a difficult one because I am doing really poorly this year and so there is a confilct of interest. I have some ideas but ultimately I think it's best to leave it until at least the end of the year, or the weeks leading up to the draft next year. Then as a group we can all work out what is fair.

As for the perceived problems of the keeper league (trading controversies), I don't see it as a problem so long as both teams involved in the trade can improve their relative positions in regards to their strategies. Last week's JLH/WCN trade didn't represent value for JLH at first and was correctly vetoed. The resulting trade thereafter (Pendlebury for Murphy/Kennedy) did represent value. The system worked.

The reality of the keeper system is that if you want to win a premiership you have to be smart about the way you trade, and you have to be open to the idea of trading long term players for short term success.

[Mad_Melbourne 872]

So every team gets to keep four players?

Or do top teams get to keep less?

Also does this mean trading is on over the summer break?

Just as a matter of interest who else made an offer for peddles once it was known he was on the table

I know i did, and didnt get a look in. It seemed better than the 1st offer he had accepted. No counter offer forecoming, just totally ignored.

Wouldn't have a sniff of any of my trade offers, only got one response and that was ages ago!

Having said that he didn't respond to any of my trade offers early in the season either

Ah well, also broughton in on the trade market if I can get a defender and a midfielder, reasonable trades will be looked at

I don't want Blake robbo

Edited June 4, 2012 by Mad_Melbourne

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

We cannot keep changing for the sake of things or we will end up the laughing stock of Ultimate footy or indeed be classified similar to the AFL.

Leave it as it is, call the same draft as this year.

I don't mean to come at you here JCB. We all love your enthusiasm, but some of the things you say in your last post I have to vehemently disagree with. With all due respect of course. Firstly, in more ways than one, leaving the comp as is is wrong, in my opinion. For two reasons: 1 - As an entity the website is only about 5 years old, and has no real predecessor. We're the beta test in a lot of ways. Not only that but there's no specific set of guidelines for a group of strangers to play this. The fact we've retained any fairness is a credit to all of us. It would be so easy to let the fabric of the comp disappear through cheating. 2 - The comp will probably change a lot before it settles down properly, and part of the joy of it is that all 18 of us get to make of it what we want, in a democratic process. SO MUCH of it is customisable to our strengths and weaknesses as a group of UF players. Dream team doesn't let you alter many things for the fun of it. What if the rules settle for a couple of seasons, and we decide to make it more interesting we add captains? There must ALWAYS be the ability to adapt the system to suit the 18 guys playing it. It belongs to us, after all... I love that we're all able to register complaints. At seasons end they'll be addressed, and we go into another season finding out what we can improve.

This is another reason to have a commission, get 3 heads together to set the rules to take place. Now, during the bye time would be great.

Absolutely 100% disagree with this. JA is the only quasi-authority in this comp, and even that I think is slightly sus. The reason he remains in charge is because he's earned our respect. Personally I hate the [censored].

We make decisions as a group, with JA as the guy who tallies votes. A 3 man commission is, among other things, absurd. I don't think any one coach has more right than any other to make wholesale decisions. And CERTAINLY not mid season.

We have decided on a keepers league. People have traded or held onto injured plays due to this. 4 keepers isn't too many

Yeah. Even if it doesn't last past 2013, the keeper thing has to stay. Some of us would be horribly disadvantaged if we dropped it mid season.

[45HG 1,539]

You are a sad case as you are a looser- you wouldn't know- remember Kevin Sheedy or Malthouse in their prime.You are totally correct, but to me, it is a bit of fun.I, actually have a lot of time and respect in HT, a hell of a lot more than some others.

Stick to tipping JB

The Keeper League idea simply must stay - for the fact that that was what was already in place and that's how people have been playing the game.

I like the idea that you have some longevity with players and the competition as a whole. It certainly wouldn't be fair to change the rules after the tactics some players have adopted IMO.

[Range Rover 1,935]

Again, no-one has really adequately explained why the need for 'keeper' players accept for this strange idea about having "longevity with players". I can't get my head around this. Who cares??

It looks like I'm going to finish near the tail (which is fine ... I accept my failings), but why should I then be penalized by not having a crack at the cream of the crop at the draft for next year? Seems absurd. At the moment I don't have a single player inside the top 50 ranked players yet there are guys sitting at the top of the ladder who in some cases have three of four ... yet they are going to be allowed to keep all of them!? Ridiculous.

The bottom sides from this year should get first dibs at the Abletts, Franklins, Pendleburys, Sandilands etc and this should be done in reverse finishing order or something close to it. Surely this is in the spirit of proper 'handicapping' based on the previous season's results.

Not only that but if there is a Champions League starting next year the top 9 sides (from NS and RF) will be able to enjoy the fruits of that as well.

I think this merits further discussion because if 'fairness measures' (ie. equalization) are not implemented players will lose interest. Indeed the opposite is occurring here - the year's best coaches are being handed a leg up for 2013.

It's well and good to say "well it's too late now because that's what was decided" but the fact is the 'keepers' idea was not thought through properly and is causing problems.

I like this game but will be re-considering my involvement if something is not done about this.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Range Rover