Outside the Box and from Left Field

[beelzebub 23,368]

As we've all been wincing and cringing at some of Melbourne's less efforts over this recent journey a constant has emerged. Or should I possibly suggest contantS !

We're not strong in the guts. By this iM not so much refering to our midfield as I am the middle order ( age wise ) of the team construct. Our older players, the 26 yo onwards brigade arent by any reasonable measure performing or leading as they ought. Its been very much left up to the kids, the 2-3 season players to bring it on. This is all arse about. Not pullitzers I know for that gem.

To echo that tedous catchphrase of ads ago..."Whre do ya get it ?"

Well you can grow it in house. Take a draftee, a kid,.. add weight, games and time on the track and with any luck you'll end up with a decent mature 23 yo with Football ability.

But to grown them you need the seeds and they wil lbe hard to come by in the coming years as the draft looks a bit iffy. Even then we have to wait the prescribed perios for all the "good things" to happen. Yes weve got some coming through and some will turn out quite nicely thankyouvery much. But theres not enough. We need more .

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRREE ??

Yes more. They are out there....and thats the truth ( sorry couldnt resist)

All around in fact; they're called Mature Players

Players who were either looked over at previous drafts, or players who didnt initiall dream to aspire to AFL, or players who simply blossomed late, too late to be looked at bu al lthe scouts.

They're out there, playing every weekend. They're mature in mind, in outlook , and application. Theyre more appreciate of the chances that might come their way. Their work ethic is honed.

They're in all the land's Secondary leagues. Some even more hidden than that.

If Melbourne is to extricate itself from a seeming sentence of mediocre achievement ( possibly somewhat oxymoron in nature ) then it needs to bolster it talent pool with players who are more match ready and less ego-centric that some that currrently make up the list. Melbourne as a club was at the very coal face when it came to looking outside the box and further afield to garner new talent. It needs to continue this lateral thinking and continue to look to 'other' fields for players. However it mightnt have to look quite as far as the other side of the world, there all around us.

Any team needs a workign balance of all types. We lack a big presence with effective mid aged ( for footy ) players. this has to change I would think if were to become seriously competitive.

Too much expectation and responsibility is being weighed upon the sub 23 yo's, far too much !!

Thought s ?

[Guest Thomo]

Every club already looks at the "Secondary leagues" to recurit players from. Howe, Nicolson, Martin, Campbell are proof Melbourne are already doing this..

Edited August 18, 2011 by Thomo

[nutbean 8,838]

Simply yes.

Have a look at West Coast - yes they have some really great kids coming on but the difference to last year is the likes of Cox, Glass, Embley, Nacoski ( yikes -cant be bothered looking up the spelling) and to a lesser extent Kerr ( some injuries) stepping back into good form and leading the way. Even Kennedy at 23 is now stepping into the more mature category.

The great Hawthorn teams in 80's continually had great mature players that ushered in the kids - by the time the kids matured they had the next raft of great kids to learn from the now matured last lot of kids.

We need our best players being our more mature players shouldering the responsibility so the younguns can come on. Unfortunately it is the exact opposite for us.

[Watt and Howe? 16]

I like the way you think; with the likes of barlow and mzungu proving to be good examples. However, how do we know that this isn't already happening? Do you have any players in mind that you think the MFC should look at?

[beelzebub 23,368]

I like the way you think; with the likes of barlow and mzungu proving to be good examples. However, how do we know that this isn't already happening? Do you have any players in mind that you think the MFC should look at?

None specifally. I was amzed no one ever picked up 'gumby ; but that irrelevant in this instance. Maybe the club is doing such but Im not seeing it where it counts..On the field.I think Melbounre like many have been caught up with the draft and accompanying model that the AFL wants.

Id be going back over the lists of those that didnt get a gig from the last 3-4 drafts and see who has possibly kicked on and grown since. They must have been there or abouts but obviously not everyone makes it. Some for obvious reason , just not good enough as we se many who doget drafted as failing in the big time. Conversely some who didnt get a chance, might now .

So much emphasis on mids in recent years. KPP's take longer, so whos to say some havent grown up , honed their craft all in the guise of some 'other' league.

We dont need many of these guys to be 'stars'...just good hones, able, t hard at it players who can bolster the brunt. Preferably able to kick too

[The Chazz 4,077]

The "mature" rookies that have had some impact over the past couple of years have all had quality, established players to play along side of.

We need to get our kids to the "great player" status, then the mature-age rooke will be a good option. We are a minimum of 2 years from that.

[e25 5]

...

Jeremy Howe, Rohan Bail, Austin Wonaeamirri, Stef Martin, Daniel Nicholson, Robbie Campbell...

You're right, we haven't even considered mature age players.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Jeremy Howe, Rohan Bail, Austin Wonaeamirri, Stef Martin, Daniel Nicholson, Robbie Campbell...

You're right, we haven't even considered mature age players.

Your point E25 probably backs up my point. Mature-age rookies that are new to the system still need quality players around them. Something we haven't had.

[beelzebub 23,368]

Jeremy Howe, Rohan Bail, Austin Wonaeamirri, Stef Martin, Daniel Nicholson, Robbie Campbell...

You're right, we haven't even considered mature age players.

Howe is 21, Bail 23..but only 19 i think when taken by us... Aussie,still only 22.18 i think when came to Melb., Stef 24...20 when came to Melb. Nicho only 21.

Campbell is indeed what this topic is about...and older OVER 23 year when looked at. Shame he'l lprobaly not progress as I thought he showed much , not just inability but leadership, just hasnt go on to the paddock yet

Kinda get the idea now E25 ?? hmm

[The Chazz 4,077]

Howe is 21, Bail 23..but only 19 i think when taken by us... Aussie,still only 22.18 i think when came to Melb., Stef 24...20 when came to Melb. Nicho only 21.

Campbell is indeed what this topic is about...and older OVER 23 year when looked at. Shame he'l lprobaly not progress as I thought he showed much , not just inability but leadership, just hasnt go on to the paddock yet

Kinda get the idea now E25 ?? hmm

B59, do you agree on my thoughts regarding the mirage of the mature-aged recruits looking a lot better than they may be due to the fact they are part of quality teams?

Barlow would probably be the only exception, however, he still has Sandilands shoving it down his throat, and Pavlich (superstar) in that team. And, let's face it, if it weren't for injuries this year, Freo would be a Top 6 side.

I'm a sceptic when people talk about the mature-age track. I look at someone like Matthew Bate. If he wasn't a Melbourne-listed player, and was running around at Casey as an "unknown", he would attract a lot of interest, as he is generally a class above the VFL.

[Theo 272]

Tim Mohr - Casey Scorps

Age 22 195cm 98kgs Tall KP Defender. On the radar for GWS? and other Clubs. Very strong and had a very good year. Gotch rates him as the most improved player on the list.

[beelzebub 23,368]

B59, do you agree on my thoughts regarding the mirage of the mature-aged recruits looking a lot better than they may be due to the fact they are part of quality teams?

Barlow would probably be the only exception, however, he still has Sandilands shoving it down his throat, and Pavlich (superstar) in that team. And, let's face it, if it weren't for injuries this year, Freo would be a Top 6 side.

I'm a sceptic when people talk about the mature-age track. I look at someone like Matthew Bate. If he wasn't a Melbourne-listed player, and was running around at Casey as an "unknown", he would attract a lot of interest, as he is generally a class above the VFL.

Billy..hard to disagree in the main as anyone will look bettera mongst qulaity as opposed to younger 'developers'.

Where I suppose Im coming from is Im not so much atttempting to compare what we are as to what say Hawthorn is,as much as what we are currently and what we migh tbe with a few more players withn more years under their belt who are accomnplished , if not brilliant , in amongst our lot of lads. The kids are being asked to lead and I think thats not only an unfair impost its effectively counter productive. The youngest ought to be allowed breathing space to furhter develop and refine. Suddenly they've got the controls and supposedly frlying the plane ( in the absence of the designnated pilots )

I would think come trade time we'd be looking to possibly pick up maybe one or two 23-26 yos if possible but as everyone else probably is also it just strikes me that we will have to again look beyond the obvious. .

Yes weve had success over the years by casting our attention to far off places but maybe there are some not that far away , not physically, just professionally i.e the league they play in.

Youre right regarding thelikes of Bate et al. but I think hes tried and tested. Whos to say there isnt someonle similar but just a tad more able ?..out there...somewhere !

[beelzebub 23,368]

Tim Mohr - Casey Scorps

Age 22 195cm 98kgs Tall KP Defender. On the radar for GWS? and other Clubs. Very strong and had a very good year. Gotch rates him as the most improved player on the list.

of course.. and hes been mentioned in despatches ... I think a few clubs have their eyes on Tim. But exactly the type i refer to. There are similar in other positions ( playing )

[rpfc 28,410]

Tim Mohr - Casey Scorps

Age 22 195cm 98kgs Tall KP Defender. On the radar for GWS? and other Clubs. Very strong and had a very good year. Gotch rates him as the most improved player on the list.

Not old enough, apparently.

[Striker475 696]

Mature age, you mean Liam Jurrah right?

Mature age is only useful in a couple of cases to fill a specific role. See Nick Duigan, JPod. These are sides challenging for top 4/premiership status, not up and coming and bulging with youth. Mzungu, too, Freo are pushing for top4 but they aren't doing as well as they thought.

I understand your point, but I think it's only really handy for those sides who need a hole filled.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Absoluttely agree with you. I was talking about mature aged.. over 23 year olds..and you offered up a whole sting ( bar one ) of something else.

well done.

of course.. and hes been mentioned in despatches ... I think a few clubs have their eyes on Tim. But exactly the type i refer to. There are similar in other positions ( playing )

Not old enough, apparently.

Ouch! I think even you B59 need to admit you f**ked this one up!

Edited August 18, 2011 by billy2803

[H_T 3,046]

Every club already looks at the "Secondary leagues" to recurit players from. Howe, Nicolson, Martin, Campbell are proof Melbourne are already doing this..

Correct Thomo.

edit:

Zing ! billy.

Could probably add Jurrah to the list.

[beelzebub 23,368]

Ouch! I think even you B59 need to admit you f**ked this one up!

Tim Mohr wil lbe 23 come end of season this year and would take to a field as a 23 yo next year ...doesnt he ?

[mfcrox 143]

Brendan Fevola - Casey Scorpions

Age 30, 190cm 104kgs (?) KP Forward.

On the radar for GWS? Other Clubs? Very strong and quick on the lead. Long accurate kick. 4th in VFL goal-kicking (47), and 2nd in average goals per game for anyone playing 10 or more games (3.62 from 13 games) despite having NO pre-season whatsoever. He is a 2x winner of some award called the 'Coleman Medal' in some previous league he played, and is listed as a 3x 'All Australian', whatever that means. Also listed as leading goal-kicker for some club called Carlton during seasons 2003-2009. Anyone heard much about him?

Seems to fit the bill of exactly the type of player we need right now... fill a void whilst Cook and Fitzpatrick develop at Casey.

[mfcrox 143]

Now... If I had said 'Joe Blogg - Casey Scorpions', and listed those accolades with no other known history to that player, most of you would say 'A bit old, but could be worth a punt whilst others develop'. However, because his name is Brendan Fevola, it's 'NO NO... WE ARE MELBOURNE... WE CAN'T TAKE A RISK LIKE THAT'.

Shame really.

[e25 5]

Now... If I had said 'Joe Blogg - Casey Scorpions', and listed those accolades with no other known history to that player, most of you would say 'A bit old, but could be worth a punt whilst others develop'. However, because his name is Brendan Fevola, it's 'NO NO... WE ARE MELBOURNE... WE CAN'T TAKE A RISK LIKE THAT'.

Shame really.

That's right - we want to get this right, the right way.

Not through high risk / reward shortcuts.

And that's the biggest problem - for the enormous risk you'd be taking on Fevola, the reward is minuscule.

2 years of an ageing FF dominating space and clogging up the forward line, preventing our tall kids from developing there (when they are ready, which will be soon). All while we're not quite challenging for a flag. Then when we're ready, he'll be cactus.

Notice how it took Carlton a year or so after Fev left for their forward line to adapt to life without him?

We'd need a similar transition period to make it work. It's taking a year off our window.

And the potential damage he could cause, if he was to prove he hasn't changed..?

We wouldn't be attracting any other big names, with moves like that.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Tim Mohr wil lbe 23 come end of season this year and would take to a field as a 23 yo next year ...doesnt he ?

Ahh, so that's why noone has picked him up before now, it's because he is only turning 23 at the end of this season. Now it makes sense why he has been running around down at Casey for all this time. Perhaps we should make it a condition of the draft that only aged 23 or over can nominate, that should win us a flag.

Until we have a team that has a few A-graders running around, I don't think there is any point adding ANOTHER player to that "We dont need many of these guys to be 'stars'...just good honest, able, hard at it players who can bolster the brunt" list. We have more than enough that play that role, that's why we're miles away from being a top side.

[beelzebub 23,368]

Ahh, so that's why noone has picked him up before now, it's because he is only turning 23 at the end of this season. Now it makes sense why he has been running around down at Casey for all this time. Perhaps we should make it a condition of the draft that only aged 23 or over can nominate, that should win us a flag.

Until we have a team that has a few A-graders running around, I don't think there is any point adding ANOTHER player to that "We dont need many of these guys to be 'stars'...just good honest, able, hard at it players who can bolster the brunt" list. We have more than enough that play that role, that's why we're miles away from being a top side.

if you wanted to look like a fool youve totally succeeded. What on erth are you diorheaing about.

The whole premise of much of this is that some players have been overlooked...or indeed not even looked at before.

You re taking it totally out of context.. maybe thats your way. I dont suppose it was but im wrong

Thankyou for your imput...it puts everyones else into context thankyou

[Whispering_Jack 30,073]

Tim Mohr - Casey Scorps

Age 22 195cm 98kgs Tall KP Defender. On the radar for GWS? and other Clubs. Very strong and had a very good year. Gotch rates him as the most improved player on the list.

No doubt, the reason why GWS List Manager Stephen Silvagni was out at Coburg last weekend. Either that or he's developed a liking for kebabs out there in Blacktown and stopped by at the Coburg ground after feasting on the magnificent middle eastern fare in Sydney Road

[The Chazz 4,077]

if you wanted to look like a fool youve totally succeeded. What on erth are you diorheaing about.

The whole premise of much of this is that some players have been overlooked...or indeed not even looked at before.

You re taking it totally out of context.. maybe thats your way. I dont suppose it was but im wrong

Thankyou for your imput...it puts everyones else into context thankyou

I ask that same question about most of your posts B59.

You made an error in one of your posts, but yet instead of admitting it, you twist things around to try and make you look less of a fool. It is ok to admit you are wrong B59, it happens to the best of us.

My input regarding your OP is in regards to the state of our list at the moment, and how much impact recruiting mature-aged, untried players will have. I have stated that there are minimal (if any) that have been picked up in bad sides and made an immediate impact. There seems to be a common trend that in the better sides with quality players around them, yes, they do play their role well. Sadly, Melbourne don't have the quality cattle around for me to consider this recruitment path in the immediate future, based on my opinion of the mature-aged draftees.

And for the record, I don't think your thread title is really that ground-breaking. I'm sure we have had many topics, generally in the off-season, where the mature-age draftees were discussed.

Your thread title is about 12 months too late, but the idea of recruiting 23+ year olds from other sources is about 2 years too early in our situation.