Perhaps a list of all pick 10s, 11s, and 12s since 95 would be more appropriate,.... ooooops wait there I go again, trying to put up evidence to support an argument.

I think you're on the right track and that would be more meaningful.

And this one is a picture of quality and insight.

If you have a problem with the sample, do some research of your own and come up with an alternative. Or do you just base your estimations of the relative quality of pick 11 on your gut feeling?

Perhaps a list of all pick 10s, 11s, and 12s since 95 would be more appropriate,.... ooooops wait there I go again, trying to put up evidence to support an argument.

the problem is there is not enough drafts to get a meaningful representation of how valuable certain pick in the draft is, 20 is a laughable sample size. 20 isn't even correct because of the changes of the system in the past, and how much work goes into drafting now compared to 10 or 20 years ago. Not to mention this draft has players removed etc. there are just two many variables to be able to look on past years and say this draft is worth exactly the value of 70% of lenny hayes+shaun higgins - beau waters. posting this and saying name the players better than brock, divide by 22 and you get the percentage chance of getting a player better than brock is just plain retarded. EVEN if it were correct a player that is 3/4 of the player that brock is that plays a role we don't already have filled would be better for our team.

yes it is evidence (and the only evidence that we have), but that doesn't mean it's USEFUL or MEANINGFUL evidence

McLean is only 23. to say this is part of a rebuild is rediculous. he's at the right age. injuries have slowed him the last few years and it's going to be very painful to see him tear it up fully fit in another jumper, especially a navy blue one. i have no doubt he'll regain the form that had many of us excited about him as the next melbourne captain. [censored] carlton are going to have the best midfield goin around.

also i wanna know why mclean's season review is not on the website

http://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/newsart...38/default.aspx

review

Just adding to what H. said - if we get a decent KPF at 11 like so many on here think we need, we will not be pushing back our chances of a flag from approx. 2013 onwards, in fact we would be bringing it forward.

2010 - how much benefit are we likely to get from a young key forward at 18 years?

2011 - how much benefit are we likely to get from a young key forward at 19 years?

2012 - how much benefit are we likely to get from a young key forward at 20 years?

I don't think we would be bringing it forward much/if at all.

However, if we don't get a young tall now it's going to be a long time before anyone we unearth in future years is ready.

Pick 11 for the last 22 years:

[...]

Find 11 here that are better than Brock, and then we're at even odds to get value for the trade.

I imagine the success with early picks has improved dramatically since 1986, given the resources spent on recruiting these days...

2010 - how much benefit are we likely to get from a young key forward at 18 years?

2011 - how much benefit are we likely to get from a young key forward at 19 years?

2012 - how much benefit are we likely to get from a young key forward at 20 years?

I don't think we would be bringing it forward much/if at all.

However, if we don't get a young tall now it's going to be a long time before anyone we unearth in future years is ready.

careful...you might talk sense and that will be lost onmany !!

pick 11 effectively now adds to some future proofing...but alas thats not a tangible you can see straight away and so it fuels the arguments of heortsighted

You severely overrate McLean as a footballer.

To each their own. You make a good case for McLean's mediocrity. However, it's nothing new. Bigfooty types have been saying more or less the same stuff for a long time. And he came out and became a highly rated. It seemed, up until his ankle, that he was going to be a player who played better than his apparent talent allowed. I certainly don't think it's ridiculous to suggest he was the strongest of our "inside" mids. You don't agree, therefore this trade looks a winner to you. Fair enough, and I honestly hope you're right.

yes it is evidence (and the only evidence that we have), but that doesn't mean it's USEFUL or MEANINGFUL evidence

Ok. So where is the useful/meaningful evidence? If you can come up with some information on trends, then by all means.

Besides, do recruiters have MORE useful and meaningful evidence than is available to us? I doubt it'd be something that would suggest anything other than the fact that the higher the ranking in the draft, the more likely you are to pick up a good player. I don't think JA was saying that pick 11 means you will ONLY get a player like the ones taken before at pick 11. But you can see a trend. There's nothing wrong with that. Add to that the fact that as many as 3 players who would have gone top 10 are going to the Gold Coast.

Fair enough if you don't agree. I'm more than happy for EVERY demons fan to be thrilled with this, but don't for a minute think that analysing past drafts DOESN'T offer any useful information. I suspect it's probably a good place to start for all 17 head recruiters.

How many of the 22 pick 11s do you rate as better than Mclean?

and

Is that enough for you to be comfortable?

what no. did james hird go , and compare that to years before and after. blues had a high pick last year and selected Yarran, struggled to get a game, every year is differant

How many of the 22 pick 11s do you rate as better than Mclean?

and

Is that enough for you to be comfortable?

omg! give it a rest!

give me every player that has been drafted at number 11+ for every year (potentially we can pick any player from those 22 years that had gone after pick 11)

and i willl pick 100 players that are better than brock.

brock is gone! and its great!

he deserved a pay cut! and he is complaining about negative roles... maybe if he was better he would be the guy the opposition club would be looking to asign negative roles on

Edited September 25, 200915 yr by DaveyJones'sLocker

2010 - how much benefit are we likely to get from a young key forward at 18 years?

2011 - how much benefit are we likely to get from a young key forward at 19 years?

2012 - how much benefit are we likely to get from a young key forward at 20 years?

I don't think we would be bringing it forward much/if at all.

However, if we don't get a young tall now it's going to be a long time before anyone we unearth in future years is ready.

'Strengthen' more than 'bring forward.'

Apologies for the poor choice of words.

What I am saying is that I am almost certain we would prefer to have 'Pick 11' from 2013-2020 than Brock McLean. Especially if that player picked is a KPF.

Now to back that up: McLean would be 26-33 during that time and, I believe, superceded in the midfield by Bennell, Maric, Scully, Trengove, Blease, and/or Strauss.

Given decent recruiting, Pick 11 could be 21-28 in that window and play an important role in our tilt.

Pick 11 would have a greater contribution to our premiership aspirations than Brock McLean.

(Although, as an afterthought, how old was Franklin last year?)

How many of the 22 pick 11s do you rate as better than Mclean?

and

Is that enough for you to be comfortable?

2008 Steele Sidebottom

2007 Patrick Veszpremi

2006 Andrejs Everitt

2005 Shaun Higgins

2004 Adam Thomson

2003 Beau Waters

2002 Jason Winderlich

2001 Richard Cole

2000 Trent Sporn

1999 Darren Glass

1998 Lenny Hayes

I'm feeling benevolent, so I'll humour you.

It's unfair to judge the last 3 draft years as there's just not enough weight of evidence yet as to how their career will unfold. And I'll not go back too far as recruiting has become much more of an exact science than the early years. I'll go back to 98, which leaves a pool of Higgins through to Hayes - 8 players. I rate Higgins, Winderlich, Glass and Hayes as better pick 11's. I rate Beau Waters really highly, but his injuries have cruelled him. Also, due to pace issues, previous injuries and 'build type', I reckon McLean has about 5 more years of solid AFL footy. I don't see a 30 year old McLean ripping it up. So any wise pick 11 from 09 should have double the length of tenure.

But once again, trying to rate McLean against a static pick is madness. We have access to all players from pick 10 to choose. A far more effective way of evaluating the choices available at pick 11 would be to include the top 20 picks from any given year, as they're the likely pool that a choice of pick 11 is going to come from. Are you still with me ? It goes without saying that most of the draft pool from pick 10 onwards won't seriously be considered for pick 11, but any recruiter is going to have a list of 5-10 players that they expect to be available at any given pick. So you'd be better served listing all the picks from 11-15 or 11-20 to guage what success has been achieved within those parameters.

Also, if another club has previously stuffed up pick 11 is it fair to pillory a MFC trade in 2009 ? It's a fairly unconvincing and myopic arbitrary measure. A tenuous argument at best.

Lastly, and I said this on the main forum, coaches very rarely lose players they want to keep. It may happen occasionally, or due to the 'go home' factor, but it's very rare. If Bailey really wanted McLean as part of our future he'd be playing next year. When was the last time anyone was in awe or amazed by a creative and lightening handball dished out by McLean to an outside player running at pace ? If you come up with more than one I'll be gobsmacked. It's a very, very good move by the MFC, imo.

PS: if you think that McLean is better than Winderlich, as I expect some will, then you didn't watch enough footy in 2009. Winderlich regularly hurt the opposition with his pace, goal kicking and ball use.

Now a question for you ? Do you think that McLean was an A grade midfielder ?

Edited September 26, 200915 yr by Hannibal

Lovely H, lovely!

Let us also not forget that Brock's Uncle, Ricky played with Carlton in the '60's before finishing at Richmond.

Maybe it was always Brock's intention to play at carlton.

Whatever it is, his best football is behind him so i believe the club made a hard but correct decision

Yime will reveal all.....

Whatever it is, his best football is behind him so i believe the club made a hard but correct decision

The club has played this one to perfection. Brock leaves on his own accord , even though the club was clearly happy with the move. We get a solid pick in the draft and Brock gets the opportunity to possibly play finals from next year. That's a win - win in my book. I rated Mclean highly and was happy to have him as Captain but this year really opened my eyes to his downside.

The club has played this one to perfection. Brock leaves on his own accord , even though the club was clearly happy with the move. We get a solid pick in the draft and Brock gets the opportunity to possibly play finals from next year. That's a win - win in my book. I rated Mclean highly and was happy to have him as Captain but this year really opened my eyes to his downside.

Brock was a very ordinary player in the Bottom AFL Club. Very Ordinary this year, so for us to pick up Pick #11 is a bloody Beauty.

Carlton to make finals next year??? Hmm I am not so sure about that.

But then i despise the puss they call Carlton.

Carlton to make finals next year??? Hmm I am not so sure about that.

Carlton are an average top 8 side destined to dissapoint when it matters, Watching Judd and co. bow out of finals just as the Demons begin to emerge is going to be very sweet.

Picture this: Melbourne V Carlton, elimination Final 2011. Carlton lead by 38 points only to watch Scully, Watts and co cut loose on the G, As Scully rips the ball from Judd's grasp to kick the winning goal he gives him a little wink just to say, "Thanks for choosing Carlton loser" before ramming into the Carlton Cheersquad behind the goals.

It's going to be one sweet ride this one, espcially as we'll skip past the likes of Essendon, Carlton, Collingwood, Geelong and Hawthorn to win that elusive 13th flag.

Carlton may have a few more 6th-8th place seasons before they slide again.

As far as Brock is concerned, I don't think it was about money, he's better than that. Think he just saw the writing on the wall. A role that diminishes year by year in a young fast skilful midfield that improves year by year vs. a soon-to-be-vacated role in a top midfield that has reached its peak. And a team that demands that he develop extra skills to those he's already got vs. a team that doesn't, and won't.

Edited September 26, 200915 yr by Akum

Am I the only one who thinks Carlton are going to be very good next year?

It's not bad reasoning H. (your last post)

Personally I can see a fair bit of truth in both arguments. I see our list and think there's less than half of them who've played good seasons. Of those MANY put a couple of dodgy years together. Are we to think the same thing of all of those guys? That they have no place in our side because they've struggled a couple of years. In isolation, yes, you can mark some of them very harshly. But then you have to allow for the Sylvias... guys who, as you've put it, are "just players" that go on to threaten to be much more than that.

Personally, I just don't prescribe to the out-and-out joy that some people are feeling that he's off the list. Many will mark him on his output for the next three years vs the output of pick 11... which is silly thinking.

I reckon the ONLY important factor here, MUST be the circumstances of his departure. If he was unhappy with what role he was to play, and on what money he was one, then it's out of our hands. Like the CJ trade, we're all VERY glad he's gone as his attitude when he left revealed he was not a team player. If it's proven Brock was selfish (and not just a well held myth) then yes, I'm behind the trade.

In the washup... the fan in me is hurting. I loved Brock. ANd no amount of reasoning is going to change that. The Woey trade was the right choice, and that one still hurts a little. These trades, if there's another, tear at an intangible fabric. While I'm CERTAIN it means nothing to you H, I think people are entitled to be fairly upset.

Personally I can see a fair bit of truth in both arguments. I see our list and think there's less than half of them who've played good seasons. Of those MANY put a couple of dodgy years together. Are we to think the same thing of all of those guys? That they have no place in our side because they've struggled a couple of years.

I can't comment unless you name names.

I can't comment unless you name names.

Rivers, Moloney, Sylvia, Jamar have all tested patience... and there's a few that could find themselves in dangerous territory, Garland being one... and Blease isn't out of trouble, though he doesn't fit well, since he hasn't played.

It was a touch rhetorical though.

Am I the only one who thinks Carlton are going to be very good next year?

Yes.

I'm gonna go watch some Jurrahtube.

The Blues deliberately threw the final game against the lesser rated Demons in '07 to deprive Melbourne of a priority pick and ensure the priority pick for themselves that delivered Judd to Carlton; while also keeping pick no.1 for themselves to get Kreuzer.

McLean was drafted at pick no. 5. and is a proven 96 game star and was a muted future captain of Melbourne. This year they say the quality of players in a smaller draft group drops off markedly after the first 4 or 5 picks - thus the Blues outsmart the Dees yet again.

To compensate us for the massive 6 pick places difference, we should get pick 11 and their pick 27 for our pick 34. ( 7 places difference - 2nd round not first. )

And Fevola's 10 grand fine can go to Brock as some compensation for one his generous 10 grand donations to the club.

BTW. didn't Carltank say after Fev urinated in the wrong position a while back and also thrust a dildo in someone's face or some such finable offence, that he was on two strikes and the next time he erred he was going to be kicked out of the club?

The Blues deliberately threw the final game against the lesser rated Demons in '07 to deprive Melbourne of a priority pick and ensure the priority pick for themselves that delivered Judd to Carlton; while also keeping pick no.1 for themselves to get Kreuzer.

McLean was drafted at pick no. 5. and is a proven 96 game star and was a muted future captain of Melbourne. This year they say the quality of players in a smaller draft group drops off markedly after the first 4 or 5 picks - thus the Blues outsmart the Dees yet again.

To compensate us for the massive 6 pick places difference, we should get pick 11 and their pick 27 for our pick 34. ( 7 places difference - 2nd round not first. )

And Fevola's 10 grand fine can go to Brock as some compensation for one his generous 10 grand donations to the club.

BTW. didn't Carltank say after Fev urinated in the wrong position a while back and also thrust a dildo in someone's face or some such finable offence, that he was on two strikes and the next time he erred he was going to be kicked out of the club?

And your point is? McLean was pick 5 in the worst draft for 20 years. 96 game star? hahahahahahaha

Fevola? Get a grip.

Good Grief.

This year they say the quality of players in a smaller draft group drops off markedly after the first 4 or 5 picks - thus the Blues outsmart the Dees yet again.

Who says? Are you trying to tell me that pick 6 would be a waste of time for Sydney as they are only going to get a bit player? If our recruiters have done there homework there is no reason why we won't get a good player. And so what if we don't? We were losing a player that on current form would struggle to get a game in the best 22 two years from now. We got the best currency from a player that wanted to leave and was being pushed aside by similar types. I honestly can't see how we could have got a better deal. It's now up to us to use it properly.