Col Sylvia suspended for Round 1, 2012

[H_T 2,941]

I think the 1 match suspension is heavier than it would normally be because he has to carry it all summer.

Stevie J carried his 5 match suspension for a while too. But he also underwent an education process in the meantime prior to fulfilling suspension.

[daisycutter 28,487]

Think of it in medical terms as an antibiotic effect. You have to zap the good and bad bacteria if you want be totally rid of the infection.

The infection in this case is a shitty culture that has comfortably numbed the club for the better part of 47 years and allowed players like Colin Sylvia to float through careers without ever fulfilling their talent.

So we should fine and game ban players who "float through careers without ever fulfilling their talent"?

This is what I mean about separating "misbehaviour" from "on-field performance". Punishment for "misbehaviour" must address only the "misbehaviour". Once misbehaviour punishment starts to encompass both elements it starts to get quite murky.

It doesn't necessarily follow that punishment for off-field misbehaviour will improve on-field performance.

[beelzebub 22,225]

So you think the response should hurt the club?

Why?

Or would you rather pander to the whims of a selfish psuedo teenager ? ( he behaves like one )

Pretty easy for mine.

The club is way way bigger than any player. Everyone makes out we are zilch without Colin. Most of this is based upon the summised input he miht one day put in.

I fervently hope Neeld has well and truly put this insolent on notice.

[jnrmac 18,953]

Not a strong enough message as far as I'm concerned. There needs to be a statement, but it needs to really hit home. A one match suspension and $5K fine is water off a ducks back. And anyone who thinks a summer of reflection in the meantime for Colin will be a telling effect and turn him around are clutching at straws. As posted above, the comparitive penalty with Stevie J from much admired LG and those in power at GFC really hit the mark for a serial offender in Johnson. Why not take a leaf out of the book from the best ? I would have been inclined to whack him with a 5 match suspension and have him undertake a 50 hour road trauma education. Regardless of him being the 'passenger'. This would have far greater effect for player and club as a whole. I'm not concerned by Sylvia's absence in this case. It's the greater picture which is far more important.

I am not a CS fan and are as frustrated more than most with this player but really your email needs responding to. Would you go through the sanctions you have suggested at your workplace for being a passenger in a car? We all like to think the players are as passionate as we supporters are but the truth is they are not. Does that mean we should get rid of them? I actually think probably if they are a serial offender but when I think about it in my own workplace I would be up in arms if I was treated that way for being a passebnger in a car and technically doing nothing wrong.

And arguments about "they are highly paid and should be grateful for their opportunity" etc are really nothing more than supporter pasion and ignorance about how some players (thankfully not all) view their employment. CS maybe is just is plain dumb.

[beelzebub 22,225]

Jrmac.. you fail to grasp the situation I think.. You place much credence upon the notion he was only the pasenger ina car. The actual trangression was failing to be fit for work...I.e he was p!ssed on the job . Techincally he did much.!! He also showed scant respect for team rules or anyones directives other than his own.. Thats the context.

[rpfc 27,443]

So we should fine and game ban players who "float through careers without ever fulfilling their talent"?

This is what I mean about separating "misbehaviour" from "on-field performance". Punishment for "misbehaviour" must address only the "misbehaviour". Once misbehaviour punishment starts to encompass both elements it starts to get quite murky.

It doesn't necessarily follow that punishment for off-field misbehaviour will improve on-field performance.

Yes, but I would say his lack of professionalism that his off-field behaviour reveals, affects his on-field performance.

[H_T 2,941]

I am not a CS fan and are as frustrated more than most with this player but really your email needs responding to. Would you go through the sanctions you have suggested at your workplace for being a passenger in a car? We all like to think the players are as passionate as we supporters are but the truth is they are not. Does that mean we should get rid of them? I actually think probably if they are a serial offender but when I think about it in my own workplace I would be up in arms if I was treated that way for being a passebnger in a car and technically doing nothing wrong.

'Passenger in a car aside', Colin Sylvia crossed the line for team rules in being out drinking less than 12 hours away from joining the Aust squad for training. He had responsibilities that he couldn't meet because of his own failure to do so. Serial offender. So technically he is in the wrong. Again.

My argument has nothing to do with on field performance, put simply, misbehaviour and failing to adhere to team rules. (Which in effect results in lack of professionalism and getting the best out of himself - as mentioned in previous post when he went to Junior for assistance).

[Retrospective 104]

Well, Geelong missing Stevie J for 5 weeks for his indiscretion hurt the club intially didn't it ? But in the long term the club were better (Ref: stronger leadership values; strong culture) off and so too Stevie J's well being and development.

Your post suggested that the correct sanction should hurt the player and the club.....ie 5k and 1 week is too lenient and doesnt hurt the player or the club.

[H_T 2,941]

Your post suggested that the correct sanction should hurt the player and the club.....ie 5k and 1 week is too lenient and doesnt hurt the player or the club.

That's right. My explanations for the penalty handed down and my suggested penalty are clearly explained above and why the club and player would benefit long term.

Edited November 1, 2011 by H_T

[Retrospective 104]

That's right.

Why would you be looking for the club to punish itself over this?

I reckon CS in general has had some pretty significant lapses in judgement though his career. This just really isn't one of them. Passenger in a car accident when the player is in the "vacation"window is pretty minor.... I think the MFC got it right...needed a message sent that the behaviour isnt up to scratch....... doesn't need a public hanging

[Retrospective 104]

Or would you rather pander to the whims of a selfish psuedo teenager ? ( he behaves like one )

Pretty easy for mine.

The club is way way bigger than any player. Everyone makes out we are zilch without Colin. Most of this is based upon the summised input he miht one day put in.

I fervently hope Neeld has well and truly put this insolent on notice.

read the post BB59......before you get on your high horse..... WHY would you want to punish the CLUB...

H_T suggests that an appropriate punishment should hurt the player and the club......is this a deep belief in the "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" principle?

Edited November 1, 2011 by Retrospective

[H_T 2,941]

That's right. My explanations for the penalty handed down and my suggested penalty are clearly explained above and why the club and player would benefit long term.

Why would you be looking for the club to punish itself over this?

Maybe you missed the edit. I've already outlined why it would benefit the club longterm. Clubs culture and player welfare are at the forefront.

doesn't need a public hanging

This is an assumption more than anything. Was Stevie J publically hanged ?

[beelzebub 22,225]

read the post BB59......before you get on your high horse..... WHY would you want to punish the CLUB...

H_T suggests that an appropriate punishment should hurt the player and the club......is this a deep belief in the "this is going to hurt me more than it hurts you" principle?

You know...strangely I did.. I put it to you youre failing to grasp the overtone. Does it really hurt th eclub to punish Sylvia in an appropriate manner ? If so how so ? Hes all full of talent, hes a real gunna...gunna turn it on one day. Again read what ive written. It really doesnt matter to the club if hes not there in a short term. It WOULD matter if it gave a message to all and sundry that we ( the club ) dont take things like this seriously. It sets a tone. It puts the bar at a certain psotion for al lto see and adhere to. There are far greater gains in doing this in terms of over all team adherence and performance than there is to let one naughty boy get off with a wrist slap.

You propose the idea it hurts the club. I contest that.

[Retrospective 104]

You know...strangely I did.. I put it to you youre failing to grasp the overtone. Does it really hurt th eclub to punish Sylvia in an appropriate manner ? If so how so ? Hes all full of talent, hes a real gunna...gunna turn it on one day. Again read what ive written. It really doesnt matter to the club if hes not there in a short term. It WOULD matter if it gave a message to all and sundry that we ( the club ) dont take things like this seriously. It sets a tone. It puts the bar at a certain psotion for al lto see and adhere to. There are far greater gains in doing this in terms of over all team adherence and performance than there is to let one naughty boy get off with a wrist slap.

You propose the idea it hurts the club. I contest that.

If you pause in your foaming at the mouth at the mention of Sylvia you would see that my question (to H_T not to you) was

1) whether he thought the punishment needed to hurt the club (answer yes)

2) why? Answer (as a subsequent edit) because it will better for the long term.

Everything clear without your help

I did not propose that the sanction hurts the club

Perhaps the fact that you think you can read tone (overtone or otherwise ) on a forum explains some of your responses.

Who is your sponsor... Dennis Denuto lawfirm

"It's just... the vibe... of the thing........."

[daisycutter 28,487]

This is an assumption more than anything. Was Stevie J publically hanged ?

the assumption (yours) seems to be that the StevieJ situation is some kind of panacea to players with behavioural or form issues

it is not. each situation has its own nuances else we would have seen hundreds of StevieJ style situations across the afl clubs

I wish people would stop bringing up StevieJ as if it is some kind of accepted bullet-proof generic solution

[beelzebub 22,225]

I did not propose that the sanction hurts the club

actually you did this very thing when you asked in post 161

read the post BB59......before you get on your high horse..... WHY would you want to punish the CLUB...

You make the correlation that any punishment in the manner handed out to Sylvia by assoication is a punishment to the club.

Do you now contend that punishing Sylvia does not in fact punish the club ?

[hardtack 10,126]

Why would you be looking for the club to punish itself over this?

I reckon CS in general has had some pretty significant lapses in judgement though his career. This just really isn't one of them. Passenger in a car accident when the player is in the "vacation"window is pretty minor.... I think the MFC got it right...needed a message sent that the behaviour isnt up to scratch....... doesn't need a public hanging

Why is it that so many posters here are simply focusing on the fact that he was "just a passenger in a car" (never mind the fact it was HIS car), and conveniently overlooking the fact that he had been drinking the night before a training session as well as being put in a position where he was unable to attend that training session?? Col was representing the MFC as a member of the IR team and as such, apart from letting down his IR team mates and coaches, he has let down the MFC (I agree with you that the punishment fits the crime - just disagree that it was an "off season" occurrence).

I wonder what the comments in such a thread on here would have been like if instead of Col, this had been about Didak or Shaw?

Edited November 2, 2011 by hardtack

[H_T 2,941]

the assumption (yours) seems to be that the StevieJ situation is some kind of panacea to players with behavioural or form issues

it is not. each situation has its own nuances else we would have seen hundreds of StevieJ style situations across the afl clubs

I wish people would stop bringing up StevieJ as if it is some kind of accepted bullet-proof generic solution

For the record dc, I think I'm the only one to have brought up the StevieJ case in this thread, but I'll knock that chip off your shoulder and refrain from bringing it up again. Your wish is granted.

In any case, it's a great example of a club built on great leadership values and strong culture (Ref: Geelong Football Club), and their club was built on great character, through decisive penalties such as I've mentioned, for wayward players (serial offender players) such as Steve Johnson . In turn it has benfited club and the players development and well being. As I stated, why not take a page out of the book from Geelong's stance with it's players - if you're intent on addressing 'culture'.

Each situation does have it's own nuances, but in SJ's and CS's case - they're both serial offenders. Let's not forget the tough stance they took on Stokes as well. Different situation I know, but they made prudent penalties in his case (working away from the club etc, suspension) because they thought of his personal development and well being - made him appreciate what life was about without football and what it was like taken away from him.

I don't see the focus on player development (personal development/player welfare) in Mfc's punishment of Sylvia. A one match suspension is the only 'significant part' in this case.

[Retrospective 104]

actually you did this very thing when you asked in post 161

You make the correlation that any punishment in the manner handed out to Sylvia by assoication is a punishment to the club.

Do you now contend that punishing Sylvia does not in fact punish the club ?

You sir are either a fool (and have problems with comprehension and logic) or a curmudgeon. But given that I've clarified the comments from the poster I'll find something more rewarding to do than correspond with you

[beelzebub 22,225]

You sir are either a fool (and have problems with comprehension and logic) or a curmudgeon. But given that I've clarified the comments from the poster I'll find something more rewarding to do than correspond with you

Am no fool.. there youre own bloody words !! You want to run with hare and hunt with the hounds .

Some of us have been consistent.

Go off and do whatever.. .

[H_T 2,941]

Am no fool.. there youre own bloody words !! You want to run with hare and hunt with the hounds .

Some of us have been consistent.

Go off and do whatever.. .

Retro has asked the question and we've clarified our thoughts, stop blowing hot air BB and take it on face value !

[beelzebub 22,225]

Retro has asked the question and we've clarified our thoughts, stop blowing hot air BB and take it on face value !

excuse me HT was I actually talking with you.. ?

I was simply calling for a clairfication from someone who was answer me. You can see that Im sure.

Its not just about you two I take it.

[daisycutter 28,487]

For the record dc, I think I'm the only one to have brought up the StevieJ case in this thread, but I'll knock that chip off your shoulder and refrain from bringing it up again. Your wish is granted.

Good, a wise decision (and others have brought up SJ but lets move on)

In any case, it's a great example of a club built on great leadership values and strong culture (Ref: Geelong Football Club), and their club was built on great character, through decisive penalties such as I've mentioned, for wayward players (serial offender players) such as Steve Johnson . In turn it has benfited club and the players development and well being. As I stated, why not take a page out of the book from Geelong's stance with it's players - if you're intent on addressing 'culture'.

Each situation does have it's own nuances, but in SJ's and CS's case - they're both serial offenders. Let's not forget the tough stance they took on Stokes as well. Different situation I know, but they made prudent penalties in his case (working away from the club etc, suspension) because they thought of his personal development and well being - made him appreciate what life was about without football and what it was like taken away from him.

Haha! I thought you just said you wouldn't bring it up again.......self control, self control H_T

By all means address culture at all levels and all activities at the club. One statement proves nothing, it takes much much more, and it doesn't have to be just with a stick.

I don't see the focus or player development (personal development/player welfare) in Mfc's punishment of Sylvia.

Thats because it is a punishment for misbehaviour. Hopefully the club has many other avenues for player development(personal development/player welfare) rather than slapping a 6 week ban to maybe (stress maybe) impact on player development as you want.

[Yoda 33]

the assumption (yours) seems to be that the StevieJ situation is some kind of panacea to players with behavioural or form issues

it is not. each situation has its own nuances else we would have seen hundreds of StevieJ style situations across the afl clubs

I wish people would stop bringing up StevieJ as if it is some kind of accepted bullet-proof generic solution

3 flags and a Normy for that player would suggest it was a course of action not without merit.

Perhaps the decision-makers in those 'hundreds of other Steve J style situations across otherAFL clubs' wish, in retrospect, that they had been so bold.

[daisycutter 28,487]

3 flags and a Normy for that player would suggest it was a course of action not without merit.

Perhaps the decision-makers in those 'hundreds of other Steve J style situations across otherAFL clubs' wish, in retrospect, that they had been so bold.

Don't sit on the fence Yoda

Do you think it is a panacea, some kind of accepted bullet-proof generic solution or just a one-off with limited generic applicability?