What good will Judd do to our spineless team?

[leucopogon 1,518]

Had a pretty good squiz at our list for the past hour or so and it made for frightening analysis.

Here's a summary:

Analysis

1) No true KPP in their prime (all are on-ballers, utilities or smalls)

2) Of the players approaching their prime only Miller could be considered a true KPP and he’s a fringe/stop-gap player now

Summary – a couple of good young KPP prospects are vital for the future

1) Ruck stocks are abysmal. Only decent ruckman is a veteran

2) All other ruckmen are young and/or fairly ineffective

Summary – Desperately need to get a ready made backup to White preferably 23-25 years old.

1) Players approaching their prime (23-25) are fairly lacklustre with the exception of Rivers and Davey. A real concern for the coming 2-3 seasons.

Summary – Looks like MFC will be likely to “bottom out” for the next season or two unless some decent ready-made KPP are traded for.

Our stocks in hard-nut midfielders is pretty high (ie. Jones, McLean, Moloney, Sylvia)

We need KPP badly. Judd can't win games on his own, especially if he becomes more injury prone with age. I just think that we're barking up the wrong tree chasing him and our list deficiencies are so obvious (KEY POSITION PLAYERS) that if we do any trading/high drafting it should be the KPP's that are targeted.

Hope my prediction of us bottoming out isn't right, but without a proper spine, I can't see us competing for a flag anytime soon.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Had a pretty good squiz at our list for the past hour or so and it made for frightening analysis.

Here's a summary:

Analysis

1) No true KPP in their prime (all are on-ballers, utilities or smalls)

2) Of the players approaching their prime only Miller could be considered a true KPP and he’s a fringe/stop-gap player now

Summary – a couple of good young KPP prospects are vital for the future

1) Ruck stocks are abysmal. Only decent ruckman is a veteran

2) All other ruckmen are young and/or fairly ineffective

Summary – Desperately need to get a ready made backup to White preferably 23-25 years old.

1) Players approaching their prime (23-25) are fairly lacklustre with the exception of Rivers and Davey. A real concern for the coming 2-3 seasons.

Summary – Looks like MFC will be likely to “bottom out” for the next season or two unless some decent ready-made KPP are traded for.

Our stocks in hard-nut midfielders is pretty high (ie. Jones, McLean, Moloney, Sylvia)

We need KPP badly. Judd can't win games on his own, especially if he becomes more injury prone with age. I just think that we're barking up the wrong tree chasing him and our list deficiencies are so obvious (KEY POSITION PLAYERS) that if we do any trading/high drafting it should be the KPP's that are targeted.

Hope my prediction of us bottoming out isn't right, but without a proper spine, I can't see us competing for a flag anytime soon.

No true KPP in their prime (all are on-ballers, utilities or smalls)

Of the players approaching their prime only Miller could be considered a true KPP and he’s a fringe/stop-gap player now

Well said.

[Coxy 0]

...

Totally agree. And this would be one of the reasons that make the dee's unappealing for Judd.

However, would you prefer judd or no judd?

[leucopogon 1,518]

Totally agree. And this would be one of the reasons that make the dee's unappealing for Judd.

However, would you prefer judd or no judd?

I'd like to have Judd for sure, but for what it's likely to cost us as a team financially and in terms of lost picks and/or trading of ready-mades like Jones or Brock I don't know if its worth the punt.

The counter argument I suppose is that if we do snare Judd perhaps other ready mades might be attracted to joining us in the future.

[Coxy 0]

You make a very good point

I have been pondering this all day, can loosing a quality player and pick 4 be justified to get judd. Even if we do get him, at the end of the day we still have ALOT of holes

[leucopogon 1,518]

Despite everything that's been written on all these Judd threads, my gut feeling is that its going to boil down to simple dollars & cents so I think Collingwood, Carlton or Essendon are probably the most likely to lure him.

I think we should look at trading a combination of these guys (Trapper, Bruce, Green/Robbo) to other clubs to secure a decent KPP, a young ready made ruckman, and/or some more 1st round picks. Like dee-luded has said on another thread "the group that's 25 or older now isn't good enough to lead us to a flag so we should cash in on them while they're still worth something"

[praha 11,131]

I posted a thread like this, saying that I thought we would bomb out again next year. We're going to struggle for a year or

two, with Judd or without. Not "Carlton" bad, but more like "Essendon/Brisbane Lions over the past 2-3 years" bad, which ain't that bad, but ain't that good either.

[leucopogon 1,518]

I posted a thread like this, saying that I thought we would bomb out again next year. We're going to struggle for a year or

two, with Judd or without. Not "Carlton" bad, but more like "Essendon/Brisbane Lions over the past 2-3 years" bad, which ain't that bad, but ain't that good either.

Agreed. Isn't this trade week going to be interesting though?

[Real Demon 232]

I can't agree.......sure we have a few gaps in our team, but what team doesn't? (Apart from maybe Geelong)

Port Adelaide......previously a forward, now holding down full back for prelim possibly grand final team in Toby Thurstans. CHF.....Westhoff.......FF......an aging an battle weary Tredrea.

Kangaroos.........prelim team.....full forward.......Edwards........CHF.......Petrie......hardly breathtaking!

Gun ruckman though in McIntosh

Collingwood..........Rocca.......servicable.......goes missing though.......Cloke very good up and comer...........backline........Clement.......good player, but not quite KPP........who is their FB......Presti........no Goldsack............and their rucks........Fraser / Bryan / Richards.......bloody average IMO!

So after all that........my point is.......an in form and fit team, with players playing for each other and understanding their roles, and well coached will still succeed, even if they don't have all the "perfect" pieces to a top team.

You bring Judd in, and without doubt he will be of assistance! He would add to a midfield that when fit and firing, is the envy of many clubs!

[Yze_Magic 3]

Had a pretty good squiz at our list for the past hour or so and it made for frightening analysis.

Here's a summary:

Analysis

1) No true KPP in their prime (all are on-ballers, utilities or smalls)

2) Of the players approaching their prime only Miller could be considered a true KPP and he’s a fringe/stop-gap player now

Summary – a couple of good young KPP prospects are vital for the future

1) Ruck stocks are abysmal. Only decent ruckman is a veteran

2) All other ruckmen are young and/or fairly ineffective

Summary – Desperately need to get a ready made backup to White preferably 23-25 years old.

1) Players approaching their prime (23-25) are fairly lacklustre with the exception of Rivers and Davey. A real concern for the coming 2-3 seasons.

Summary – Looks like MFC will be likely to “bottom out” for the next season or two unless some decent ready-made KPP are traded for.

Our stocks in hard-nut midfielders is pretty high (ie. Jones, McLean, Moloney, Sylvia)

We need KPP badly. Judd can't win games on his own, especially if he becomes more injury prone with age. I just think that we're barking up the wrong tree chasing him and our list deficiencies are so obvious (KEY POSITION PLAYERS) that if we do any trading/high drafting it should be the KPP's that are targeted.

Hope my prediction of us bottoming out isn't right, but without a proper spine, I can't see us competing for a flag anytime soon.

Umm do you realise Judd is 24? And has another 7-8 seasons in him?

Build a spine around him

[sylvinator 96]

Key forwards for the future:

Bate- honestly he showed this year that he could become a star CHF. has sticky hands, a powerful kick a good goal sense and good footy brain. people who say he is too short are just stupid. he is 191cm! Pavlich is 190cm, Carey was 190cm, Carrol is 188cm, Glass in 192cm, Neitz is 192cm, Campbell Brown 177cm...firstly guyz, we are talking about 1-3 cm here. it really isnt that much. secondly, guyz like Campbell Brown and Pavlich have proven that ability is the most important thing. Bate has bucket loads of it, and could easily become a star CHF

Newton- a future FF. we wont see his best for 2 years probably, but showed that he can be a key forward for the future. he a good mark, a good kick for goal and is clever. He is able to do freak things.

Dunn- not sure where he'll end up. tall midfielder, mobile-key forward? who knows, but we shouldnt discount his becoming a mobile type 3rd tall forward or mobile CHF. i like the kid.

NOTE: We still have Neitz and Robbo who are forwards who will kick 40-50 goals a year. P.Johnson could maybe be a wildcard here but i doubt it.

Key defenders for the future:

Rivers: future AllAustralia CHB. give him a preseason and he will star.

Frawley: hopefully our future fullback. has loads of promise and ability. is VERY raw, but which fullbacks aren't at 18yrs old? has all the attributes to be a great key defender. He has pace, a strong mark, is tall and agile with quite good decision making ability.

Garland: this kid could not be more raw, but from what id seen/heard from the reports at Sandringham is that he could be a real player for the future. could become a key back given 2 yrs of developing.

Carrol- is steady as Fullback. is no star, but rarely gets thrashed, and in 2006 was one of the best backman in the afl. he has ability. i dont mind him but would prefer him to be 3rd tall back.

Warnock: i dont think this kid will make it, but who knows only time will tell.

I think you'll find that our key posts aren't as bad as you might think at first glance...

[biggestred 4,823]

get mcguire from the saints in

[sylvinator 96]

and btw, we will probably go for a midfielder with pick 4.

which ever midfielder we go for, Ebert, MAsten or Palmer, you can be 99% sure they will be half the player Judd is...that is why Judd is our man! our key position stocks are not that bad.

i have faith in Rivers, Frawley, Bate, Newton, Garland, Dun etcetcetc

[deanox 9,693]

regarding caroll.

most backment will get smashed when the midfield gets smashed (ie this year against brisbane). but when the mid is on top the backs look good. there is pressure on the ball carrier, meaning passes arent pinpointed. there is less time to set up space, and your mids have more time to shut it down when on the rebound. we got smashed in the centre this year making carrol look stupid at times. he is no star, but if our midfield gets on the park, fit and injury free carolls workload is cut by half.

just dont ever, ever, play him on kent kingsly...

[mo64 5,506]

This is why player development is so important. I read recently that Collingwood may discontinue its alliance with Williamstown, even though their relationship has been a good one. They want full control of player development.

Dean Bailey mentioned that part of the teaching process is having your youngsters believe and play like a 50 game player, even if they only played 10. It would have been hard for Juice to have this mindset rotting away in the Sandy 2nds in the previous 2 years, whilst watching Nick Sauntner play in the seniors. I question the value of our alliance with Sandy, mainly because their success is based around older players, ie; Liddell, Sauntner, Gallagher, Poyas, Crowe, Lamb, none of whom made it at AFL level.

[deanox 9,693]

This is why player development is so important. I read recently that Collingwood may discontinue its alliance with Williamstown, even though their relationship has been a good one. They want full control of player development.

Dean Bailey mentioned that part of the teaching process is having your youngsters believe and play like a 50 game player, even if they only played 10. It would have been hard for Juice to have this mindset rotting away in the Sandy 2nds in the previous 2 years, whilst watching Nick Sauntner play in the seniors. I question the value of our alliance with Sandy, mainly because their success is based around older players, ie; Liddell, Sauntner, Gallagher, Poyas, Crowe, Lamb, none of whom made it at AFL level.

lets not get into the juice sautner argument again. he wasnt ready, he wasnt good enough. if we had a stand alone seconds he would have been playing in their reserves. or perhaps he would have been running drinks.

[leucopogon 1,518]

You guys are doing a mighty fine job of bringing me round on the Judd Bandwagon.

Of our up and coming KPP, I have faith in probably only Bate and Rivers.

The rest are all too early to tell or will be depth at best in my opinion. Only time will tell, but that's it... time is what its going to take and I'd say at least 2 or 3 seasons before the Brock/Jonesy/Bate/Sylvia/Bell/Rivers are all in their prime.

Judd would be good, but i think at least one ready made KPP and/or a ruckman will also be vital for us if we want any sort of immediate success.