Black Caviar

[H_T 3,047]

Apparently O'Brien's son, Joseph, who rides SYT, suggested to the old man that the horse be trained to take advantage of his turn of foot, rather than building endurance.

Let's see how that plan has worked.

So You Think - wins. Smart young man is young Joseph.

[Biffen 12,943]

What odds was he HT?-it was way past my bedtime.

[Biffen 12,943]

Just read the interview with A .O'B.

Basically what I said before-he dulled the great Stallions edge .

Any horse that wins 2 Cox plate should be kept at a mile to a mile and a half .

Although he nearly won the Melbourne cup-that was under the immortal Bart Cummings.

How can he take so long to learn train a horse that has already been proved an out and out freak.

Anyway-he admitted his mistakes except for using the word trainers never use (Greed).

He should give him back to Bart for one last run in the Cox before stud.

The stud value is now enormous-although I would like to see him run around for ever and win everything .

[H_T 3,047]

What odds was he HT?-it was way past my bedtime.

Evens last I looked. Won by two lengths.

Have you heard Aiden O'Brien comment since ? Admits that he's been training SYT incorrectly and recently changed to get her zip back. Which supports Tim's post above with young Joseph.

10 Group 1 wins to SYT, not to shabby at all.

[H_T 3,047]

Just read your post. Agree with Bart comments.

[Deers 202]

They have trained horses to race for endurance in the UK / Ireland for hundreds of years.

That such a large organisation like Coolmore didn't thoroughly profile the horse they were acquiring beforehand is just embarrassing.

Breeders' Cup Classic and Dubai World Cup attempts are a prime example of the way big business in the industry robs us of horses properly exercising their reputation.

For insance, you will never see Camelot running into Frankel for the rest of his career, despite the Juddmonte International being an ideal target for the Derby winner.

[H_T 3,047]

Field for Diamond Jubilee Stakes tomorrow night. 12:45am. Distance 1200m.

1 Genki (b2) G Baker $51

2 Hitchens (b3) F Berry $51

3 Jimmy Styles (b9) R Hughes $101

4 Krypton Factor (b4) K Fallon $18

5 Pastoral Player (b10) D Holland $41

6 Royal Rock (b14) T Durcan $51

7 Sirius Prospect (b1) S Kelly $51

8 Society Rock (b13) J Murtagh $13

9 Soul (b8) F Dettori $67

10 The Cheka (b6) T Queally $31

11 Black Caviar (b15) L Nolen $1.18

12 Moonlight Cloud (b5) T Jarnet $7.50

13 Bogart (b12) P Makin $67

14 Es Que Love (b7) S De Sousa $101

15 Restiadargent (b11) M Guyon $67

*Odds - TAB Sportsbet

Unfortunately, no Sepoy which both Biffen and I were looking forward to.

[H_T 3,047]

My selections are 11 from 10, 8

[H_T 3,047]

Wow. Catastrophe averted for Luke Nolen. Don't worry Luke it was only BC's most important run, and only had the weight of the country on your shoulders !

22 from 22. As I remove my heart from my mouth ....

Look left, look right, and look left again Luke. FMD.

[Tim 3,418]

To me, she looked the most highly strung pre-race that I have seen her, and I have seen all but two of her Melbourne efforts. Usually calm and relaxed, today she even kicked out in the parade ring. She just didn't seem to be herself - and she should have been many lengths clear of Soul , for example, in her normal form.

[Whispering_Jack 30,140]

22 from 22. As I remove my heart from my mouth ....

Ah ... 22 from 22 ... that is exactly the dream I have for the Dees one day but they would of course, need to top that off with another three from three in September!

[H_T 3,047]

To me, she looked the most highly strung pre-race that I have seen her, and I have seen all but two of her Melbourne efforts. Usually calm and relaxed, today she even kicked out in the parade ring. She just didn't seem to be herself - and she should have been many lengths clear of Soul , for example, in her normal form.

Good points Tim. She did appear to be throwing her head around in the mounting yard.

Recently announced that she has strained two muscles near her back/rear legs. Might be having a lengthy spell. Will be going into quarantine immediately, and spend a couple of weeks at Werribee Quarantine Centre On return before working out her future.

[DeeVoted 583]

BC got the job done,thats all that matters. As HT stated, Young Luke, overstated 'let the force be with you" came so very close to having a disaster.

Her rating for the race was 113 well down on her rating of 132. Travelling, running out of our season, and 2 blown muscles, she still would have won by 2 lengths, if she was ridden past the post.

I get the feeling, when she gets home and if she makes a full recovery, this spring carnival might be her swansong.

Fully fit, on home turf, I would love a rematch with Moonlight Cloud and / or Society Rock only for the reason to show both they wouldnt get near her when she is fully fit. Cant see either on those 2 travelling over here, both out of their comfort zone,then only to get burnt off. Even if BC didnt run, and both came over for the Spring, and up against Haylist, would put to bed 1 or 2 questions. Bottom line is, she doesnt need to prove anything more now. She came, she saw, she conquered, even when not at her best.

Thank our lucky stars Society Rock missed the start, He gave them all a 2 length start. With BC running injured, the result may well have had a different outcome.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Deevoted

[Chook in Perth 2,109]

Fully fit, on home turf, I would love a rematch with Moonlight Cloud and / or Society Rock only for the reason to show both they wouldnt get near her when she is fully fit. Cant see either on those 2 travelling over here, both out of their comfort zone,then only to get burnt off. Even if BC didnt run, and both came over for the Spring, and up against Haylist, would put to bed 1 or 2 questions.

I think we'd be closer to confirmation that Hay List is the second best sprint horse in the world, and in any other era would be regarded as an all time great. Probably behind Manikato and Vain, comparable with with Placid Ark and Schillaci, but ahead Apache Cat, Miss Andretti and TT of the modern day sprinters that come to mind.

McNair's a very unlucky man to have such a magnificent race horse encounter a once in a century freak.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Chook in Perth

[Whispering_Jack 30,140]

Sportsman and Sportswoman of the Year awards for 2012 go to Michael Clarke and Black Caviar respectively.

Word on the street is that Caro's jealous and reckons she should have won. From the look of her teeth, I would have given her the nod and a couple of carrots to munch on.

[H_T 3,047]

BC got the job done,thats all that matters. As HT stated, Young Luke, overstated 'let the force be with you" came so very close to having a disaster.

Her rating for the race was 113 well down on her rating of 132.

Well BC just chalked up her 23rd straight win in the re-named Black Caviar Lightning Stakes not that long ago. Do we have a rating for that win, Deevoted?

That was her third win in that race, yet her fastest time. Course Record for the distance and smashed the long held record for 1200m at Flemington. Not a bad return....

Second was Moment of Change - who Moody thinks is a star in her own right and a short priced favourite for the Newmarket.

Gerard Whateley may have to start writing another "Black Caviar" book....part II

[The Chazz 4,077]

So, the Mighty Mare goes for #24 tonight at the Valley. No Sepoy's, Frankle's or So You Think's in the race, so it will be a matter of picking the margain.

Have to admit, I can't believe some of what Biffen has written in this thread. At the end of her career, there will be a strong case that she wasn't the GOAT, but I think there will be a stronger argument to suggest that she was.

Sit back tonight and watch Nelly burn up the Valley!

[Biffen 12,943]

So, the Mighty Mare goes for #24 tonight at the Valley. No Sepoy's, Frankle's or So You Think's in the race, so it will be a matter of picking the margain.

Have to admit, I can't believe some of what Biffen has written in this thread. At the end of her career, there will be a strong case that she wasn't the GOAT, but I think there will be a stronger argument to suggest that she was.

Sit back tonight and watch Nelly burn up the Valley!

Believe it . She is a champion of the sprint world, which I've never denied.

I bet I've forgotten more about horses than you'll ever learn.

Why is a horse of her ilk still running around with only 58kgs?

You have no idea if you rate her as the GOAT.

Mares only carry 58kgs in Victorian Racing.

Even Makybe Diva carried only 58kgs in her Third Melbourne Cup.

You and Gerard Whately should get a room.

Last night was a display race.

I rate Carbine as the greatest horse ever.

Most Americans rate Secretariat.

Black Caviar is the greatest sprinting mare of our time, let's just leave it at that and cut the breathless praise of an animal that should be carrying 63kgs against that sort of field , or taking on Frankel.

[Biffen 12,943]

Well BC just chalked up her 23rd straight win in the re-named Black Caviar Lightning Stakes not that long ago. Do we have a rating for that win, Deevoted?

That was her third win in that race, yet her fastest time. Course Record for the distance and smashed the long held record for 1200m at Flemington. Not a bad return....

Well BC just chalked up her 23rd straight win in the re-named Black Caviar Lightning Stakes not that long ago. Do we have a rating for that win, Deevoted?

That was her third win in that race, yet her fastest time. Course Record for the distance and smashed the long held record for 1200m at Flemington. Not a bad return....

Second was Moment of Change - who Moody thinks is a star in her own right and a short priced favourite for the Newmarket.

Gerard Whateley may have to start writing another "Black Caviar" book....part II

Whately is a weirdo .

How would you start the book.

"Some very rich people one day decided to buy the best bred horse in Australia , which they did.Amazingly, the horse won every race it entered against mediocre challengers and only ever carried 58kgs"

It's far from Phar Lap.

But go ahead and write your nose off Gerard.

[H_T 3,047]

The next two races in Sydney will be interesting. It has the real possibility of meeting All too Hard and Snitzerland.

What would you do if you were a significant stake holder in all three horses?

Bugger the unscathed record, I'd race them. BC would still win.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Believe it . She is a champion of the sprint world, which I've never denied.

I bet I've forgotten more about horses than you'll ever learn.

Why is a horse of her ilk still running around with only 58kgs?

You have no idea if you rate her as the GOAT.

Mares only carry 58kgs in Victorian Racing.

Even Makybe Diva carried only 58kgs in her Third Melbourne Cup.

You and Gerard Whately should get a room.

Last night was a display race.

I rate Carbine as the greatest horse ever.

Most Americans rate Secretariat.

Black Caviar is the greatest sprinting mare of our time, let's just leave it at that and cut the breathless praise of an animal that should be carrying 63kgs against that sort of field , or taking on Frankel.

I am amazed that you are questioning my knowledge of horse racing when you have no idea about my personal life.

Black Caviar is the Greatest Sprinter of All Time. It is near impossible to compare her to the likes of Makybe Diva, Kingston Town, Carbine or Phar Lap.

The weight issue, and the comment about weight being able to stop a train is correct. However, given that they are the rules that we have to play within, what can we do about it? BC is big enough to carry 63kg if need be, and I'd be confident that she would still beat any field that she has encountered in Australia. The win in Europe was a different story due to her supposed injuries.

But Biff, I'm not sure what the logic is behind your argument, especially the weight issue. Of course at some stage, you put enough weight on her back and she will be defeated. Wouldn't that rule apply to Carbine, Vain, etc? The idea of handicap conditions is to level the field, not ensure one horse can't win. Which then adds to the Frankel vs Black Caviar argument - if they were to have a match race over 1400m, what weights would the carry? Wouldn't be an unfair advantage to Frankel if thet carried the same? Or would any less weight carried by Black Caviar be an unfair advantage in her favour? But then, why does it have to be run over 1400m? That's not Black Caviar's pet distance. Why does she have to try and run at a distance that isn't where she has made her mark as a true great? Just so Frankle can beat her to try and end the argument? Why not get Frankle to run over 1200m at level weights?

There are so many different scenarios, and there is no 1 correct answer. As it is impossible to prove otherwise, my opinion is what I will believe in, and that is that Nelly is the Greatest Sprinter of All Time. In regards to the Greatest Racehorse of All Time, it's hard for me to think of a better one. There have obviously been some amazing performances and amazing careers. Is she "greater" than Makybe? I wouldn't say she was behind her. "Greater" than Vain? What he achieved was truly remarkable, but how can you say it's better than what BC has achieved? Phar Lap? Again, it's too tough to call.

All the horses that you are comparing her with are special in their own right. I'm honoured to be around to have seen a couple of true greats.

[The Chazz 4,077]

The next two races in Sydney will be interesting. It has the real possibility of meeting All too Hard and Snitzerland.

What would you do if you were a significant stake holder in all three horses?

Bugger the unscathed record, I'd race them. BC would still win.

Easily beats Snitzerland, and I think she has All Too Hard covered but not a huge margain.

If I owned her? Well, she's raced against and embarrassed Australia's best, with Hay List being the only true star sprinter amongst them. She's won on 3 legs in Ascot. Does she have to travel the world again to prove herself? What about the world comes here?

[H_T 3,047]

Easily beats Snitzerland, and I think she has All Too Hard covered but not a huge margain.

If I owned her? Well, she's raced against and embarrassed Australia's best, with Hay List being the only true star sprinter amongst them. She's won on 3 legs in Ascot. Does she have to travel the world again to prove herself? What about the world comes here?

She's done everything a sprinter can do.

But my point was that there's a bloke who has a stake in all three horses. Significant stakes. I guess he would have a significant say if BC would meet All too Hard and Snitzerland.

IMO she (her owners) don't need to protect her record. She's proved herself. Whilst records are made to be broken, some last a long time and I think Black Caviar's record will stand the test of time. I'd say go for it, take them on in Sydney.

[Biffen 12,943]

I am amazed that you are questioning my knowledge of horse racing when you have no idea about my personal life.

Black Caviar is the Greatest Sprinter of All Time. It is near impossible to compare her to the likes of Makybe Diva, Kingston Town, Carbine or Phar Lap.

The weight issue, and the comment about weight being able to stop a train is correct. However, given that they are the rules that we have to play within, what can we do about it? BC is big enough to carry 63kg if need be, and I'd be confident that she would still beat any field that she has encountered in Australia. The win in Europe was a different story due to her supposed injuries.

But Biff, I'm not sure what the logic is behind your argument, especially the weight issue. Of course at some stage, you put enough weight on her back and she will be defeated. Wouldn't that rule apply to Carbine, Vain, etc? The idea of handicap conditions is to level the field, not ensure one horse can't win. Which then adds to the Frankel vs Black Caviar argument - if they were to have a match race over 1400m, what weights would the carry? Wouldn't be an unfair advantage to Frankel if thet carried the same? Or would any less weight carried by Black Caviar be an unfair advantage in her favour? But then, why does it have to be run over 1400m? That's not Black Caviar's pet distance. Why does she have to try and run at a distance that isn't where she has made her mark as a true great? Just so Frankle can beat her to try and end the argument? Why not get Frankle to run over 1200m at level weights?

There are so many different scenarios, and there is no 1 correct answer. As it is impossible to prove otherwise, my opinion is what I will believe in, and that is that Nelly is the Greatest Sprinter of All Time. In regards to the Greatest Racehorse of All Time, it's hard for me to think of a better one. There have obviously been some amazing performances and amazing careers. Is she "greater" than Makybe? I wouldn't say she was behind her. "Greater" than Vain? What he achieved was truly remarkable, but how can you say it's better than what BC has achieved? Phar Lap? Again, it's too tough to call.

All the horses that you are comparing her with are special in their own right. I'm honoured to be around to have seen a couple of true greats.

Sorry Billy if I came across a bit high and mighty but the Weight issue really is a big deal.

To put it into perspective ,Carbine carried 66kgs to victory in a Melbourne Cup field of 39,carrying 24kgs more than the second horse,in record time.

He would race in two GP1s in a day ,injured and win .

He lost a few but he was heavily raced when near fit and broke time records.

His blood can be found in Phar Lap ,Frankel ,Danzig, Sunline, Makybe Diva and just over 60% of cup winners since then.

BC has been very well handled in her career and she is a media darling but dont believe the hype.

She's never beaten much.

Edited March 27, 2013 by Biffen

[H_T 3,047]

Sorry Billy if I came across a bit high and mighty but the Weight issue really is a big deal.

To put it into perspective ,Carbine carried 66kgs to victory in a Melbourne Cup field of 39,carrying 24kgs more than the second horse,in record time.

He would race in two GP1s in a day ,injured and win .

He lost a few but he was heavily raced when near fit and broke time records.

His blood can be found in Phar Lap ,Frankel ,Danzig, Sunline, Makybe Diva and just over 60% of cup winners since then.

BC has been very well handled in her career and she is a media darling but dont believe the hype.

She's never beaten much.

True, she's only beaten all sprinters put in front of her. That's her specialty. She couldn't do what the others in your post have done, because she isn't a stayer or a miler (see Frankel).

Yes, she's been well handled. The hype that exists is her unbeaten record and the records she's broken along the way.