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"Culture", "losing mentality", "lack of heart", "lack of leadership" ... all "nothing" terms and easy, sloppy analysis, used by unthinking supporters to vent their anger. As Leigh Matthews said after yesterday, "Melbourne need to get proper structure around the stoppages, win the contested ball, use it well and spread". Then we'll get somewhere. Throwing out half the side, demoting players "forever", sacking coaches and blaming assistants without any real evidence are knee-jerk reactions that just make you feel good.

Thought we saw the difference between a midfield playing as a team and a midfield playing as individuals. These aren't the guys who were usually at the bottom of packs - that was their inside mids like Tuck, Morris, Edwards, Conca. The mids you mention - Cotchin, Foley, Martin & Deledio - are outside mids, the breakaways from the edges of the packs, who receive the ball in tight from the inside mids & work it between themselves to break away from the packs. Our mids - Jones Magner, McKenzie, Moloney when he's in - are expected to both get it at the base of the pack and also to do something with it, either try to break away (which is why Jones gets caught) or get rid of it in a hurry (which is why Magner's DE is down, why Jordie has so many handballs, and why Moloney bombs). We simply lack the structure that the top midfields do. Interestingly, none of Cotchin, Foley, Martin & Deledio are that good defensively against their direct opponents, but in their midfield structure, they don't need to be. But they work as a team-within-a-team to protect space on the edge of the packs, to stop their opposition mids from breaking away. Our outside-mids equivalents to Cotchin etc aren't Jones, Magner & so on, but Trengove, perhaps Grimes, perhaps Tapscott, Gysberts when he's not injured, Sylvia ditto, perhaps even Blease & Davey. They are more creative, more capable of being playmakers. But our current game plan bypasses these outside mids, which is why they can't get into the game. And one reason why our uncontested possessions are almost non-existent. Since 186 there has not been a single game where the side has played as a team for more than a few minutes in bursts. And our midfield is almost unique in having no structure whatsoever. They're things I expected Neeld to bring with him from where he came from, but maybe that's stage 2 or stage 3 or ... maybe it's not. The expression "outside mid" almost seems like a term of abuse at the moment.

Relax, we've got this

I vowed that nothing less than a win today would provide me with any solace. However, I have managed to find a positive to get really excited about (outside of Howe's fantastic game). The progression of the unfairly, maligned, Jack Watts. Already this season he's shown definite development and maturity. Remembering that he's had very little leadership to look toward in the forwardline. Still, he is slowly, but surely improving every week (not something you could say for the majority of our promising players - whose development seems to have been stifled by poor coaching and management). It does help that he's bulked up over the pre-season (but still needs another 5kg) and increased his aerobic capacity. This has and will enable him to magnify his versatility. On that note, there's a lofty comparison I'd like to make. There's a bit of Goddard in the way I can see him developing. He is a beautiful kick of the football. He can play anywhere on the ground and usually makes really good decisions. I'm at the stage of wanting the ball to be in his hands at almost every opportunity. He rarely misses targets and is able to pin-point lace out passes, over fifty metres on the run. He also kicks goals. With added muscular power, Watts and Clark will be a formidable duo. Both tall, yet extremely agile. Get a Liam Jurrah next to them and another pacey small forward (the likes of Eddie Betts or Gartlett) at their feet, and all of a sudden you have an extremely dangerous forward combination. It's about the work rate down there though. If the likes of Petterd and Dunn are to get games, they must adhere to maintaining the all-important defensive mindset. Chasing, tackling and forcing the opposition to turn the ball over. Jack still has a few things to work on, but he's showing marked improvement. Once he gains more strength, we can expect him to lay strong, uncompromising tackles as he did on a couple of occasions today. Enlarging his aerobic capacity will allow him to chase opponents down all day as well. I thought Jack's progress was worth noting, particularly considering the way the media (and indeed our own supporters) have unjustly crucified him. We can expect nothing less than what he delivered today from now on. I for one believe we have someone special on our hands.

Mediocre? Clark has been worth every one of those considerable number of pennies so far. I feel sick just thinking about what we'd look like without him at the moment.

your footy team is like your family. My kids are all late 20's/early 30's and I'm very glad they're alive. My kids have some great things about them, and some average things. It took a long time for them to grow up. It turns out (now that I look back on it) that I never did mutter "only a parent could love them". At times (lots of them) I got frustrated, and angry, as well as proud, and a couple of memorable times I've been awestruck by stuff they've done, mountain-peak experiences in my life, but overall, it's just family. No superstars, but great company and engrossingly interesting even though they don't make the headlines. You love them. You love the ride, and every little bit of their stuff (I notice supporters who get real pleasure out of seeing the caught-in-the-headlights moments, roar with laughter and point it out to each other, which I take as sort of affectionate). Weaknesses are not just failure to win, they are also personality, and you can have affectionate commitment to the personality alongside the most fervent desire to see it improved. And actually, what is > what could have been. I know footy is a competition, so it's different, but when we are losing, the family thing sustains me. My absolute best memories of football are the Robbie Flower years. Loyalty under ridicule has its own special pleasures. I don't think we are insolvent yet, and life goes on for a long time. Enjoy the ride, I say. Yell abuse from the window and all that, but you don't need to turn on your own. I'm not just waiting, I'm enjoying it.

Neeld had to start somewhere. He says he's still getting to know the players' particular strengths and weaknesses. Are we going to see him adapting then, in the next so many weeks, on the basis of what he learns? I am hoping so. What he has said suggests it is a possibility. Tailoring the game plan to the players will help restore the players' confidence. Confidence is from self-belief, but I suspect the value of "self" is not rock-solid for players at Melbourne, what with with the running disaster of 2011, and the public "new game plan" talk, and everyone being unsettled by the axe falling regularly since at least when Junior was moved on, not to mention the amount of mortality hacking at the club over the past few years. I think lack of confidence all round is a big part of Grimes turning it over in the face of no presenting option. Throughout the game we fumbled and reacted slowly, Davey and Morton and others hesitated and were lost - it could all be down to lack of confidence, especially when we have seen these same players decisive and accurate in the past. In the long run we want a cohesion made of what we have, rather than a created cohesion made up of players acting out "roles". That's not to say we can't look for improvements, and change bad habits and learn good ones and so on, obviously you can learn and develop and still be yourself (every school teacher will have studied the concept of "respect for persons" as a necessary element in classroom teaching. It means that we value the individuality of the student, and the knowledge and experience they bring to the classroom; the teacher aims to foster growth rather than imposing on the student values and judgments that invalidate the student's own take on life). I agree with Hardnut, we want to see some inspired outside-the-square thinking from our coach, alongside his unyielding expectations. We want a club that embraces its originals and values the contributions of its players, as well as one that toughens up. Watts is not the next this player or that player, any more than Jurrah is, just as Jakovich and Flower and Barassi and Doull and so on all were unique and the direct cause of many wins. By all means play cohesively and responsibly, but let it be a cohesion of the players that we have, and please never just the playing out of a white-board. When Richmond got their run on, they went for shots in total faith that it would go through - in contrast to themselves in the first two quarters and us all day. They suddenly remembered they can do it, and went for it. We look like we are flat out trying to play parts, and not really knowing them. This is what frustrates me, because there are some really talented players out there, under-performing... Hopefully, Neeld is on his own learning curve... New boy, everyone's patient, but he is not god. At the same time, on the evidence of his Collingwood experience, he does have an impressive skill-set of his own too. Unless he goes pig-headed and bullying, we can expect him to be thinking out modifications to his default game plan, as he gets to know the specifics of what talent is available to him. He admitted that it will take time to really know the list. On these grounds, at this stage I say we are reacting hastily, no matter how upsetting the current form is. Give him - and them - time to adjust to one another, and see what comes out of that. You can be sure they are putting into it at least as much thought as we are!

This post seems appropriate to this thread as well as another so I have repeated it. 'Fix the problem and the blame will fix itself.' (That is, don't waste time blaming anyone.) First, look at the playing list and assess its strengths and weaknesses - IMO the list consists of predominantly attack oriented players (compare Geelong with Collingwood for example). Second, look at how to get the best out of the current playing list. Third, invent a game plan to suit the list at the moment and then evolve it over time - don't try to enforce preconceived ideas or copy others as there is never enough time to do this and MFC needs to be ahead of copying which never works anyway. In short, be flexible and make the most of what you have got - the great Norm Smith created the ruck-rover role to find a position for a member of his playing list who could play but didn't fit the conventional positions of the time, Ron Barassi!

Am I embarrassed? NO Am I ashamed? NO Am I disappointed? YES Am I angry? YES Today I went out a put some MORE demons stickers on my car. Tomorrow I will get my grandson some new demons paraphenalia. Just HTFU princesses and just go and do something to make you feel GOOD about the demons The MFC are 'family' and you NEVER give up on family Jimmy didn't so why should you or yours? 5c worth

Who gives a crap. Watch us get humiliated and destroy the memory of Jim Stynes.

http://www.afl.com.a...ld/Default.aspx This just caps it off. . The definition of RESOLVE is that you stick at.... Our side did not show Resolve we showed resignation and Surrender. Followed this up with the normal...we are a young team getting games into the kids.. This is not about Mark Neeld in particular... this is a club Presser and before anyone defends it with the argument that we have to stay positive, I can't see any reason why today's shambles shouldn't have been followed by a press release that shows some recognition of how much we gave up. Get with Reality and stop the justification. Why not declare that we are embarrassed by our performance and lack of endeavour and have one of our oversupply of "captains" and "leadership group" apologise to the supporters and sponsors. Who will pay to come to watch this dross and then be told that it's actually ok...... if this performance continues the club won't make it to 2015. Please MFC........Don't [censored] down my neck and tell me it's raining

I wonder if there is any chance whatsoever that some day the AFL will invest just a few dollars in a roving mic so that we can actually hear the questions that the coaches are answering? It is bloody annoying, and frankly unprofessional.

Made me absolutely sick watching the Kangas play so well against one of the best in the business. Can't believe that all these sides are just overtaking us at will. This is soooo depressing. FML

Im sorry guys but at this stage i would drop Jamar and keep Martin as the number 1 ruck for the next 3 years. Then Gawn will take the job. Jamar is well down on form and i know martin is too like half our team but age is everything going forward right now and jamar is getting to slow for AFL and cant see him getting back to 2010 but i can see Martin playing as the number 1 ruck like lastyear really well Martin has more upside then Jamar in my eyes IMO. Jamar would be great trade bait for the right team.

I am not sure what you think this thread is about. All of us long-suffering Dees supporters are not giving up or giving in or burning our membership cards. We are GRIEVING that our kids and grandkids find it hard to stick with the Dees. We are sad that at Auskick there are often no Melbourne jumpers. We are sad that we have no superstars to make kids want to put numbers on their back, or buy badges etc... And I am doing something to make me feel good about following the Demons - typing a response to you because you have totally failed to understand the basis of this thread. Perhaps I should only use single syllable words?

Look Neeld is in a lose/lose situation with these post match press conferences following a flogging. If you remember back to the first round Neeld was lambasted for being too emotional, too angry and made the commitment that he must drop players. Subsequently papers write about it for 3 or 4 days and you get headlines like 'Dees in crisis' 'the world is falling apart' etc. Much better off pissing off the loyal supporters who furrow there brow when Neeld highlights the positive to media to avoid negative press the he might generate. Its highly likely that the press conference isn't necessarily the same message told to players or its delivered in a much different way. I much prefer Neeld honey coating a press conference for appearance sake than read all the negative press or so called experts like Matthews chiming in with his Hudson/Clark comment. Your better off not adding fuel to the fire so to speak, so of course he is going to accentuate the good things Its just the average punter cant see very many of them at the moment.

Moloney, Sylvia and Jurrah is 64 possessions and 8 goals of the last time we played Richmond in 2011. Arguably 3 of our 5 best players. I think its more than "may" improve things. Our backline and forwardline are fine, our mids lack clean hands and the courage to run both with and without the ball. Moving Watts and Howe to the midfield is a great idea that will have a excellent long term benefits . Getting Grimes in there also would not hurt. I do not understand this obsession with playing him deep back. Take the 3rd qtr out we played much improved football with some costly errors.

I go every week to watch my team and you think i care what you think idiot. You are pathetic we have no heart as a team and i will keep going you turd licker

Before the start of the game, as the players walked to their respective positions, I commented to my Brother, "If their body language is anything to go by we're in for a hiding". The players walked with their heads down and without any zest, or energy. I'm not a behavioral psychologist, but I've previously never felt the compunction to utter those words before a game. I'm a Neeld fan and won't lose my head 3 games in, but there's no doubt that he has some accountability to the way they're playing. Fear has a paralysis effect and I have no doubt that our players are playing in a fearful mentality, which is why they're not spreading and taking the game on. They're not wanting to make mistakes, which means they're too reactive and are devoid of any flare, or risk taking. Paralysis by analysis. Grant Thomas is a dolt, and he made a comment after round one that the coach may have already "lost the players". I don't think he has, but there is certainly a collective mentality that in part Neeld is responsible for. He has a lot of work to do, as does every member of the football department, to get some confidence back into this playing group. It won't be easy.

Where were we for the last 5 years? I was sitting at the Punt Road end suffering through another round of the 5 year rebuild to success. What changes in a week? 7 days ago we were belted in Perth by a "slick" Eagles side that is a genuine contender for the top four. This week we played at the MCG against a side that is ordinary by all estimation, but which has shared our recent lows. And we didn't just lose......WE WERE FLOGGED. I know we've been less than stellar for the last 5 years... I am gutted at the realisation from yesterday that I think we are in a worse position than we were when we started the rebuild. HTFU or wake up Well that's about perspective cobber.... harden up for me means not accepting all the blue sky bright side storytelling .

It's your stupid outrage that is preventing you from understanding the point I am trying to make. In what is meant to be a night for the club to be proud of the achievements of an incredible man who saved our club, it would hurt that much more to watch the team capitulate as they have in the last 3 weeks. Jim's memory won't be ruined by it, but the night will certainly be much poorer for it because we'll dominate the headlines for all the wrong reasons again. Put it this way, I am not looking forward to the team [censored] up another big occasion.

Melbourne has existed for 150 years. The club has been down a lot over nearly fifty years since the last premiership, somethimes a struggle i know, but it has survived. It will survive for the next 150 years. The only danger to its eventual survival is supporters throwing in the towel. You are as proud of your club as you allow yourself to be.

The fact is we're one win away from a rosy future. Don't let things get you down, buddy. Look for what's wrong with the place, but don't become overly pessimistic.

I've been watching Melbourne sides catch up on the score board when the PRESSURE has been off in the last quarter for 40 years.

That post is a disgrace, and what is worse is that you still don't recognise it. Jim Stynes' life will never be tainted by anyone elses actions and I won't let the team performance change my reflection of Jim's life on the day. I will be giving my respects regardless of any any selfish motives to see my footy team have a win. Hang your head in shame. I will delete these post as soon you delete your original one. FFS get a grip.

Morton's had a grand total of one game in a row under Mark Neeld. We're dying for some outside run and class, and we have at least a little of that in Morton. But because we're too stuck on his draft pick number, we don't allow him the opportunity to forge a new name for himself under a new coach. Surely we all accept that fear has some role in Morton's unwillingness to go hell-for-leather at the contest and back himself to play his natural game. I simply don't think we gain anything by dropping him back to the twos if that's the case. You don't lose your fear of the big-time if you never experience it with the confidence that your mistakes will not be punished with endless time in the VFL. Cale Morton may have had four years worth of games under Dean Bailey, but he's not our coach anymore. Mark Neeld is, and so we ought to adopt the same clean slate that he has.

Dropping blokes every week is not going to help the club. 2012 is going ot be a write off. Personally im not even interested in the win/loss record. I would like to see the club use this season purely as a year to see what the list has. Play these blokes all year. morton, bate, mckenzie etc. play everyone as much as possible then by rd 22 neeld and co, as well as us supporters will know exactly what this list potential is. then slash and burn as necessary. Sending these guys back to casey for half the season means another season gone and still not knowing if they have potential or not. id like to see morton play every game. if hes [censored] then its an easy decision. same with gysberts, bennell, strauss etc. 2012 should be used to get as many games as possible in to these guys. play seller at chf for 6 games. see what he does. put davey in the pocket for 6 weeks. theres no point continually dropping blokes out of emotion. one of the major reasons that the list is so underdeveloped is that these kids have been in oand out of the side like yo-yos for the last 3 years. this year is an opportunity. of course we want to win but we arent going for the flag so lets put em in, leave em in and see what we got

A couple of weeks ago Cameron Schwab posted on this site, saying that he keeps "an eye on Demonland as part of maintaining a feel for what our people are talking about." I hope he reads this thread and takes heed of the sentiment being expressed because it's very worrying in terms of the future of the club. I think we have no choice back to back Neeld as he walks on the razor's edge of changing the club culture and the cost of more pain for the supporters. But what we should demand of our CEO in return is blunt honesty and not to guild the lily in any way shape or form. The time for spin and fluff talk to Melbourne supporters is over.

We are the new fitzroy and im worried

Morton was nowhere near our worst and actually provided the team with something that we sorely lack - run. When we struggled badly with the spread from stoppages and contests, Morton ran bloody hard to provide and option. He had one or two turnovers, but that's all people remember. His hard running was actually very important and missing from many of his team mates.

2 things: The 3rd qtr was just like watching a game of keepings off. So many times a centre clearance came out to a Tiger player on their defensive side of the ruck, who had one or two options running forward at 45 degrees and away they went. When we say it's our midfield that stinks, (to me) it's not the entire midfield. It's the tap ruckman who starts the rot. Once the ball comes to ground (from an MFC ruckman) at the feet of an opponent rather than down the throat of our players, we have lost all advantage and none of our small midfielders had a chance to catch them. The Russian had his colours well and truly lowered today. On today's showing, Morton has improved. But he is still a putz. Granted, he is a better putz than he was, but it doesn't look like he will graduate out of putzville in the forseeable future. Time for us to cut the ties and find a better project to work on.

Sadly I'm with many in this thread - my youngest today after the game informed me I "now barrack for Hawthorn - Dad". However, after dinner tonight she is 50/50 but if we dont turn this around soon she is gone.

Agreed. It's frustrating when I read some of the rubbish written about him. It's only fair to read it back the other way as well.

I am not exempting Mark Neeld. But our midfield work is even worse than the Suns, and Royal is our man. Surely he has some serious questions to answer.

Do those who question Neeld at this early stage really think that anyone in football could have turned this rabble into a winning side over the pre-season? Would they rather have had Dean Bailey behind the wheel? It may be that we have gone backwards, but perhaps that is completely neccessary in order to move forward. We can't fix everything at once and we are a mere three rounds in. Behind the scenes they are working on a list of problems - and there are plenty of them. We have heard the new coach talking about trying to work on being more defensive for example - that doesn't happen overnight and no amount game day tweaking is going to instate this any quicker. I heard Leigh Brown on Grandstand before the game today. He was talking about our ball movement being the next focus and that they would working on some aspects of that today. Again, this will be no mean feat to implement and those of us able to look past the humiliation of today's defeat should have seen some beginnings of this change starting to happen. They over-corrected at times and overused of the ball but again this should be expected. In addition to the seemingly long list of on-field problems Neeld and his team have inherited, he has had the off field distractions and a major meltdown across the board from our senior players to contend with. Add to this some serious holes in our list and I think common sense should tell all of us what we are seeing is no surprise. We are long suffering but we should be rational given our current set of circumstances. These are not excuses and of course Neeld will ultimately be accountable, but lets pay some respect to the magnitude of the mess he has taken on.

I agree with all that you have written, but my concern is the trend of teams pounding us with uncontested footy and also on the scoreboard has been happening for 5 games straight(2 NAB), and there seems to be nothing being addressed to counter it. That is a coaches job, and some people may be talking about 5 year plans to fix it, but coaches are paid alot of money to come up with solutions on a week to week basis, so Neeld and Co. address the problem, and earn your paycheck.

I think you'll find every player hanballing to a man covered by a Richmond opponent Coz we don't run and spread. We have no interest in sheparding, bumping off the ball or creating options with any kind of movement. Morton at least tried and moved off the ball providing an opition. Can't blame the man who tried to be creative but sometimes ran into trouble and had nothing on offer to help him out Whipping boy syndrome this is. Lay blame on the easy target. He was not our worst and at least he tried something most others either didn't or couldn't.

I thought Morton to be a positive. He is the only MFC player to offer himself as an option with good run and spread. In pack situations he will run skirting the pack offering himself to receive the ball whilst on the run moving the ball forward. I'm sick of the midfield standing still calling for the ball only to be caught and tackled. We look slow because we are dumb in this area. I'm not sure of the stats but Morton creates space for himself providing an option for the ball carrier. His disposal was ok too.

Deck chairs on the Titanic but I cant think of a reason why Morton, Bate or Davey should be selected this week. I reckon Martin is gone too,

There are probably quite a few of us who still give just the smallest amount of crap...... Or at least there should be.

If MFC are in any way accountable then I cant see how Neeld can avoid the burners. The opposition was ordinary, we were soft and crud. The coach must wear. I feel for Neeld give the Mifsid incident and other off field issues but his honeymoon is well and truly over for the on field.

Disagree. I think some blame has to go to Neeld. We didn't get 12 goals worse in the space of one off season. We dominated this team, and the bombers... and now we look worse than a VFL team. SOME of the blame has to go to Neeld. His plan may work, but right now, I don't see how humiliation that hurts your club is actually HELPING.

Okay, let me qualify this. Our disposal, although at times having errors (including the handball into traffic problem, something we've done for a decade now) is not that bad. Our conversion - I50s to goals - is actually extremely good. The team, when they have the pill, is doing the right things. The problem is when we don't. Those that are willing to chase are too slow, and those that aren't are made to look useless. We fail to actually deliver a shepherd and thus protect a ball carrier. We cannot break down a spread-out run-and-carry - the same system that served us so well when we've demolished teams is now annihilating us. I genuinely can't look at today and say that any particular player was godawful. I can say a few were poor, some were quiet, but none had an absolute howler. Instead, it seems that the entire thing is based around our failure to operate once again without the footy in hand.

Arrange 'em any way you want ...

That's what's so depressing. You're right. Some things we're doing very well. Contested ball, Mitch is playing ok, certainly providing that contest we've been missing... We're following instructions... And yet?

I think we defend mediocrity too much at the Demons. How long do you think a Miller or a Morton would last on hawthorn's list?

You don't have to be a good footballer to chase................. Shouse.

He's had 4 years of playing in the seniors, how many more til he's not scared? BS excuse. Did Martin look scared today? No more excuses for that wet blanket, he just needs to make room on the list now. Done.

From Footywire: Low Rankings Ranked 16th in Kicks Per Game Ranked 18th in Handballs Per Game Ranked 18th in Disposals Per Game Ranked 16th in Marks Per Game Ranked 16th in Points Per Game Ranked 18th in Tackles Per Game Ranked 13th in Hitouts Per Game Ranked 17th in least Opponent Kicks Per Game Ranked 16th in least Opponent Handballs Per Game Ranked 17th in least Opponent Disposals Per Game Ranked 16th in least Opponent Marks Per Game Ranked 18th in least Opponent Points Per Game Ranked 14th in least Opponent Tackles Per Game Ranked 13th in least Opponent Hitouts Per Game Ranked 17th in Team to Opponent Kicks Per Game Diff. Ranked 17th in Team to Opponent Handballs Per Game Diff. Ranked 18th in Team to Opponent Disposals Per Game Diff. Ranked 17th in Team to Opponent Marks Per Game Diff. Ranked 16th in Team to Opponent Points Per Game Diff. Ranked 17th in Team to Opponent Tackles Per Game Diff. Ranked 13th in Team to Opponent Hitouts Per Game Diff. and this against two of last years bottom sides, unbelievable.

Was far from our worst today. Gave some run, made a few errors but give him a few games before writing him off this year. Just an easy target for the keyboard heros.