Regarding the failed merger with Hawthorn

[H_T 2,941]

i would prefer that any clubs which were asked to merge were allowed to drop into another competition ie vfl, while their football departments merged, and the other club 'offered' to take on some of heritage and traditions ie colours, monika, etc.

I tend to agree.

Wouldn't it be great over the years the current Fitzroy Football Club would rise up through the competitions to a popular suburban football team? It would make a great story for future generations.

[Demonster 37]

'I think he also says that the vote was not rigged in anyway and there is nothing to say that of those who didn't get in, more were going to vote anti merger.'

Nuggett - I have it on tape from the media coverage of the night, as well as being there. No-one arrived at Dallas Brooks Hall to vote yes.

The number outside, locked out and not allowed to vote, was thousands, not hundreds. Any fair-minded running of the vote would have delayed the vote and allowed all votes to be cast. The queue wrapped around the entire Dallas Brooks block.

Anyone who doesn't think Melbourne supporters have passion did not witness this event. To watch it now, 13 years later, it is incredible.

The panel from Talking Footy, who kept crossing live to Dallas Brooks Hall, were shocked and at times speechless.

Also, Barassi initially backed the merger and many voted with him. He changed his mind at the death but unfortunately votes had been cast. As part of the Demon Alternative we were manning the phones and dealt with scores of people wanting to change their vote as a consequence, but were too late to lodge postals.

The Board at the time comprised great Melbourne people, and most are well and truly back in the fold. But they got that one completely wrong, and didn't care much for opposing views.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,625]

Ridley's tirade at Dallas Brookes Hall that night was reminiscent to me, of films I've seen of Hitler brainwashing the masses.

He shouted with emotional rage, while repeatedly playing propaganda films.

It was Ridley who caused the bad behaviour(by both sides) that night.

I can never understand how so few ex-players stood up for the continuity of our club. Brian Dixon(despite all his acknowledged failings) should feel proud of his stance. Ron and Robbie were torn between their loyalty to Tiger and their love of the Club. Both eventually came out against the merger, but too late. Either could have swung the vote enormously by speaking against the destruction of the MFC.

The absence of other ex-players reinforces the fact that the real heart of a footy club is the die-hard supporter group.Players come and go. They give their all on the field, but their allegiance changes with a whim. People like us Demonlanders will never forsake our Club.

Ian Ridley was my favourite player when he represented us on the MCG. I was unable to forgive him, in my own mind, for his misguided, dishonest attempt to disbandon our club.

[james1977 0]

I suggested nothing of the sort. I stated only the fact that hundreds, if not thousands were disenfranchised.

What on earth made you read such a sinister interpretation into my words?

I read too much into what you said. I assumed that they had knowingly locked out people who were mainly intending to vote "no". In hindsight that was a pretty crazy assumption. I wish now that I hadn't said what I said about the directors at the time. I don't know any of them and I'm going to read up on 'Tiger' who must have really loved the club. I guess you wouldn't be a director (who are unpaid) unless you loved the club. So I am sorry for saying what I said. It is a good thing though that the merger fell through.

[james1977 0]

I tend to agree.

Wouldn't it be great over the years the current Fitzroy Football Club would rise up through the competitions to a popular suburban football team? It would make a great story for future generations.

I agree. It's a shame that they don't have the 'lion' symbol anymore though. I guess they had to give that up when the merger occured. I don't understand it totally but the Fitzroy Football Club merged with the Fitzroy Reds. I could be wrong but I think that the Fitzroy Football Club had allowed the Fitzroy Reds to use their colours like a franchise. Now their one club. It's strange to think about though because who are Fitzroy now? Are they the Fitzroy Football Club or the Brisbane Lions? I thought I read somewhere that the Fitzroy Football Club (the amatuer one) was a different legal entity to the Fitzroy from the AFL. It would be nice if the Brisbane Lions allowed the Fitzroy Football Club to wear the lion symbol.

[deanox 8,702]

I agree. It's a shame that they don't have the 'lion' symbol anymore though. I guess they had to give that up when the merger occured. I don't understand it totally but the Fitzroy Football Club merged with the Fitzroy Reds. I could be wrong but I think that the Fitzroy Football Club had allowed the Fitzroy Reds to use their colours like a franchise. Now their one club. It's strange to think about though because who are Fitzroy now? Are they the Fitzroy Football Club or the Brisbane Lions? I thought I read somewhere that the Fitzroy Football Club (the amatuer one) was a different legal entity to the Fitzroy from the AFL. It would be nice if the Brisbane Lions allowed the Fitzroy Football Club to wear the lion symbol.

the fitzroy reds is the fitzroy football club that we knew., in the same way the the melbourne football club is the original melbourne football club. i believe the clubs were never actually merged during the brisbane fitzroy thing.

[Hannabal 4]

I was at Dallas Brooks Hall on Sept 16, 1996 as a loosely aligned supporter of the Demon Alternative group with Mark Jenkins, Angus Graham, and Michael Dobel, amongst others. It's a night I'll never forget. I believe that the sentiment of the majority of supporters in that room were anti-merger. Some were feral in their vitriol towards those orchestrating such a move, including yours truly. I booed with venom pro-merger exponent Ron Barassi, and others, when their images came on the stage screen. We saved our best though for Tiger Ridley, Hassa Mann, Ian Johnson, Bill Guest and the rest of the Board when they appeared. There were anti-merger signs everywhere. After questions and answers from both sides, and after copping heaps for what seemed like an eternity, a defiant Ridley called his men up off their chairs to stand next to him at the front of the stage and urged them to raise their collective arms in a show of unity. We booed louder. It was one wild night. I don't feel great about abusing Melbourne icons now, but such was the passion of possibly losing my club that those emotions were hard to contain. And naturally it was a last chance to hopefully sway any swinging voters left in the room. I confess to having a grudging admiration for Ridley that night. Even though I didn't agree with him he shone amongst his peers amidst a sea of acrimony. The loudest cheers earlier in the night were for Robbie Flower when he made his way to his seat amongst supporters. Robbie had declared himself anti-merger in the preceding weeks.

What many don't know, unless they were there that night, is that literally thousands of supporters were locked out of the venue. It was far too small to cater for the masses that wanted to attend and cast their vote. We did an impromptu sample survey of those queued outside and over 80% were anti-merger. They never got to vote. And it's no exaggeration to say that there were thousands locked outside. The Demon Alternative would have challenged the result in the courts due to the MFC failing to provide a venue that adequately catered to all those wishing to express a vote. Interestingly, the venue had been booked for that night by the MFC almost a year earlier.

The pro-merge result now stands as part of our history, but the Board had a major advantage with proxies (including at least one Board Members private employees that didn't even barrack for Melbourne but joined up and voted 'yes' under instruction). And I don't begrudge the many supporters that faithfully voted 'yes' to the merger, as they placed their support in mostly good men, who at the time advocated the only viable solution they saw for a club lacking support. Unfortunately though, the result lends itself to dolts who have no real clue as to what it was like at the time, but like to regurgitate this part of our history in order to validate pre-conceived ideas about Melbourne supporters. If anyone wanted to know the definition of "passion" they only had to attend that night.

I post this only to give a snapshot to those who know about the meeting, but were either too young to be there, or weren't able to attend. I also do it to give perspective against the backdrop of prejudice that envelops this part of our inglorious history.

[H_T 2,941]

Thanks for that snapshot Hannabal. I didn't attend that night back in '96. But I am definitely more aware of the passion of Melbournefc members/supporters there that night thanks to your post. I was Anti-merger and I look at our club at present, where I believe once again we are going places, and think how fortunate that the club managed to get through such a trying time in that period of the clubs history.

[pitmaster 3,064]

I attended also but can't testify to the numbers locked out since I was up the front giving the evil eye to Bill Guest because of his buying up of memberships for his employees - none of whom supported Melbourne but who voted for the merger to support their boss (their words as reported in the print media).

Hannabal is right it passed because of proxies linked to the board - rank and filers like us were overwhelmingly opposed. The vote should have included ALL who attended - that's where it was shonky.

And thanks H for reminding me of Mark Jenkins and his brother Tony who got the alternative started - true club heroes.

One last thing - the past players were coping it because Ridley was teliing them it was a takeover not a merger. I know this because at one point I rank Ray Biffen since I knew where he was working. He had misgivings, but said Tiger had convinced him and the others because it was Melbourne taking over that other mob.

I read Ridley's book and unlike some on this thread I was not entirely convinced he did not have a merger on his agenda for a lot longer than he lets on - even the selection of Balme as coach - a man who had had success with a merged club in SA causes me to have doubts about the long term agenda that was at work.

[praha 10,294]

Melbourne members voted for because they had experienced no success in 30 years, we were in far more of a rubble than the Hawks were and because there was no white knight in the ranks pushing for a no-merger vote. The Hawks had a very strong backing against it, so the members were influenced. Melbourne members sought the logical (at the time) choice, whereas Hawks members sought the passionate and surviving choice.

Remember, Melbourne didn't have a President or a board that was being positive and saying we'll survive like Stynes is now. They had a board that was pushing for the merger.

[james1977 0]

Thanks for the replay Hannibal. It's interesting that about 80% of the people outside were anti-merger. You'd think there would be a fairly uniform spread of votes. How many proxi votes were there. I'd be surprised if they made up more than 5%-10% of the total (which is significant enough of coarse). If that's correct (it is a guess so I could be wrong!) it would mean that at most 60% of the people inside were pro-merger (perhaps there were some swinging voters as well!) Did the pro-merger people get in early? Did the pro-merger camp agree to meet inside early? Did the anti-merger camp go to a rally before hand which delayed them? Its funny (or would be if it wasn't so serious) that some of the directors were calling it a takeover at the meeting (when it was a merger). It's funny because they would have been publically calling it a merger and referring to it as a merger to the Hawthorn board as well. I can't see them wanting to advertise it as a takeover as the support they would have got from the Hawthorn members and possibly the Hawthorn board would have been next to zero!

[james1977 0]

Melbourne members voted for because they had experienced no success in 30 years, we were in far more of a rubble than the Hawks were and because there was no white knight in the ranks pushing for a no-merger vote. The Hawks had a very strong backing against it, so the members were influenced. Melbourne members sought the logical (at the time) choice, whereas Hawks members sought the passionate and surviving choice.

Remember, Melbourne didn't have a President or a board that was being positive and saying we'll survive like Stynes is now. They had a board that was pushing for the merger.

What about Joe Gutnick? Weren't people aware before the vote that he was offering $3 million?

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,625]

[quote name='james1977' "What about Joe Gutnick? Weren't people aware before the vote that he was offering $3 million?"

Yes,we were aware. Ridley chose to turn his back on it, since it opposed his plans for personal glory.

Also, in response to another post on this thread, the Fitzroy Reds have dropped the "Reds" part of their name, thus abandoning their link to my old team, the Uni Reds.

[deanox 8,702]

[quote name='james1977' "What about Joe Gutnick? Weren't people aware before the vote that he was offering $3 million?"

Yes,we were aware. Ridley chose to turn his back on it, since it opposed his plans for personal glory.

Also, in response to another post on this thread, the Fitzroy Reds have dropped the "Reds" part of their name, thus abandoning their link to my old team, the Uni Reds.

The club is now called "The Fitzroy Football Club Ltd incorporating the Fitzroy Reds", and is playing under the name "Fitzroy" wearing the uniform of the Fitzroy Lions and singing the theme song of both clubs.

[pitmaster 3,064]

The merger didn't come off. I'm glad of that. I regret the hurt that was caused to great, passionate club men - particularly Tiger. I hope Tiger felt that he and the club and the supporters had got beyond the acrimony of that night and he understood he was revered and respected as the extraordinary Melbourne man that he truly was. If we ever need reminding of what a great man Tiger was, have a read of The Red Fox.

This comment intrigued me when I first read it.

Now that I have finished 'The Red Fox' (bought from the MFC shop where all of us should be shopping) I'd like ivor to tell me just what in Red Fox he is getting at.

Ridley does not come out of the book as any greater than numerous others, and, if I want to be picky about it, a bit slow witted not to take proper notes at the committee meeting which voted to sack Norm Smith.

So what is it Ivor?

[TheOx05 1]

I have fractured memories of that night. I was 17 at the time and growing up the only Melbourne supporter in my year at primary or secondary school. Growing up in the Essendon area as a Melbourne supporter was like being akin to a genetic freak.

That night i went with my father and a freind of the family that have and still gone to the footy with. i remember driving up Victoria street seeing a swathe of red and blue slowing making their way to the Dallas Brooks Hall. By the time we got there the main hall was packed out and we managed to get in a room underneath the stage. I have never ever in my life seen such passion and the energy that night was only matched by being at the G last year when we came back and beat Freo.

I remember a live cross being done in the main foyer during the night (as i went for a bit of a walk around) and stuck my head behind the reporter and getting my head on the telly (my mates who were watching that night still remind me of seeing my head on their tellies) i remember the words spoken about Tiger (which i can't use here) and the sheer hatred that one minute we are following the red and blue and the next minute we are "merging" with a team who to me didn't seem like a proper fit.

I remember Ridley coming on stage and seeing him scream through the telly (by this time i was back downstairs "GET ON YA FEET....GET ON YA FEET" as if i was watching history take place a floor above me. i remember sneaking into the main auditorium and just somehow seing the stage from the back and not giving anyone up there a chance to speak...unless your name was Dixon or Gutnick.

When i see the Dees now (i'm 30) i really do see a sence of direction that we have not had since that night both on and off the field. I've been to the Grand Finals in 88 and 2000, i remember TJ going mental against the crows in 02, i remember covering my ears when i was sitting on my dads lap when i was a kid in the 80's when the opposition kicked a goal, i remember the red seats, the peanut guy, Donald and David Cockatoo Collins, Jeff Farmers goal of the year at Waverley Park and thousands of other memories..

How could i go for anyone else?

I'm confident the good times are ahead....

[iw_s 0]

This comment intrigued me when I first read it.

Now that I have finished 'The Red Fox' (bought from the MFC shop where all of us should be shopping) I'd like ivor to tell me just what in Red Fox he is getting at.

Ridley does not come out of the book as any greater than numerous others, and, if I want to be picky about it, a bit slow witted not to take proper notes at the committee meeting which voted to sack Norm Smith.

So what is it Ivor?

I was talking about his playing career, that Collins details in the book - i.e. before Norm's sacking. I agree with you entirely, pitmaster, that Tiger's performance during that horrific committee meeting was utterly appalling - especially given the critical nature and magnitude of the events taking place. Indeed, there are plenty MFC people who performed shamefully during that entire episode.

[pitmaster 3,064]

Gotcha. I have only the faintest memories of him playing - he was a player of reckless courage certainly and earned the moniker Tiger.

For me, one of the interesting notions in the book was that if your namesake had lived longer the internal divisions against the Fox may have been averted.

Dr Duffy may not then have been the evil influence that he became.

[montasaurus 0]

Club Mergers should never happen. I use the NRL as an example. They are going Broke-The passions have been diluted, the money not as strong.

I would rather the MFC died as its own entity than merge with another Foe.

Fitzroys connection to the Brisbane lions is nothing more than a dead carcus.

This is an interesting point you do raise. Before anybody jumps on me I am not advocating pro merger, but.....

Take the emotion away from us and our club and look at it. The proposed MFC takeover of fitzroy, which the AFL prevented with an 11th hr deal at bris, the proposed hawthorne merger with the mfc and now nth have some real similarities in them.

The MFC has always been the stronger of the parties when linked. therefore merger or AKA take over is still a distinct posibility in the long run. I know there will be many that will attack this but simple dollars and cents or business models will prevale. if the afl and/or mcc and/or MFC ever run into black holes like our prev administration left we are in real trouble. Things are now looking positive but only just.

Nth Melbourne are in my uniformed opinion in big trouble. My hunch is that they are about to hit financil issues equal or greater then ours have been, while their media star president seems to have gone into a shell re the clubs issues and solutions/improvements eg wont even sit with his supports but our snr staff find the time at games to mix with the faithful. CS and Matt G were good enough last week to come up out of the blue at 1/2 time to say g'day to myself, my wife and another friend who are all members and not just say high and buy but spent a few minutes chatting about different things. Fantastic stuff.

Unfortunately for Nth, they wont have an MCC to come to the party. On field they have an aging list and even in an era of success suffer from terrible crowd numbers. What happens if they have a downfall like we did in the 2nd half of 06? The afl could very quickly decide that enough is enough and they get placed in adminstration within 1 or 2 years. It could happen that quickly. Block a new sponser ship ala fitzroy and see you later roos.

So where to then?

Gold coast is off the adjenda. So it is merge, relocate or die.

solution - Tasmania/western sydney as a stand alone. The counter to this is many supporters would rather see the club die then relocate so all of a sudden a merger becomes back on the adjenda. My tip will be that after they have beaten our drum enough the doggies will be the next target for the media if the MFC merger avenue goes. Then Stkilda, even richmond. It happens every time a club is in trouble. It all comes down to the AFL if the roos can't get their affers in order.

if we were to merge, would a take over ala bris/fitz be all that bad in the long run? it does make me think a little that provided it is still the MFC could many of us learn to accept it? initally i would say no deifinately not, but then if it was our only option for long term survival then maybe it is something that does deserve review.

Like I was saying right now no, but take my emotional connection with the club away and subjectively review maybe there is a bit left in the tank for this debate. Remembering the vote was yes last time from our end and in fact hawthorn actually saved our clubs at that point in time. It makes me wonder? Have either brayshaw or stynes made any statements yet? no news can sometime be bad news.

[rpfc 27,573]

This is still a gaping wound in the fabric of the club.

As someone close to high ranking official that pushed for the merger it fractured the club and the ties are still broken to some respect.

For those still angry with the pro-merger people I implore you to forgive (posthumously for Tiger) all that were involved.

They were not misguided or disloyal, they saw it as an opportunity to shore up the club with assets while retaining the MFC and eventually revert back to the Demons in a simple up or down vote a few years later.

In the words of the person I know who was pushing the merger, they were looking to "eat Hawthorn whole, take their assets, and become the Demons again 5 years later."

Everyone needs to move on.

[Einstein 1]

Best thread I've read for a while.

Brings back alot of memories, painful though some of them might be.

But what I remember most is the passion of the time.

The passion remains.

[dreamin' man 0]

While we were queuing outside Dallas Brooks (the line snaked round the block & beyond) the Dalai Lama drove by!

[Craig Drinker 179]

This is still a gaping wound in the fabric of the club.

As someone close to high ranking official that pushed for the merger it fractured the club and the ties are still broken to some respect.

For those still angry with the pro-merger people I implore you to forgive (posthumously for Tiger) all that were involved.

They were not misguided or disloyal, they saw it as an opportunity to shore up the club with assets while retaining the MFC and eventually revert back to the Demons in a simple up or down vote a few years later.

In the words of the person I know who was pushing the merger, they were looking to "eat Hawthorn whole, take their assets, and become the Demons again 5 years later."

Everyone needs to move on.

Either way it was devious and unethical.To try and merge the oldest and best football club was immoral.

If they believed it was a take over of the Hawthorn Football then that was deceptive in itself to the Hawthorn Football Club.

Just a total mess really!

[Sir Why You Little 34,658]

This is an interesting point you do raise. Before anybody jumps on me I am not advocating pro merger, but.....

Take the emotion away from us and our club and look at it. The proposed MFC takeover of fitzroy, which the AFL prevented with an 11th hr deal at bris, the proposed hawthorne merger with the mfc and now nth have some real similarities in them.

The MFC has always been the stronger of the parties when linked. therefore merger or AKA take over is still a distinct posibility in the long run. I know there will be many that will attack this but simple dollars and cents or business models will prevale. if the afl and/or mcc and/or MFC ever run into black holes like our prev administration left we are in real trouble. Things are now looking positive but only just.

Nth Melbourne are in my uniformed opinion in big trouble. My hunch is that they are about to hit financil issues equal or greater then ours have been, while their media star president seems to have gone into a shell re the clubs issues and solutions/improvements eg wont even sit with his supports but our snr staff find the time at games to mix with the faithful. CS and Matt G were good enough last week to come up out of the blue at 1/2 time to say g'day to myself, my wife and another friend who are all members and not just say high and buy but spent a few minutes chatting about different things. Fantastic stuff.

Unfortunately for Nth, they wont have an MCC to come to the party. On field they have an aging list and even in an era of success suffer from terrible crowd numbers. What happens if they have a downfall like we did in the 2nd half of 06? The afl could very quickly decide that enough is enough and they get placed in adminstration within 1 or 2 years. It could happen that quickly. Block a new sponser ship ala fitzroy and see you later roos.

So where to then?

Gold coast is off the adjenda. So it is merge, relocate or die.

solution - Tasmania/western sydney as a stand alone. The counter to this is many supporters would rather see the club die then relocate so all of a sudden a merger becomes back on the adjenda. My tip will be that after they have beaten our drum enough the doggies will be the next target for the media if the MFC merger avenue goes. Then Stkilda, even richmond. It happens every time a club is in trouble. It all comes down to the AFL if the roos can't get their affers in order.

if we were to merge, would a take over ala bris/fitz be all that bad in the long run? it does make me think a little that provided it is still the MFC could many of us learn to accept it? initally i would say no deifinately not, but then if it was our only option for long term survival then maybe it is something that does deserve review.

Like I was saying right now no, but take my emotional connection with the club away and subjectively review maybe there is a bit left in the tank for this debate. Remembering the vote was yes last time from our end and in fact hawthorn actually saved our clubs at that point in time. It makes me wonder? Have either brayshaw or stynes made any statements yet? no news can sometime be bad news.

Take over or Merge it doesn't matter. I DO NOT WANT THE NORTH MELBOURNE HONOUR BOARDS MIXED IN WITH THE MELBOURNE FOOTBALL CLUB.

We either stand alone & prosper or die.

I would never support anything to do with a merger, infact i would probably barrack against the team-just on principle.

The Roos were dangled a lifeline & they knocked it back. It's up to their supporters now not us.

[rpfc 27,573]

Either way it was devious and unethical.To try and merge the oldest and best football club was immoral.

If they believed it was a take over of the Hawthorn Football then that was deceptive in itself to the Hawthorn Football Club.

Just a total mess really!

It wasn't immoral...

Let's move past that one.

Devious, yes. Cunning, yes.

History, sh!t yes.