It's The Midfield Stupid!

[daisycutter 29,429]

Don't where your head is at, DC...

Neither do I most of the time, and my wife certainly agrees with you.

[rpfc 28,071]

The concerns some supporters have had with Bailey was that the team was disorganised and didn't cope well against the press and haven't provided any frontal pressure themselves, which is understandable in the light of Viney's comments preseason. Also, Bailey coached teams lack consistent effort.

This is my major concern with Bailey as well (that and his/mahoney's inability to get their idiot forwards to do a decent press), but it is difficult to say whether it is his inability to instil a desire for consistency in the group or whether it is the combination of having weak-minded, frontrunning, NQR senior players and kids dominating the team over his journey as a coach.

We will see over the next three months as the line-up settles and has more class and leadership (from Scully, Trengove, Frawley, McKenzie, et al stepping up).

[Hannabal 4]

Which is why I'm really surprised people didn't catch on.

Show me where I've said he is a "really good coach".

You didn't get tumbleweeds, you got nothing.

Yes, I know. As was noted by a fellow poster "the silence was deafening".

And who didn't "catch on" ?

Why should a club commit to a coach for 5+ years if they don't think, or even know if he's a "really good coach" ? If I was contemplating appointing a coach for that length of tenure that would be a (one of) base parameter.

At least you admit that he's not a really good coach. I agree with you.

[rpfc 28,071]

Or/and a decimated midfield??

I am talking about the players that have played and their effort.

Davey, Moloney, Green, Rivers, and Sylvia have not been consistent in their effort this year (not to mention other 'senior' players - Bate, Dunn, Warnock, and Newton). Moloney may have 12 brownlow votes to his name at this stage but he still has 15 possession games.

Injuries take their toll, but we still had the most inexperienced side EVER last week and put in a great effort.

Injuries don't excuse effort.

Edited June 6, 2011 by rpfc

[timD 994]

Do you really think that you have come up with any startling revelations ? Games have been won in the midfield for over 100 years.

The concerns some supporters have had with Bailey was that the team was disorganised and didn't cope well against the press and haven't provided any frontal pressure themselves, which is understandable in the light of Viney's comments preseason. Also, Bailey coached teams lack consistent effort.

I'll cop a loss if the players have a crack. I'll blame the pertinent players if they don't have a crack, but I'll also lay much of the blame at the feet of the coach if he can't get consistent efforts from his group.

The ball is in his court and he'll be judged accordingly at the end of the year. What's the bet that he doesn't start a game with a loose man in defence for the rest of the year ?

I've asked you before why you reckon that Bailey is a really good coach. All I got was tumbleweeds.

You hang on to the Viney quote like a drowning man holds a life-preserver.

Maybe you need to re-read it. Maybe even several times. Viney didn't say that no time had gone into the plan. He didn't say that insufficient time went in to the plan...he didn't say that parts of the plan were absent or missing.

Bailey is trying to change the whole team. Now, to judge his coaching adequacy, you need to compare his performance to reasonable criteria. Is he turning over the list? Is he developing new players? Is he developing/improving older players? IS the game plan taking shape (and what should it look like, given the massive turnover of players)? What shape should the game plan be in given that its implementation relies on kids and an older group that has never demonstrated consistent application?

Given you think that Bailey is too poor a coach to continue at the club, why don't you spell out why. As you have stated repeatedly that the forward press takes time to learn, maybe you could spell out the time the Bailey has had with this group of players to teach and implement it? If it takes 2 years to learn, then what time has Bailey had, with the group that we've been aiming to have, to actually teach it and have it learnt?

Don't spare the detail.

Oh, you can leave the "don't question me, I've written books about footy" stuff unsaid.

[H_T 3,036]

{Don't mind me...just reminiscing when Geelong and Collingwood were frustratingly inconsistent with their young crop of kids before they matured...maybe not as inconsistent given their senior core of players who were contributing on a more consistent basis}

[Hannabal 4]

You hang on to the Viney quote like a drowning man holds a life-preserver.

Maybe you need to re-read it. Maybe even several times. Viney didn't say that no time had gone into the plan. He didn't say that insufficient time went in to the plan...he didn't say that parts of the plan were absent or missing.

Given you think that Bailey is too poor a coach to continue at the club, why don't you spell out why.

You're becoming a cyber stalker, Timbo. I'm the light and you're one of the moths.

I know what Viney said and I'm saying that not enough time went into the gameplan preseason. Please yourself what you think.

I've also outlined my concerns about Bailey. That said, there's plenty that he's done in which I agree. He cleaned out the dead wood, he's played youth, and he's handled himself remarkably well through the course of having 3 CEO's, two Presidents, and two Boards. You'll note that in his first 3 years I never called for his head.

In his 4th year I believe he was slow to catch on to modern trends in footy, such as the forward press and applying frontal pressure; he hasn't played enough man-on-man footy, which is still the cornerstone of good teams; his teams haven't had consistency of effort; and I believe he's focussed too much on an attacking gameplan and not enough on a defensive one.

Is it not reasonable that in a coach's 4th and last year of a contract to show why he deserves another crack ? If you asked just about any person on the planet whether Dean Bailey is a good coach, or not, the answer would be "I don't know".

Well, he's running out of time to show one way or another. If that question can't be answered by round 22, or whenever our season ends then I don't believe he should be recontracted. The ball is in his court. Should those that question him have to prove that he's not the right person to take the club forward, or should the onus be on Bailey to show why he is ?

------------------------------------------

On a side note, can players love their coach too much ? I'm interested in people's views. The players seem to love Dean a little too much for my liking, but I accept that I'm not a Gen Y type of guy.

Seeing Bailey give Davey a cuddle at the 3/4 time huddle after he squibbed it, didn't do it for me. I might be out of touch (how do I know that that comment will be copied and pasted ? ), but for me that's not how to handle that type of moment. How about looking the player in the eye and telling them that that type of effort, or lack thereof won't be tolerated at the MFC ? I wonder how Norm Smith would have reacted. Yes, yes, I know, things are done differently these days.

[Hannabal 4]

You've misquoted, or selectively quoted me a lot lately which is pathetic.

Where have I said he isn't a really good coach?

So sorry. When people don't answer it's usually because they can't, or they're in agreement.

Where have I selectively quoted you a lot lately ?

[dee-luded 2,959]

BUMP

It is amazing the difference in cohesion between a depleted midfield and a much strengthened quality midfield with some class.

Enter Tom Scully for his first game, Jack Trengove from a 3 match suspension, a fitter Jordie McKenzie, an improved Jordan Gysberts. In addition with the 'midfield veterans' in Jones, Sylvia & Moloney and all of the sudden we see a big improvement. Green can then be utilised a bit up forward with a tall ruck, Jurrah and first gamer Howe can cause the opposition coach to get ulcers and the critics can eat 'some' words. Our team all of the sudden regains much better structure up forward on the back of more contested possessions, and a higher tackle rate. (McKenzie = 13 tackles - missed you Jordie!).

As Leigh Matthews informed all - more often than not the two main KPI's they often use in today's game, if you have more tackles and more contested possessions, invariably you end up winning the game. Very rarely do you lose a game when you come out on top in those two stats.

With the Bombers missing Hocking & Watson through the middle and our returns of our quality picks....I thank TAB for offering $4.20.

Beauty!

And a Bonny Voyagey to the 1 dimensional 'Outside player' !

[The Chazz 4,077]

You're becoming a cyber stalker, Timbo. I'm the light and you're one of the moths.

I know what Viney said and I'm saying that not enough time went into the gameplan preseason. Please yourself what you think.

I've also outlined my concerns about Bailey. That said, there's plenty that he's done in which I agree. He cleaned out the dead wood, he's played youth, and he's handled himself remarkably well through the course of having 3 CEO's, two Presidents, and two Boards. You'll note that in his first 3 years I never called for his head.

In his 4th year I believe he was slow to catch on to modern trends in footy, such as the forward press and applying frontal pressure; he hasn't played enough man-on-man footy, which is still the cornerstone of good teams; his teams haven't had consistency of effort; and I believe he's focussed too much on an attacking gameplan and not enough on a defensive one.

Is it not reasonable that in a coach's 4th and last year of a contract to show why he deserves another crack ? If you asked just about any person on the planet whether Dean Bailey is a good coach, or not, the answer would be "I don't know".

Well, he's running out of time to show one way or another. If that question can't be answered by round 22, or whenever our season ends then I don't believe he should be recontracted. The ball is in his court. Should those that question him have to prove that he's not the right person to take the club forward, or should the onus be on Bailey to show why he is ?

------------------------------------------

On a side note, can players love their coach too much ? I'm interested in people's views. The players seem to love Dean a little too much for my liking, but I accept that I'm not a Gen Y type of guy.

Seeing Bailey give Davey a cuddle at the 3/4 time huddle after he squibbed it, didn't do it for me. I might be out of touch (how do I know that that comment will be copied and pasted ? ), but for me that's not how to handle that type of moment. How about looking the player in the eye and telling them that that type of effort, or lack thereof won't be tolerated at the MFC ? I wonder how Norm Smith would have reacted. Yes, yes, I know, things are done differently these days.

At what stage were you in between Bailey and Davey to know what was said? I'm sure if DB put his arm around Flash and said only 1 word, "unacceptable", that would have had just as big of an impact as going off in front of the playing group.

Anyway, the biggest question I have is in regards to the way "modern football" is played, and the fact that so many think that Bailey's team aren't playing that style. My question is, "What will modern football look like in 2014"? Will it still involve this forward press? Did Collingwood play the modern football in 2007/2008/2009? I don't think they did considering Geelong's style was "modern football". It wasn't until last year that Collingwood had success with their game plan, and now it's what every other team wants to play, which has given it this modern football tag.

Do I think Bailey has proven that he is a good coach, good enough to take this team to a premiership? I honestly believe so. I think the similarities between us and Geelong are frightening. The early Bomber Thompson years and the early Dean Bailey years are very similar. The way the team is developing, the results that we are achieving, albeit inconsistent this year, are almost a carbon copy of the Geelong team 2 years before their premiership.

Then I have to look at the game plan to give me more evidence to use. Our losses, well, there are a number of issues when these occur, which of course Dean Bailey has to have some responsibility for. The issue I have is most of our losses is pressure and hardness. The players have it, so why don't they do it on a regular basis? Is Bailey incompetent in getting them up for every game, rather than just certain ones? I think the rest of this season will possibly answer this question. The players skill errors are things that I'm not so sure if you can question Bailey's ability over. We've seen what they can do when the skills are high, is that inconsistency a coach issue or a player issue? One thing is for sure, it's definitely a coach killer.

But then, you need to take a look at our wins. Generally speaking, when we beat a team, we smash them. Why? Admittingly it's against interstate teams, but why do we [censored] the crap out of them? Is it the fact that the game plan is finally being played how it should?

In closing, I don't think anyone in here can honestly say if Dean Bailey is a potential premiership coach. We aren't seeing the success and consistentcy that we'd expect, or is it that our expectations are just too high at this stage in our development? The last couple of powerhouses (Collingwood and Geelong) didn't happen over night. They both took a good 4 or 5 years of inconsistent results until it started happening. They also didn't come from as far back as what we did. As it has been pointed out before, the midfield is a vital part of success, and the "midfield that Dean built" has only played 2 games together as a unit.

[rpfc 28,071]

Seeing Bailey give Davey a cuddle at the 3/4 time huddle after he squibbed it, didn't do it for me. I might be out of touch (how do I know that that comment will be copied and pasted ? ), but for me that's not how to handle that type of moment. How about looking the player in the eye and telling them that that type of effort, or lack thereof won't be tolerated at the MFC ? I wonder how Norm Smith would have reacted. Yes, yes, I know, things are done differently these days.

This has been mentioned a bit in the media but they say "a Melbourne official."

I thought it was Royal and it was a grab around the waist rev up from what I could see.

Whatever the intention, I don't think you can read as much as you read into that.

[H_T 3,036]

Yes. Brian Royal.

[Guest 36DD]

On a side note, can players love their coach too much ? I'm interested in people's views. The players seem to love Dean a little too much for my liking, but I accept that I'm not a Gen Y type of guy.

Seeing Bailey give Davey a cuddle at the 3/4 time huddle after he squibbed it, didn't do it for me. I might be out of touch (how do I know that that comment will be copied and pasted ? ), but for me that's not how to handle that type of moment. How about looking the player in the eye and telling them that that type of effort, or lack thereof won't be tolerated at the MFC ? I wonder how Norm Smith would have reacted. Yes, yes, I know, things are done differently these days.

Pretty sure it was Brian Royal our backline coach who gave Davey a cuddle after the squib St Kilda effort.

Geez couple of weeks ago Bailey had lost the players and they weren't playing for him now they love him 2 much.

I really have to stop reading this crap.

[Goodvibes 3,596]

The concerns some supporters have had with Bailey was that the team was disorganised and didn't cope well against the press and haven't provided any frontal pressure themselves, which is understandable in the light of Viney's comments preseason. Also, Bailey coached teams lack consistent effort.

The same could be said of the Bulldogs this year. Is Eade a bad coach? I thought you belonged with the chorus of Melbourne supporters who felt they couldn't really judge Bailey until this year. Half way through the season we've established that your concerns above are valid but surely the consistency issue can be explained by age, experience and the level of injuries we've had. I was concerned by our form prior to injuries too but 3 or 4 games is too small a sample to judge our coach on. What would Bailey need to do over the second half of the year for you to give him an extension? We're usually patient when it comes to young players improving maybe we should show our coach the same level of patience. Coaches can change and improve too. I too think you've placed far too much emphasis on Viney's quote regarding tactical training earlier in the year. Call me a stalker but it's your number 1 goto when you're having a crack at Bailey. We've had reports from pre-season training suggesting work was done on implementing and playing against a forward press. It took Clarkson three years to implement his premiership-winning zone.

PS sorry about your Dreamteam performance this week. Chin up!

Edited June 6, 2011 by Goodvibes

[daisycutter 29,429]

At what stage were you in between Bailey and Davey to know what was said? I'm sure if DB put his arm around Flash and said only 1 word, "unacceptable", that would have had just as big of an impact as going off in front of the playing group.

Anyway, the biggest question I have is in regards to the way "modern football" is played, and the fact that so many think that Bailey's team aren't playing that style. My question is, "What will modern football look like in 2014"? Will it still involve this forward press? Did Collingwood play the modern football in 2007/2008/2009? I don't think they did considering Geelong's style was "modern football". It wasn't until last year that Collingwood had success with their game plan, and now it's what every other team wants to play, which has given it this modern football tag.

Do I think Bailey has proven that he is a good coach, good enough to take this team to a premiership? I honestly believe so. I think the similarities between us and Geelong are frightening. The early Bomber Thompson years and the early Dean Bailey years are very similar. The way the team is developing, the results that we are achieving, albeit inconsistent this year, are almost a carbon copy of the Geelong team 2 years before their premiership.

Then I have to look at the game plan to give me more evidence to use. Our losses, well, there are a number of issues when these occur, which of course Dean Bailey has to have some responsibility for. The issue I have is most of our losses is pressure and hardness. The players have it, so why don't they do it on a regular basis? Is Bailey incompetent in getting them up for every game, rather than just certain ones? I think the rest of this season will possibly answer this question. The players skill errors are things that I'm not so sure if you can question Bailey's ability over. We've seen what they can do when the skills are high, is that inconsistency a coach issue or a player issue? One thing is for sure, it's definitely a coach killer.

But then, you need to take a look at our wins. Generally speaking, when we beat a team, we smash them. Why? Admittingly it's against interstate teams, but why do we [censored] the crap out of them? Is it the fact that the game plan is finally being played how it should?

In closing, I don't think anyone in here can honestly say if Dean Bailey is a potential premiership coach. We aren't seeing the success and consistentcy that we'd expect, or is it that our expectations are just too high at this stage in our development? The last couple of powerhouses (Collingwood and Geelong) didn't happen over night. They both took a good 4 or 5 years of inconsistent results until it started happening. They also didn't come from as far back as what we did. As it has been pointed out before, the midfield is a vital part of success, and the "midfield that Dean built" has only played 2 games together as a unit.

You're starting to gush too much Billy

No need to get ahead of yourself - be patient

There are good signs but lets wait a little bit before getting carried away.

Wouldn't want to accuse you of MFCFS - there's enough of them around

[The Chazz 4,077]

You're starting to gush too much Billy

No need to get ahead of yourself - be patient

There are good signs but lets wait a little bit before getting carried away.

Wouldn't want to accuse you of MFCFS - there's enough of them around

Gush too much? What are you talking about? What part am I getting ahead of myself?

The main point in my post was regarding this talk about us not playing modern football. I'm asking if in 2-3 years time, maybe it is us that is playing modern football and that other teams will be trying to copy us. It's a thought that not many have, but it's hardly getting ahead of myself?

I also commented on the fact that I think Bailey is still the right man for the job. I have thought this way since his arrival, and there were clear signs on Friday night that he does have what it takes (which most importantly is a game plan that can win matches, as well as the respect from his players).

Still, if it makes you feel better posting what you did, I'm happy for you to do it at my expense. I can assure you one thing, I don't get ahead of myself when this football club is concerned.

[old55 22,975]

There's insufficient evidence for us to draw a conclusion on a Bailey flag. The fact is Bailey can't prove he can do it until he does it - he can provide indicators but good judges like Hannabal and Billy are interpreting the same indicators in opposite ways. The club has control in the Bailey decision and most people are saying we should wait and see - funny about that eh? In the end we'll have to make a decision and it will probably be without a whole lot more definitive information. Therefore I reckon a factor is who you think the replacement could be - if it's Malthouse or Roos that's a different story from say Sanderson or L.Cameron and different again from Eade or Laidley.

Edited June 6, 2011 by old55

[daisycutter 29,429]

Gush too much? What are you talking about? What part am I getting ahead of myself?

This

.........

Do I think Bailey has proven that he is a good coach, good enough to take this team to a premiership? I honestly believe so. I think the similarities between us and Geelong are frightening. The early Bomber Thompson years and the early Dean Bailey years are very similar. The way the team is developing, the results that we are achieving, albeit inconsistent this year, are almost a carbon copy of the Geelong team 2 years before their premiership.

.......

And the following contradicts what you assert above

....

In closing, I don't think anyone in here can honestly say if Dean Bailey is a potential premiership coach.

....

[The Chazz 4,077]

This

And the following contradicts what you assert above

In terms of the gushing, all I'm doing is looking at the trends DC. The road we are travelling, and the point that we are currently at is very similar (almost exactly the same) as Geelong in their path to glory. This isn't getting ahead of myself, this is just stating a fact. However, there's stats out there that can support any arguement. But what it is also showing people is that there will be a lot of ups and downs along the way. Hopefully our final destination is the same as those that I'm comparing to.

I understand the contradiction call. What I was trying to say is that while people are saying Bailey isn't a premership coach, they have just as much to go on as those who say he can be. Everyone has an opinion, but in reality, no-one bloody knows! Until either a) he wins one, or b ) he gets sacked/contract not extended, the answer will remain unknown!

[rpfc 28,071]

Geez couple of weeks ago Bailey had lost the players and they weren't playing for him now they love him 2 much.

It's amazing how we can go one extreme to the other...

[rpfc 28,071]

There's insufficient evidence for us to draw a conclusion on a Bailey flag. The fact is Bailey can't prove he can do it until he does it - he can provide indicators but good judges like Hannabal and Billy are interpreting the same indicators in opposite ways. The club has control in the Bailey decision and most people are saying we should wait and see - funny about that eh? In the end we'll have to make a decision and it will probably be without a whole lot more definitive information. Therefore I reckon a factor is who you think the replacement could be - if it's Malthouse or Roos that's a different story from say Sanderson or L.Cameron and different again from Eade or Laidley.

Very interesting points.

The last one is a pearler: if we can get Malthouse then Bailey has a higher threshold to get a contract (probably an unreachable one), but if Roos and Malthouse say 'no' then suddenly the threshold is easier for Bailey to get to.

[The Chazz 4,077]

There's insufficient evidence for us to draw a conclusion on a Bailey flag. The fact is Bailey can't prove he can do it until he does it - he can provide indicators but good judges like Hannabal and Billy are interpreting the same indicators in opposite ways. The club has control in the Bailey decision and most people are saying we should wait and see - funny about that eh? In the end we'll have to make a decision and it will probably be without a whole lot more definitive information. Therefore I reckon a factor is who you think the replacement could be - if it's Malthouse or Roos that's a different story from say Sanderson or L.Cameron and different again from Eade or Laidley.

I would really love to know what the KPI's are that Bailey has to receive an extension. So far, it appears that everything he has said he has achieved, and also everything that the Club has told us we have done.

At the risk of being shot down, not that it phases me, what about another name that hasn't been mentioned...Denis Pagan? Firstly, it's nowhere near as stupid suggestion as Dean Laidley, plus, he won 2 premierships at North, took over at Carlton when they were in a similar state to us when Bailey took over, with the main difference that Carlton couldn't handle how long they had to bottom out for and in the end gave him the a$$. He is still involved in coaching - is in charge at the Northern Knights. He was a very tough coach, had a very good record (think he's around the 62% mark, even after 3 years at Carlton).

Just throwing it out there!

[daisycutter 29,429]

In terms of the gushing, all I'm doing is looking at the trends DC. The road we are travelling, and the point that we are currently at is very similar (almost exactly the same) as Geelong in their path to glory. This isn't getting ahead of myself, this is just stating a fact. However, there's stats out there that can support any arguement. But what it is also showing people is that there will be a lot of ups and downs along the way. Hopefully our final destination is the same as those that I'm comparing to.

I understand the contradiction call. What I was trying to say is that while people are saying Bailey isn't a premership coach, they have just as much to go on as those who say he can be. Everyone has an opinion, but in reality, no-one bloody knows! Until either a) he wins one, or b ) he gets sacked/contract not extended, the answer will remain unknown!

But it is getting ahead of yourself. If you keep digging like this you can probably find tons of other similarities with successful clubs at some stage in their development. Means nothing, except feeds the fantasy ego.

Winning premierships is bloody bloody difficult and we have an awful long way to go and if we get even a sniff it will be contingent on so many variables (including luck).

I don't know if we are on the right (premiership) path or not (I effing well hope and wish so). All I know at this stage is we have a very promising set of youngsters and a revitalised club but it is such a long climb ahead that I wouldn't make any predictions about being on the right path probably until sometime in the 2013 season.

I'm optimistic about the future and enjoying the ride (mostly) but I'm not fantasizing yet

[The Chazz 4,077]

But it is getting ahead of yourself. If you keep digging like this you can probably find tons of other similarities with successful clubs at some stage in their development. Means nothing, except feeds the fantasy ego.

Winning premierships is bloody bloody difficult and we have an awful long way to go and if we get even a sniff it will be contingent on so many variables (including luck).

I don't know if we are on the right (premiership) path or not (I effing well hope and wish so). All I know at this stage is we have a very promising set of youngsters and a revitalised club but it is such a long climb ahead that I wouldn't make any predictions about being on the right path probably until sometime in the 2013 season.

I'm optimistic about the future and enjoying the ride (mostly) but I'm not fantasizing yet

No worries DC, I'll make sure I delete my line that said "we will win premierships like Geelong", and replace it with "We are ticking similar boxes to Geelong when the were developing, but it remains to be seen if we can achieve the heights that they did".

Would that be less getting ahead of myself?

Bugger, I can't find where I said we will win premierships. I can see where I said I think we can, but you're right, they are very hard to win. Silly me for gushing all over the place.

[Hannabal 4]

Pretty sure it was Brian Royal our backline coach who gave Davey a cuddle after the squib St Kilda effort.

Geez couple of weeks ago Bailey had lost the players and they weren't playing for him now they love him 2 much.

I really have to stop reading this crap.

You may as well stop reading as you certainly don't contribute anything meaningful.

Where have I ever said that Bailey "has lost the players" ?