Rivers and Robbo

[rusty_kingswood 0]

His inability to keep his feet kills his ability to make consistent and worthy 2nd and 3rd efforts.

"But still not good enough" Taking another unwarranted swipe at Robbo again Rusty?

HAHA, Nice try though Rhino.

[Cards13 9,117]

But that's good enough for you sugar.

Do you work for the Navy RR?

[Akum 2,660]

Playing your foavourites again Jaded?

For the past few years, Robbo's good has been very rare against the bad.

Robbo's 2nd efforts were again poor. He just cannot keep his feet in a contest and rarely has a second effort. We played an opposition that gave Robbo far more latitude than he has been given in years.

And of those four goals, two were easy receives.

...

In all fairness, McLean before this week has been dreadful. He was not on his own in that. But as our supposed No 1 midfielder, he had been very ordinary.

Think this is unfair on both counts. Robbo's always smaller (and often much smaller) than whoever is on him, so has to make all-or-nothing efforts and launch himself at contests. He doesn't have the build for a KPF in 2009 IMO; his build is more like an opportunist HFF or FP. But at this stage we don't have any other reliable KPF so he plays where he's most needed.

And at his age he's mad to make 2nd & 3rd efforts when we're getting smashed, but when the game was there to be won he really did put in. His 2nds & 3rds were different this week. I honestly can't blame him for reserving his efforts for when they're really going to make a difference. And he was still putting in right at the end when the fitness of others who have been injured this year was beginning to tell and others had to stand up. I can understand why some people are exasperated by him, but he was one who really lifted today, and lifted again in the last quarter when we could have blown it like Freo did.

And rpfv is right - Brock has had a few good games, then a shocker last week, but was excellent on Saturday until he simply couldn't give any more. I thought it demonstrated how important he is to the team as the engine room. At his best, he's right up there with the best insiders. He's still not fully fit, but seemed to move much more freely this week. It's so important to us that he absolutely MUST be fully fit & fully prepared for 2010.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Think this is unfair on both counts. Robbo's always smaller (and often much smaller) than whoever is on him, so has to make all-or-nothing efforts and launch himself at contests.

Can you explain that to Brad Johnson of the Western Bulldogs?

And at his age he's mad to make 2nd & 3rd efforts when we're getting smashed, but when the game was there to be won he really did put in. His 2nds & 3rds were different this week. I honestly can't blame him for reserving his efforts for when they're really going to make a difference.

So what you are saying is that he is too old to put in and only puts in on his terms when he thinks it will make a difference? Selfish isnt it? Its never a matter of choosing when you to go hard or not in AFL.

No wonder he should be gone at seasons end.

I am sure the other younger players know all about that and I wonder if he was a topic at a team meeting called by the younger players

And rpfv is right - Brock has had a few good games, then a shocker last week, but was excellent on Saturday until he simply couldn't give any more. I thought it demonstrated how important he is to the team as the engine room. At his best, he's right up there with the best insiders. He's still not fully fit, but seemed to move much more freely this week. It's so important to us that he absolutely MUST be fully fit & fully prepared for 2010.

He was very ordinary against Collingwood, Essendon and Brisbane. And he was "the engine room" in a dreadful midfield in each of those games.

I share your desire that he be fully fit and prepared in 2010. However when he does play well (too few times) he receives accolades and rightly so but when he does not play well...he is injured. Hopefully the Footy Dept can get their minds beyond such illogical thinking and judge McLean more objectively. There is a reason why MFC need Scully and Trengove. They will hopefully develop into the true class midfielders that MFC supporters dream of. And by consequence allow McLean to provide more on the ground as part of the midfield rotations.

[Jaded No More 68,878]

No you dont. You're the first person to come up with an inplausible defence of a player who has done little to substantiate any such accolade.

Rubbish.

I said that he needs to do more than he currently does, and I was happy for him to be dropped for a lack of second efforts.

To not acknowledge that he is improving in that area, just goes to show that when you pick a player you don't like, you just run with the same wave of thoughts regardless of whether the position changes.

Go watch the replay, and we can discuss how many times Robbo did the right thing with the 2nd effort, and how many times he didn't.

He cost us a goal by staying down too long, which was terrible and he has got to stop the acting up, but he also did plenty of chasing.

Can we assume that since Brock played well this week that he is not injured at the moment and if he does play poorly in the future then he is obviously injured?

Can we assume that Brock hasn't all of a sudden become too slow and too poor a kick/decision maker to be a good player?

There are plenty of evidence to support my argument that Brock is unfit and hasn't done a pre-season.

He had a shocking game last week, which I acknowledged and would have been fine if a decision to drop him was made, but thankfully we didn't.

By the way, did you know that he copped a corked thigh during the game, yet still fought it out to be one of our best?

Brock has shown more often than not that he is a great player, who leaves nothing on that field. Your continual bashing of him is just so ridiculous and based on your poor long-term memory.

Stop judging players on one game, or one single effort. By doing that, you are pretty much in the same boat as people who write off first year players after 3 games!

[pantaloons 2,019]

I find it interesting how polarising a figure Robbo has become among Melbourne supporters. I expect this to be the case amongst the general AFL-supporting populace, but it surprises me that there seems to be a genuine dislike of Robbo by some of our own, beyond an annoyance at his flaws. I'm not taking any moral high ground here as a supporter thought policeman - I've had players that irked me to the point that I was happy to see the back of them upon their departure. The Robbo talk is just fascinating to me because I genuinely like the bloke, and absolutely love the enthusiasm he brings that some here have said irritates them. Each to their own, that's fine.

I echo the cries of those who hope that our youngsters don't learn from some of Robbo's bad habits, chiefly the lack of chasing and going to ground too often. Equally, I hope the passion and exuberance of Robbo isn't lost on them. I've thoroughly enjoyed watching him since 1997, and he's been a source of entertainment in some lousy years, and a key player in better years. If this is indeed his last season, I'll enjoy every goal and ensuing celebration like it's the last I'll see of it.

[Jaded No More 68,878]

I echo the cries of those who hope that our youngsters don't learn from some of Robbo's bad habits, chiefly the lack of chasing and going to ground too often. Equally, I hope the passion and exuberance of Robbo isn't lost on them. I've thoroughly enjoyed watching him since 1997, and he's been a source of entertainment in some lousy years, and a key player in better years. If this is indeed his last season, I'll enjoy every goal and ensuing celebration like it's the last I'll see of it.

Absolutely correct.

He is a bit of an enigma.

He does a lot of stupid things that come across as selfish, but he has been a brilliant player over the years and has pulled our sorry arses over the line more times than I can remember.

In terrible years, with no support, he was our leading goal kicker, and in good years, he stood up (particularly in finals) to deliver some devastating blows to the opposition.

For a small guy, with average pace, he has an amazing leap and is one of the best overhead marks going around.

He is also one of the very very few players in the team that you can count on to do something special and lift when required.

Yes it is infuriating when he goes to ground, pretends he has been shot and refuses to chase, but FMD go find another player on our list who right now can contribute 4 goals while taking away the opposition's best defender (who is generally much bigger than him).

He also regularly enjoys ripping Scarlett a new one, which is a joy to watch

[H_T 3,043]

Yes it is infuriating when he goes to ground, pretends he has been shot and refuses to chase, but FMD go find another player on our list who right now can contribute 4 goals while taking away the opposition's best defender (who is generally much bigger than him).

He also regularly enjoys ripping Scarlett a new one, which is a joy to watch

C.Sylvia.

[Jaded No More 68,878]

C.Sylvia.

Can he take all of his shots on the run from 65m out?

I'll never understand how he nails those, but misses from 20m out on a slight angle, given he is generally a very good kick.

Although it's not as weird as Stefan Martin nailing snaps across his body from the boundary, but not being able to kick from right in front.

By the way, I'm thinking Jamar might be our man. His snap was inspirational!

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Rubbish.

I said that he needs to do more than he currently does, and I was happy for him to be dropped for a lack of second efforts.

To not acknowledge that he is improving in that area, just goes to show that when you pick a player you don't like, you just run with the same wave of thoughts regardless of whether the position changes.

Go watch the replay, and we can discuss how many times Robbo did the right thing with the 2nd effort, and how many times he didn't.

He cost us a goal by staying down too long, which was terrible and he has got to stop the acting up, but he also did plenty of chasing.

Thats the problem Jaded. He has not improved sufficiently. Any improvement is coming off a very low base. And as you point out he cost us a goal by staying down to long. That is a black mark full stop. Its damning and in Robbo's case more of the same. Its overrides any recognition of an allegedy brave effort. Can't you see that?

You miss the point if you think its matter of tallying the good and not so good efforts. It isnt. The good 2nd efforts are mandatory and must be done each and every time. There is no compromise. AFL is unrelenting. Robbo has not worked that out and neither have a few supporters

Can we assume that Brock hasn't all of a sudden become too slow and too poor a kick/decision maker to be a good player?

Are you judging on one game or seeing what you want to see?

There are plenty of evidence to support my argument that Brock is unfit and hasn't done a pre-season.

He had a shocking game last week, which I acknowledged and would have been fine if a decision to drop him was made, but thankfully we didn't.

By the way, did you know that he copped a corked thigh during the game, yet still fought it out to be one of our best?

Brock has shown more often than not that he is a great player, who leaves nothing on that field. Your continual bashing of him is just so ridiculous and based on your poor long-term memory.

So how do you explain his other performances Jaded this year? Great you thought he should dropped. I didn't unless he was injured.

McLean is a great player but is injured .......right. For someone who made a big stand about when a player runs out he is a 100% accountable you have repeatedly walked around that with Robbo and McLean its a bizarre

Stop judging players on one game, or one single effort. By doing that, you are pretty much in the same boat as people who write off first year players after 3 games!

You had routinely had a go at me in another thread for making a judgement about McLean over a 3 year period. And during that thread you completely made an arse of yourself for repeatedly misrepresenting my point of view in my statement. Are you for real or you dont think before you hit the key board?

[Axis of Bob 11,773]

I'm not a fan of Robbo because in a team game he doesn't display a team ethic. He likes the attention that the game of football brings him personally, but his motivation to win a game of football is based upon his own desire for celebrity rather than the concept of team success.

Conversely, Brad Miller is in the leadership group. He doesn't have a quarter of Robbo's talent, but he busts his gut to do the team thing week after week. As a result, I admire him as a player and as an example to the younger players - a real leader. Robbo doesn't chase unless it looks good and he goes to ground holding his head after flying for a mark purely (IMO) because he doesn't want to chase the rebounding defender which is unrewarded team running. It's selfish and it is not the way that I want our younger players to play.

Since Robbo will likely not be at the club next year, I would not play him at AFL level simply because I think our side will be worse off in the long run by having Robbo's lack of team ethic rub off on the kids.

Miller can't control his lack of talent, but he gives it his damn best for the team each week. Robbo has the talent, but plays for himself. I know which one I'd rather have in a young side trying to develop a winning culture.

[Jaded No More 68,878]

Thats the problem Jaded. He has not improved sufficiently. Any improvement is coming off a very low base. And as you point out he cost us a goal by staying down to long. That is a black mark full stop. Its damning and in Robbo's case more of the same. Its overrides any recognition of an allegedy brave effort. Can't you see that?

You miss the point if you think its matter of tallying the good and not so good efforts. It isnt. The good 2nd efforts are mandatory and must be done each and every time. There is no compromise. AFL is unrelenting. Robbo has not worked that out and neither have a few supporters

When have I ever disagreed with that?

Robbo needs to do more, just as he needs to be acknowledged for his current efforts and the fact that his game on Saturday was a big reason we won, just as it has been for many years.

Are you judging on one game or seeing what you want to see?

No, I'm judging him over his career.

You say you judge him over a 3 year period, in which he came second in our B&F off half a season, and was consistently dominant.

So how do you explain his other performances Jaded this year? Great you thought he should dropped. I didn't unless he was injured.

McLean is a great player but is injured .......right. For someone who made a big stand about when a player runs out he is a 100% accountable you have repeatedly walked around that with Robbo and McLean its a bizarre

He is unfit, and that has been made public by CC numerous times.

He spent parts of pre-season recovering from surgery, and did no speed training.

Of course when he runs out there he is 100% accountable, and he has never ever not put in the effort. That is what being accountable means. It doesn't mean you do what is physically impossible.

If he physically cannot run or is struggling to kick because of his ankle, well there is little he can do to fix that right now (unless we choose to rest him). But he'll still run all day long and he'll still be on the bottom of every pack and he'll still get you 7 clearances. But you refuse to mention that, you just look at him and say he's too slow and can't kick.

Well he definitely could kick yesterday, when he wasn't the lone hand in the middle, and had time and support around him, which is what he'll hopefully have in the future.

He can't do it alone, but what a difference a winning ruckman and a good physical display from the rest of the team makes. It gave Brock a lot more space to work with, and some of his kicks were at their brilliant best.

But when he is doing it on his own, with little space to work with and we don't apply the pressure on the opposition, Brock has much less time to dispose of the ball and cannot rely on his pace to burn off an opponent, particularly given his lack of pre-season.

As I've said time and time again, get him some support and he'll show you his worth, just as he did yesterday, and in 2008 and when he won us a final in 2006.

Last week he was terrible, no doubt, and the vultures were out in force. It's good to know that our FD is less short-sighted and judges players on more than a few poor showings.

I wonder what you'll say when he once again gets a top 5 finish in the B&F.

[Jaded No More 68,878]

Since Robbo will likely not be at the club next year, I would not play him at AFL level simply because I think our side will be worse off in the long run by having Robbo's lack of team ethic rub off on the kids.

I understand your logic, but the problem is that without Robbo there, you are leaving Watts and Jurrah to play on guys like Darren Glass.

Robbo provides a distraction for the other younger players in the team, and allows them to play with less pressure, as he is still our number one target.

For example, there is no way I want Jurrah or Watts to play on Scarlett in a few weeks time. Robbo being there at least means an even contest.

[rpfc 28,306]

He was very ordinary against Collingwood, Essendon and Brisbane. And he was "the engine room" in a dreadful midfield in each of those games.

I share your desire that he be fully fit and prepared in 2010. However when he does play well (too few times) he receives accolades and rightly so but when he does not play well...he is injured. Hopefully the Footy Dept can get their minds beyond such illogical thinking and judge McLean more objectively. There is a reason why MFC need Scully and Trengove. They will hopefully develop into the true class midfielders that MFC supporters dream of. And by consequence allow McLean to provide more on the ground as part of the midfield rotations.

He doesn't have the base behind him; shortened PS and, according to CC, wasn't able to do the required speed work.

He is toughing it out and has been better than you give credit. Awful disposal against Collingwood but half his possies were contested and had 7 or 8 clearances, the same goes for the Bombers game with less awful disposal.

When we are bad everyone looks awful. But he was one of the best in a bad lot. A pathetic thing to say for sure, but required if you are to make an individual judgement of players - which is what we are doing.

You can't just lump everyone together into 'the midfield group' and expect to get the right judgement of individuals.

Except for the Lions game - he was awful...

[Axis of Bob 11,773]

Robbo .... allows them to play with less pressure

Yep. Less defensive pressure!

He's currently the best contested mark in our forward line. But you are confusing talent with application. Just because Robbo can do things the others can't yet, doesn't excuse him for his appalling lack of team ethic. That's something anyone can do, but Robbo refuses to and the kids need to see that it can't be tolerated. Unless Bailey is having him in the team so that he can use his lack of defensive pressure as an embarrassment in order to teach the kids.

What about playing Stef Martin and Miller as key forwards? You'll still get the contest but also get the chasing, plus send a strong message to the kids that nobody is above being dropped for lack of team ethic.

The fact that you, one of Robbo's biggest fans, acknowledge his poor team ethic is an absolute indictment on a 30 year old footballer who should have learnt from over 10 years of experience. Although Robbo will look back at the adulation that he has received as a high marking highlight reel forward, he should be ashamed of what he cost his teammates. He won't, though.

Also, he may cost himself another contract at the MFC. He should be let go of at the end of the year, but someone with his contested marking ability really should have allowed himself to play for longer.

[Jaded No More 68,878]

Also, he may cost himself another contract at the MFC. He should be let go of at the end of the year, but someone with his contested marking ability really should have allowed himself to play for longer.

I don't really disagree with any of that, except I don't agree with the notion that he is selfish.

I know he comes across that way on the field, and as though he is playing to boost his own highlight reel, but believe me when I say that he really loves this club and he hates losing. He has always played in a flamboyant sort of way, and many people forget that essentially he is a goal sneak, a forward pocket. He is not a KP forward. His bread and butter should be the miracle goals, not taking contested marks in the goal square or being used as a leading target. So in that respect, he has done extremely well.

Still, you are right about his defensive pressure and Bailey has made him pay for it by dropping him. It is a big slap in the face to be dropped as a senior player when your team is going to win the spoon. Since returning he has been better (I wish some would recognise that!), but still has deficiencies he needs to work on in that regard. If he wants to keep playing beyond this year, he has to get better with his 2nd and 3rd efforts, it's simple. Because in all other areas, he is still a very good contributor. He has lost none of his leap and can still take contested marks and kick big goals, so from that prespective he is definitely good enough to play beyond this year.

As for playing Miller or Martin at FF, it might work in the physical sense but neither Miller nor Martin will command the same respect that Robbo does at FF. By not being able to easily zone off him when the ball comes into our forwardline, it gives us a lot more one-on-one marking opportunities, which we lacked desperately at the start of the year when Robbo wasn't there.

It's like saying drop Fevola, because he is a tool, and play Fisher at FF. Both can take a mark and kick goals, but the difference in their presence is massive. Even when Neita wasn't kicking goals, he was invaluable in helping us kick them through other avenues.

Miller, love him as I do, has shown he is a much better player when playing wide and pushing up the ground. And Martin, in his third or fourth go as a forward is not good enough to command that respect yet.

I'm worried that if he doesn't play, we'll revert back to bombing long to a two-on-one contest, which is a terrible habit to get into.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

When have I ever disagreed with that?

Robbo needs to do more, just as he needs to be acknowledged for his current efforts and the fact that his game on Saturday was a big reason we won, just as it has been for many years.

Whatever he is doing, its not good enough. And even on your rose coloured terms you are best splitting hairs. He got three or four easy receive goals and gave one up with a poor second effort. He wasn't near the best. But he did play at the best Robbo can.

He is a shadow of the player he was and the game has found him out. The only games he has dominated in over the past three years have been sides that have flown the white flag or not manned up on him.

Its once in a couple of months that he plays a game like Saturday and all the parrots are out.

No, I'm judging him over his career.

You say you judge him over a 3 year period, in which he came second in our B&F off half a season, and was consistently dominant.

Hardly. His B & F positioning is as much a reflection of the crap midfield he is in as regard his game. And BTW, I have judged him over the three year period. Why do continually have a problem with that?

Of course when he runs out there he is 100% accountable, and he has never ever not put in the effort. That is what being accountable means. It doesn't mean you do what is physically impossible.

If he physically cannot run or is struggling to kick because of his ankle, well there is little he can do to fix that right now (unless we choose to rest him). But he'll still run all day long and he'll still be on the bottom of every pack and he'll still get you 7 clearances. But you refuse to mention that, you just look at him and say he's too slow and can't kick.

Brock may be accountable because you carry on with such a grab bag of superfluous excuses. But you are not in the assessment of him.

Jaded, I have never questioned the effort just the output. And I will applaud him when he plays well (like I have) and I will critique him when he does not. That making someone accountable.

Well he definitely could kick yesterday, when he wasn't the lone hand in the middle, and had time and support around him, which is what he'll hopefully have in the future.

"If he physically cannot run or is struggling to kick because of his ankle.." . OK so he could kick yesterday so he could not have an ankle problem??? Oh of course we he does not play well, he has an ankle problem.

The concern was we played an outfit that is going through the motions without Cox and Kerr that applied little pressure. around the ground.

He can't do it alone, but what a difference a winning ruckman and a good physical display from the rest of the team makes. It gave Brock a lot more space to work with, and some of his kicks were at their brilliant best.

But when he is doing it on his own, with little space to work with and we don't apply the pressure on the opposition, Brock has much less time to dispose of the ball and cannot rely on his pace to burn off an opponent, particularly given his lack of pre-season.

You are right. He cant do it on his own. He wont have a winning ruck each week. He wont have so much space to move in against good team. Is he only good against weak sides?

As I've said time and time again, get him some support and he'll show you his worth, just as he did yesterday, and in 2008 and when he won us a final in 2006.

Exactly. He is good ordinary footballer that needs better players than him around him to compete against the better sides

Last week he was terrible, no doubt, and the vultures were out in force. It's good to know that our FD is less short-sighted and judges players on more than a few poor showings.

You wanted him dropped and a week later he is a "great player". Were you comparing the FD to yourself?

I wonder what you'll say when he once again gets a top 5 finish in the B&F.

Brock has played all games so far this year and if plays 22 games he should be a shoo in for a top 3 B & F seeing as he is great player and the engine room of our team. If there are four other players ahead of him given the performances and given the injuries we have had, I would call his achievement a further vindication of why he has plateaud. But I am sure you will have any number well meaning excuses to explain it away.

[Roost It 1,434]

I can understand some of the emotion of some players after kicking a goal. But geez..........Robbo goes overboard.

It's called being a showpony

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I don't really disagree with any of that, except I don't agree with the notion that he is selfish.

I know he comes across that way on the field, and as though he is playing to boost his own highlight reel, but believe me when I say that he really loves this club and he hates losing.

But he does so on his terms not the teams. That's why he is selfish. Attempting to kick goals on your back rather than do what is right for the team is how he visualises his contribution.

His bread and butter should be the miracle goals, not taking contested marks in the goal square or being used as a leading target.

His bread and butter should doing what is best for the team at all times. 12 years of AFL football and he cannot work it out. Its an indictment on the Club and reflection of its supporters who cant work that out and keep me ridiculous exceptions for a player who repeatedly costs the Club because he will not/can not commit to the team ethic.

[Jaded No More 68,878]

"If he physically cannot run or is struggling to kick because of his ankle.." . OK so he could kick yesterday so he could not have an ankle problem??? Oh of course we he does not play well, he has an ankle problem.

The concern was we played an outfit that is going through the motions without Cox and Kerr that applied little pressure. around the ground.

I don't know whether or not he is having trouble with his ankle, I do know that he has had limited pre-season and that up until this year he has always been a very good user of the ball. Players don't lose those sorts of skills over the course of a summer.

It is possible that some weeks he is less sore, and some weeks he really feels it. It is also possible that given how much pressure our midfield is under each week, that when not given time and space, he cannot get proper penetration in his kicking.

You are right. He cant do it on his own. He wont have a winning ruck each week. He wont have so much space to move in against good team. Is he only good against weak sides?

Exactly. He is good ordinary footballer that needs better players than him around him to compete against the better sides

Yes, because we know that over his career he has never stood up against any good side

He was our second highest possession winner against Geelong this year, and third highest possession winner against the Saints. So yes, you are right, he only performs against weak sides. Silly me.

He has also been a major contributor in every victory we have had over the last 3 seasons.

There is a big difference between being a good ordinary footballer, and not being able to carry a midfield on your own. Name a single player who can successfully dominate each and every week in the midfield, when surrounded by rubbish?

Of course he won't always be playing under a winning ruck, but when the outside midfield improves, and we start to apply the sort of pressure we applied on Satuday every week, he will have more space and more time.

In a good side, he is a very good player who is invaluable to our ability to get first hands on the ball. In a poor side, he does what he can by winning clearances and being on the bottom of every pack, but his ability to play the outside game is deminished by a lack of quality around him. In an ideal world he will be a purely inside midfielder. Currently he is forced to play both, with little support.

Brock has played all games so far this year and if plays 22 games he should be a shoo in for a top 3 B & F seeing as he is great player and the engine room of our team. If there are four other players ahead of him given the performances and given the injuries we have had, I would call his achievement a further vindication of why he has plateaud. But I am sure you will have any number well meaning excuses to explain it away.

Wow, so now a top 5 finish is not good enough, given a limited pre-season and given Davey and Sylvia are having their best season ever? That's just ridiculous. He is 23 FFS, and is our main ball winner each week. Consistent high finishes in the B&F is a very good indication that you are a good player, even if you are playing in a crap team.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I don't know whether or not he is having trouble with his ankle, I do know that he has had limited pre-season and that up until this year he has always been a very good user of the ball. Players don't lose those sorts of skills over the course of a summer.

It is possible that some weeks he is less sore, and some weeks he really feels it. It is also possible that given how much pressure our midfield is under each week, that when not given time and space, he cannot get proper penetration in his kicking.

You dont know so why did you raise it? Another case of making an excuse for sake of it. Brock wont be getting time and space against good teams or haven't you noticed.

Yes, because we know that over his career he has never stood up against any good side

He was our second highest possession winner against Geelong this year, and third highest possession winner against the Saints. So yes, you are right, he only performs against weak sides. Silly me.

His performances were workmanlike and honest not dominant. Pulling out numbers of possessions to suit an argument relies does play to seeing what you want to see. And given the position he plays getting a lot of possessions should be perfunctionary not necessarily a vindication.

There is a big difference between being a good ordinary footballer, and not being able to carry a midfield on your own.

Correct. Thats my point. He is not a great footballer nor is he likely to be the no 1 midfielder.

In a good side, he is a very good player who is invaluable to our ability to get first hands on the ball. In a poor side, he does what he can by winning clearances and being on the bottom of every pack, but his ability to play the outside game is deminished by a lack of quality around him. In an ideal world he will be a purely inside midfielder. Currently he is forced to play both, with little support.

Its got nothing to do with inside and outside. He is required to play midfield and win possessions. You have claim he is doing that effectively then you are .....making more excuses.

Wow, so now a top 5 finish is not good enough, given a limited pre-season and given Davey and Sylvia are having their best season ever? That's just ridiculous. He is 23 FFS, and is our main ball winner each week. Consistent high finishes in the B&F is a very good indication that you are a good player, even if you are playing in a crap team.

Sylvia has played really well in the past four games and against Richmond. He will play less games than McLean. If Sylvia does then doesn't that shine a light on our Brock. Davey....I agree with.

Lets see its Davey, Syvlia....Bruce??.... Person X then McLean.

If he is as good a player as you are flapping on with, he would be winning the B&F or top 2 in a crap team.

But then again...you will find excuses.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,043]

Wow. That is a truly ridiculous thread. And to think it started out so well as an attempt to give credit to two guys who showed improvement this week. Isn't it amazing the little things that can set the Trolls off?

Let's get back to the point a little shall we?

One thing I absolutely loved about Rivers' game was the way he was twisting from side to side as he ran back either to attempt a mark or after taking one. It's something he used to do before all the injuries. It gives him the opportunity to get a bit of a look at what's around him while still contesting the ball legally. I saw that and had flashbacks to his breakout season. Hopefully I'm not wrong in thinking that it's a sign of returning confidence in his body.

As for Robbo, I didn't really love his game. I was happy to see him getting into it and enjoying his footy, because that's when he has the greatest impact. It was good to see him get a decent return on the scoreboard. If we're going to win any more games this year he'll have to keep on kicking 4 or more a game.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,043]

Ok, so I can't resist adding a little to the Robbo debate.

In all honesty, I can say that there are few players in the modern era who have done so much to harm their club. In the last few years playing alongside a declining David Neitz and then without any real support in the forward line at all, he has continued to present and kick bags of goals. Indeed, he has topped the club's goalkicking on no less than three occasions in 2001, '05 and '07 and won a best and fairest in 2003.

Now you may be asking how any of this is harmful to the club, and the answer is simple. DRAFT PICKS! This is a team that should have bottomed out years ago. With an ailing (and mediocre) full forward, Brad Miller as CHF and little more to offer, Melbourne should have been winning the wooden spoon consistently for years. Just for one moment imagine if Robertson hadn't been trying to win games off his own boot in those last few years. Kreuzer would be on our list, so the Ruck problems are solved. Gibbs? Well, hardly worth the effort really, but Joel Selwood went that year.

I willingly concede that had we been so fortunate as to draft those two, we might not now be in a position to get Scully, but then our forward line is still in disarray, so perhaps we could.

In conclusion, allow me to say simply "Damn you Russell Robertson. You're insistence on kicking goals has doomed us all!"

[Carn dees 108]

You are right. Robbo should continue to do the low percentage things in preference to the higher percentage contests that help the team. He should also continue to work on that goal kick from flat on his back. Those tricks win games.

Chasing??? Robbo Chasing???..... You are right again. Why should he chase? He never has and other dont do it.

And most of all he has to think of himself.

So what do you expect of robbo?

If you think going for high marks shouldnt be an asset of his game, you really are kidding your self you really dont no him at all.

4 goal receives, robbo kicked for goals took 6 marks, put them together, and seroiusly say all or close to all of his goals were easy recieves, your pulling stuff out of know where to down grade a good performance.

Robbo does chase he just because his not good at doing it doesnt mean he doesnt care.

I know youve got your biased opinions on robbo and nothing will chaneg your mind about him so argueing is pointless.

But i conclude by saying robbo loves the club and has put on some very very good performances and contributions to the club, saying that is an understatement.

[col=sk 0]

I personally am greatfull to have witnessed the career of robbo.

Excitement and passion that he brings to this club. The bloke his dedacated and does put his all into the club.

His second efforts and chasing may be a bit of a let down, purely due to his lack of chasing speed.

Rhino what did robbo do to you thats made you so biased towards him?? :D

Well done robbo to a great career and i acknowledge the work youve done considering what you have to worl with lately!