12 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

Occam's Razor for mine is that we lost Jackson and wanted to recreate that dynamic and Grundy was available at a discount so we went for it.

Probably realised during pre-season the same dynamic wouldn't work, which is why when we were asked about what our plans were we kind of handwaved it and just said "we had ideas". Those ideas formulated as the two sharing the ruck duties between 50/50 and 60/40 and the other never really getting into the game when the other was being the main man. We were trying to win a flag so we abandoned the experiment mid-season and did a hail mary of trying to turn Grundy into a forward.

Completely plausible. And I distinctly remember the handwaving.

But how did they get it so wrong? I've argued elsewhere, Goodwin may have become preoccupied by stats, but a couple of stats might have raised alarm bells on this one.

The Jackson-Gawn combo worked incredibly well, but Jackson never got above 40% CBA in 2021 and once above 50% in 2022 (when Gawn didn't play).

Gawn has never kicked more than 16 goals in a season in his career. Grundy has never kicked more than 12.

By 2022, Grundy's contested marking had gone from respectable - above average, probably - to consistently outside the top ten for rucks and outside the top 50 in the league.

It’s going to be a long offseason is this BS thread is anything to go by

Gawn is the problem now hey? lol

17 hours ago, whatwhat say what said:

https://demonland.com/forums/forum/38-trade-draft-free-agency/

https://youtu.be/hKMBtu1XMcc?si=wJaMF8CZpB01Xu2e

Just now, bush demon said:

48 minutes ago, DubDee said:

It’s going to be a long offseason is this BS thread is anything to go by

Gawn is the problem now hey? lol

It's like visiting the grassy knoll here at times, sadly. It's the old 80/20 rule I suppose, but the 20% have worn me down. An infrequent visitor nowadays.

1 hour ago, rpfc said:

I expect more from captains.

8 AA’s and best player nearly every week, plus being the face of our mess in the media, as well as mentoring mentally ill team mates not enough for you?

In 2021 we really did seem to be channeling the be a great teammate, selfless stuff really well.

Since then there have just been a lot of reports that suggest guys thinking about themselves, the position they'd like to play and so on, and i know that's just normal human nature type stuff.

I'd love to see the new coach get us back to "I don't care if i get zero kicks, if it helps the team win the game"

16 minutes ago, Redleg said:

8 AA’s and best player nearly every week, plus being the face of our mess in the media, as well as mentoring mentally ill team mates not enough for you?

Nope, I would gladly hand over a couple of those AAs for another 20 goals a season and Grundy being an effective ruck as Goodwin intended.

I am being slightly facetious and fanciful with the counter factual but we have never really dealt with what happened with that great waste of time and effort to get Grundy and I think it was costly.

6 hours ago, rpfc said:

Max will simply end his career in a blaze of glory in the next few as his knees give out for the last time. Shouldering the ruck, carrying the team and winning AAs incessantly.

Edited for accuracy.

It's always interesting hearing about the Gawn/Grundy comments on the board.

I was lucky enough to have a great chat with Brodie a few months back at an event with Sydney. He's an absolutely fantastic bloke for a yarn.

I told him I was a Dees supporter and he opened up a bit and had nothing but positive stories about his time with us. He did have a laugh saying that neither Gawn or himself were "Carey like" as forwards and was well aware from the beginning that he'd always be the one making way if the forward/ruck system wasn't working out.

I really didn't get any impression from him that we didn't deliver on what was promised or planned to him. He seemed very at peace with his time in the red and blue.

He said he was still very close with Maxy but said something like "I'll always pencil in the dees game each year to try take the big fella down" with a big grin on his face.

He clearly had no hard feelings.

2 hours ago, rpfc said:

One can hope.

But Max walks on water to most.

He seemed to be the unofficial mouth piece of the club every time there was any disruption. Whether this was board level, executive changes, coach sackings etc. Everyone seemed to gravitate to him for his opinion as he does speak well to the common folk like myself.

A few times when an issue seemed to be bubbling, he was able to deflate it quite quickly which is why people's opinion of him is even far more glowing than that of just a good player.

2 hours ago, Ghostwriter said:

Herein lies the problem.

How great Max is goes without saying. But no one is without flaws. Those flaws don’t detract from the greatness, but they do exist.

He is great and will be remembered as one of the greats but I agree he still has a major flaw around his goal kicking. I get confused how players cannot improve such an incredibly important skill - especially one that can completely sap the momentum out of the play.

I have no doubt Max has an ego and was probably incredibly driven (some might think selfishly) to go hard for his Eighth AA blazer. All I know is that we're a far better team when he's playing well so if the things to motivate him to greatness than so be.

I only wish a few others had the same motivation looking after themselves the same.

Back on topic - clearly this is a no. As if anyone who's 'one wood' as a ruckman is considering coming to the dees.

Edited yesterday at 04:291 day by Deeko2

I for one am NOT bagging Max. I’m NOT saying everything is his fault. Nothing of the sort.

What I AM saying is *Max gets what Max wants and what Max doesn’t want ain’t happening.

On this occasion I’m referring ONLY to our ruck situation.

Go ahead and shoot the messenger if you must. If you don’t like what you hear by all means question it, but please don’t dismiss it as garbage.

*This is a direct quote from an assistant coach, and was also said in different words (same sentiment) by members of the training staff. In fact, I’ve heard similar said by at least half a dozen people. FWIW I don’t like hearing it either but that doesn’t change the situation.

Another thing: (Rightly or wrongly) I’ve long been accused of blindly defending our players and I own that, I admit I do this. The one time I said a negative thing about a player (pre-injury Tracc) I was howled down, so why on earth would I invite a repeat of that?

And here’s where I bow out of this conversation.

Never would we see the day me going into bat for @Ghostwriter but she is 100% correct regarding Max.

What is portrayed in the media is completely different to the Max Gawn behind close doors. I can understand why she wont let out too much on this because yes, majority wont either like what they read or refuse to believe that Max actually has flaws as a captain and a person.

Then there is the fear of backlash that @rpfc because God forbid if we can ever question the ever so perfect gawn.

I've spoken to two current palyers at the same time about this last off season when they were back home during the Christmas break. We discussed all the issues that the club went through and some if the things about Gawn were very interesting to hear indeed.

Max has been given too much leeway in calling the shots at the club and not stayed in his own lane. Unfortunately when you have someone like Goodwin who was far too close to the players and wasn't willing to pull players up and set a few egos on track then of course there is player disconnect.

Hopefully someone like a Buckley with a completely clean slate will change all of this.

Edited yesterday at 05:111 day by dazzledavey36

7 minutes ago, Ghostwriter said:

What I AM saying is *Max gets what Max wants and what Max doesn’t want ain’t happening.

You know I love and respect you as a poster, but Max did NOT want Grundy to come, and it still happened.

And as alluded to above, neither holds any hard feelings towards the other because while both failed to make the partnership work, I think both acknowledge why it didn't work and have great respect for each other.

Is there an element of Max running the show? Absolutely.
But unfortunately when you expect one player to be the captain, the PR manager, the voice of reason, and everything else in between, this is the result.

The club has relied far too much on Gawn to do everything, and nobody else has stepped up to help. Not within the playing group, and not within the FD.

We have a footy manager who we rarely see front the media, much less when things go wrong. Goody did what he had to do in the media, but was canned for his lack of 'personality' in front of the camera.
And since Gus left, we have not had a single senior player step up to the plate to take the burden off Max. So if Max feels like he runs the show, is that on Max or is that on a club that relies so heavily on him to do just that?

I can't think of a single other club who relies so heavily on one player to represent them on every level... maybe Bont?
And I don't know how much work Bont does behind the scenes at the Dogs, but I know how much Max does and IMO it is completely beyond the realms of what should be required of any player, even a captain.

Again I know you are passing on what you hear in good faith, but I do wonder how much those who think "what Max wants Max gets", have done to help ease the burden he's carrying? Perhaps if they helped to run the place, things would be different.

And this is not ignoring the fact that Max undoubtedly has a big ego and a big personality, and has happily taken on this role for many years because he enjoys being 'Top Dog'. And like every other player, and human, he has flaws and would rub people up the wrong way. Strong leaders often do.

Edited yesterday at 05:181 day by Jaded No More

2 hours ago, rpfc said:

Nope, I would gladly hand over a couple of those AAs for another 20 goals a season and Grundy being an effective ruck as Goodwin intended.

I am being slightly facetious and fanciful with the counter factual but we have never really dealt with what happened with that great waste of time and effort to get Grundy and I think it was costly.

It was a mess.

2 hours ago, rpfc said:

I am being slightly facetious and fanciful with the counter factual but we have never really dealt with what happened with that great waste of time and effort to get Grundy and I think it was costly.

I agree it was a huge waste of time and effort, and was costly.

But I'm interested in the counterfactual. How do you, and others who think it was mostly Max's fault, think it could have turned out if Gawn had been more... I don't know... accommodating?

3 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

You know I love and respect you as a poster, but Max did NOT want Grundy to come, and it still happened.

And as alluded to above, neither holds any hard feelings towards the other because while both failed to make the partnership work, I think both acknowledge why it didn't work and have great respect for each other.

Is there an element of Max running the show? Absolutely.
But unfortunately when you expect one player to be the captain, the PR manager, the voice of reason, and everything else in between, this is the result.

The club has relied far too much on Gawn to do everything, and nobody else has stepped up to help. Not within the playing group, and not within the FD.

We have a footy manager who we rarely see front the media, much less when things go wrong. Goody did what he had to do in the media, but was canned for his lack of 'personality' in front of the camera.
And since Gus left, we have not had a single senior player step up to the plate to take the burden off Max. So if Max feels like he runs the show, is that on Max or is that on a club that relies so heavily on him to do just that?

I can't think of a single other club who relies so heavily on one player to represent them on every level... maybe Bont?
And I don't know how much work Bont does behind the scenes at the Dogs, but I know how much Max does and IMO it is completely beyond the realms of what should be required of any player, even a captain.

Again I know you are passing on what you hear in good faith, but I do wonder how much those who think "what Max wants Max gets", have done to help ease the burden he's carrying? Perhaps if they helped to run the place, things would be different.

And this is not ignoring the fact that Max undoubtedly has a big ego and a big personality, and has happily taken on this role for many years because he enjoys being 'Top Dog'. And like every other player, and human, he has flaws and would rub people up the wrong way. Strong leaders often do.

So not absolute garbage

3 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Never would we see the day me going into bat for @Ghostwriter but she is 100% correct regarding Max.

What is portrayed in the media is completely different to the Max Gawn behind close doors. I can understand why she wont let out too much on this because yes, majority wont either like what they read or refuse to believe that Max actually has flaws as a captain and a person.

Then there is the fear of backlash that @rpfc because God forbid if we can ever question the ever so perfect gawn.

I've spoken to two current palyers at the same time about this last off season when they were back home during the Christmas break. We discussed all the issues that the club went through and some if the things about Gawn were very interesting to hear indeed.

Max has been given too much leeway in calling the shots at the club and not stayed in his own lane. Unfortunately when you have someone like Goodwin who was far too close to the players and wasn't willing to pull players up and set a few egos on track then of course there is player disconnect.

Hopefully someone like a Buckley with a completely clean slate will change all of this.

I heard similar and specifically around Grundy - Gawn would not relent and waived away Goodwins desire to adjust his game but also wasn’t up front with how he would not relent before Goodwin made that fateful move.

Some ask about the cost - how about this for a counterfactual - put all that effort and trade capital and $$$ into a tall forward…

It makes my blood boil.

4 hours ago, old55 said:

Edited for accuracy.

I prefer flags

7 minutes ago, rpfc said:

Some ask about the cost - how about this for a counterfactual - put all that effort and trade capital and $$$ into a tall forward…

It makes my blood boil.

How do you know we didn’t throw a lot of that capital and money at a key forward first and failed?

How do you know that Gawn didn’t do a mountain of work to try and convince a quality tall forward to come across to us before we even spoke with Grundy?

Surprise, sometimes best laid plans fail.

Nobody ever denied Gawn has a big ego or that he has a lot of sway within the club. The suggestion that he’s damaging the club, or stopping us succeeding, or scaring away players because of that is utter garbage.

We played Schache as a useless sub in a final because Grundy was already renting houses in Sydney while we were trying to win a flag. Perhaps some blame can fall on Grundy? Or maybe on the coaches who thought those two could magically turn into forwards?

On 03/09/2025 at 21:21, rpfc said:

Gawn has made it quite clear he can’t and won’t coexist with an another ruck so there would be nothing to this EVEN if the far fetched idea of Marshall wanting to come was true.

So, there is an "i" in team after all

The Rohan Marshall thread. 👏

1 hour ago, Adam The God said:

The Rohan Marshall thread. 👏

Heard he has bought a tractor.

4 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Heard he has bought a tractor.

I think we can genuinely cross Rowan off our wish list, hope he stays at Saints, TDK will need his assistance if they want to be competitive.

On 03/09/2025 at 21:21, rpfc said:

Gawn has made it quite clear he can’t and won’t coexist with an another ruck so there would be nothing to this EVEN if the far fetched idea of Marshall wanting to come was true.

(If true), getting a bit uppity for the help. A bad precedent even if he is one of the greatest Demons ever.

Edited 6 hours ago6 hr by redandbluemakepurple

On 03/09/2025 at 23:20, rpfc said:

No he won’t. Goodwin got Brodie effing Grundy to allow Gawn to build a forward aspect to his role and he could not or would not do it. It would have allowed Gawn to have a Paul Salmon like end to his career and play till he is 40 but now Max will simply end his career in a puff of smoke in the next few as his knees give out for the last time. Shouldering the ruck incessantly and unnecessarily.

Yep that about sums it up! In fact if Grundy had of played in any of the finals in 23 Goodwin might have been a two premiership coach and still be coach! One of the worst if not worst decision ever made by MFC!

Edited 5 hours ago5 hr by picket fence