On 02/08/2024 at 04:12, Little Richard said:

I think Goody has to make some changes (from my very humble point of view). I'd love to see him get a little more creative with tactics and player positions, and change the way he uses the sub. But I'm not convinced we need a new coach right now. I can't see anyone on the open market offering more than he does at the moment. Plus, having to deal with all the [censored] that comes with finding and adjusting to a new coach is exhausting.

Nothing is going to happen if we don’t put some energy and enterprise in either way. You seem too exhausted to be worried and Thsts not going to solve the situation.

New coach new approach and every one is on their toes and up and about. There is a need for this to happen a new broom to sweep some old and overused plans.

The same with some new players who will bring fresh life and ideas to the squad. 

12 hours ago, demon3165 said:

And who's game plan is it? Just a simple question. 

Oh no : not you again....

54 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

I dunno, for me,  Bont doesnt seem to stand up in finals when it counts... he is the Thierry Henri of AFL...

Exactly. It's 3 years ago now, but on the best day ever the commentators were praising Bont to the skies- then Clarry went on to him, Bont was not heard from again, while we all know what Clarry did. 
 

As for our list, it is not built for a far run and carry game. Even Trac, absolute champion that he is, does not have the necessary disposal skills and as for Clarry and JV7, well, they are champions for other reasons. But our game plan is fine. Other teams play their way, we play our way. The way everyone carries on as if we were hopeless last year when we came SOOOOO close despite a ridiculous number of injuries to our forwards - well, as far as I am concerned, our game plan stacks up.

 

This year injuries have done us again. Time and again posters talk about our lack of depth.  Don't they realise that playing the WHOLE year 3 players down from our allowed amount - Gus Smith and Spargo - means that the depth we should have had at Casey is now in our firsts - players like Woey, Howes, AMW, Tholstrup ....   We have the depth; it's just that we have had to call on it.

Goody won't go. Kate thinks he's great. 

17 hours ago, bing181 said:

JS, who in spite of everything was our best forward in the 23 finals (though forward line was decimated in any case, even Fritsch wasn't right after his injury).

Sparrow - who has his detractors here, but would have at least given us some options and is still our best I50 kick.

Ben Brown - no reason why he couldn't have given us 40+ goals a year and been a foil for JVR if his body had held up. He's only 31, same age as (e.g.) Jeremy Cameron. And you look at players like Taylor Walker (34) or even Tom Hawkins (36), there should have been plenty more good footy there.

Salem: was a key to our 21 premiership, his experience, leadership and disposal smarts are sorely missed down back. And having hm playing (decently) would have freed up Judd for more midfield time.

Plus:

Viney not right/carrying a shoulder.

Bowey hasn't been right since his shoulder and missing so much footy.

The team/list is completely shot, regardless of what the injury list says.

Why dees fans would choose to ignore these obvious facts is beyond me.

Acknowledging the impact of starting the season two best 22 players down (gus and smith - so essentially a list of 42 not 44), multiple senoir players having had interrupted preseasons (bb, tmac, McAdams, hunter, salo, oliver, spargo) and in season injury (bowey, Lever, may, salo, melksham,viney,Turner, McAdam, spargo, hunter, hore, Petty, Windsor, Gawn and tracc) doesn't mean you can't still think we are on the wrong path with goody or are no good.

It does mean any such argument is more credible.

Injury and conditioning are the two the biggest determinants of success.

The first had always been the case and the latter is becoming increasingly critical with the shift to the game being about turnoversall but complete.

Just look at the swans. World beaters until recently.

The premiership favourites have now lost what four of 5 games and just got flogged by 112 poimts.

112 points - by a team we beat.

What's changed?

Injury.

Edited August 4, 2024Aug 4 by binman

8 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

You do know Goodys time will eventually come and yes we'll have to look for a coach. So the talk isn't exactly crazy as you think. Like most have said, he won't be sacked at all anytime soon.

You've named Simpson even though I just said that are untried assistant coaches out there like an Adam Kingsley or a Craig McRea who could come in a rejuvenate a playing list exactly like these guys have. 

Our game has been contest and defence which since 2021 has not gotten us anyway. Forget too 4 finishes. You mean absolutely nothing if you're literally not winning at September and then about to miss finals purely because we've been heavily focused on this whole contest defence where Goody has not shown to actually find the balance.

The game has completely changed since 2021. It is more of an attacking style that teams are running with that focuses on being able to drive offence first but also defend hard when need to. 

Look at teams like GWS, Freo, Hawthorn and now the doggies and then Collingwood last year. This is the new game style where quick ball movement is crucial in being able to piece through a defensive back 6 by attacking in waves.

We absolutely have the list built for this, unfortunately our coaching department are too stubborn to change and now it's cost us 3 years in a row.

 

 

58 minutes ago, demon3165 said:

Agree with what you have said except the list part, we have players who lack kicking skills, decision making skills, players who panic with the ball under pressure and are one paced.

I will also say this, after watching Friday nights game there is a big huge difference between the Bont and Oliver I just hope Oliver has not reached the ceiling with his game.

SG has obviously tried this season to change to a faster running and kicking style.  Then due to injuries/outs and lack of skills has reverted to some sort of horrible mishmash that is not a style at all.  On the bad days it's a putrid form of football that's slow, laborious, predictable, easy to defend and easier to overrun.  

He obviously wants to change up, but I don't think he knows how and the really poor effort suggests lots of players have lost faith in "the brand" and the coach. 

The players don't know what they're doing any more.  It's not great contest and we're not even getting that frustrating territorial dominance any more.  I'm sure lots of you were sickened listening to BT saying that we hadn't had a forward 50 entry in the first quarter.  

So we're left in limbo with the worst of all worlds.  Like another poster said, I'd hate to be drafted into such a rigorous negative, restrictive defensive minded system.  Freedom and creativity is discouraged and that was fine when midfield and defensive lines were strong enough to limit teams to 60 points per game.  

When waves of half backs blast through our midfield our defence is now regularly under siege.  So we're now seeing desperate panicked clearances, mistakes and hack kicks and hospital hand passes.  If Ugle Hagan could kick last week I think I counted seven or eight goals he could have kicked by himself.  That would have been really ugly.  

People who say he's unlikely to go anywhere are probably right, but I was really annoyed when his tenure was extended in the first place so I'll be more unhappy if that plan is stubbornly adhered to and we keep sliding.  

So how much of these type of uncompetitive losses should we tolerate?  They're not the Melbourne brand that he talks about. 

How many chances should someone get to learn and improve and how often should we reward mediocrity and failure?

I don't care about top four except for home finals and the double chance.  Finals and flags are what counts.  This year is another failure and few of us are really confident about 2025. 

I also don't care that he's mates with them and they like him.  That's fine if we're winning and competitive, but it's harder for someone in that position to make tough calls required to lead.  That closeness might be why we see the same minimal weekly changes and bizarre favouring of certain players and banishment of others.  Maybe a close mate is not what's needed to fire up players before the first bounce and maybe it's harder to take advice and guidance from a friend? 

A change will come eventually so why wait?  Does it require the embarassment of wooden spoons across our backsides for people to change their minds?  That would be more damaging for the club and fanbase than a change of coaches.  

Last week was horrible as was West Coast, Freo x 2, Collingwood and I hate seeing us so uncompetitive and directionless.

12 hours ago, Roost it far said:

I’d say the Pies will finish outside the 8 with us and their list profile is worse than ours. 

Their list has some big age concerns and Carlton could’ve ended their season last night but I appreciate the way they’ve done their absolute best to support an ageing midfield group in season. We’ve done nothing to add fresh legs to a team that looked dangerously short of running depth all year.

8 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Their list has some big age concerns and Carlton could’ve ended their season last night but I appreciate the way they’ve done their absolute best to support an ageing midfield group in season. We’ve done nothing to add fresh legs to a team that looked dangerously short of running depth all year.

Really? We added ANB and Rivers to midfield. What do you mean we've done nothing to add fresh legs?

12 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

Really? We added ANB and Rivers to midfield. What do you mean we've done nothing to add fresh legs?

And koz taken 10 plus centre bounces on multiple occasions this season.

41 minutes ago, binman said:

What's changed?

Injury.

Nah.  They’re doing heavy loading.  Not joking either.

PS Not an excuse, just a reason…

Edited August 4, 2024Aug 4 by Watson11

9 minutes ago, binman said:

And koz taken 10 plus centre bounces on multiple occasions this season.

I thought DS meant as rhe season progressed whatdid we'd to add fresh legs. Koz' mid minutes have probably reduced as the season has progressed, right?

24 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

Really? We added ANB and Rivers to midfield. What do you mean we've done nothing to add fresh legs?

Mid season draft maybe...

47 minutes ago, binman said:

Just look at the swans. World beaters until recently.

The premiership favourites have now lost what four of 5 games and just got flogged by 112 poimts.

112 points - by a team we beat.

What's changed?

Injury.

 

With respect Binman that is no reason for the Top side to lose by over 100 points, apart from Papley and Amartey the had almost had a full strength team.

There is still time for Sydney but assuming their season falls off a cliff questions will need to be asked; after 12 years at the helm.

1 minute ago, rjay said:

Mid season draft maybe...

Would a mid season draft pick been able to play serious mid minutes? I know guys like Newcombe have come in during season and slotted into an AFL midfield, but that was a bottom 3 team.

1 hour ago, Watson11 said:

Nah.  They’re doing heavy loading.  Not joking either.

PS Not an excuse, just a reason…

I agree that is very likely, and said as much last week.

As you say, not an excuse just a factor.

(And I wouldn't sleep on the blues or pies for the same reason- I reckon both have got upside in terms of their running power)

But even so losing they probably win a couple of those games if not for injury. And certainly not torched by 112 points. 

On loading, teams that can't cover the ground (either because of loading, or as i think is the case with us just not fit enough) are getting torched this season with all teams playing transition, turnover football.

Running power, stamina and ability to cover the ground at speed have become absolutely critical.

As hoyne has frequently pointed out on sen, 16 of the last 17 premiers have been top 4 in scores from turnover (we were the exception in 2021).

Our opponents have ruthlessly exploited our lack of spread in the last few weeks as evidenced by the huge diff in uncontested possessions.

As someone who punts on line bets, I closely follow margins and the margins this year have been extreme.

So many good teams getting blown out by really big margins.

@WheeloRatings do you have any easily accessible data on margins this year compared to previous years. 

Edited August 4, 2024Aug 4 by binman

14 minutes ago, Jibroni said:

 

With respect Binman that is no reason for the Top side to lose by over 100 points, apart from Papley and Amartey the had almost had a full strength team.

There is still time for Sydney but assuming their season falls off a cliff questions will need to be asked; after 12 years at the helm.

Fair points.

Getting flogged by port by 112 points when on top of the ladder near season's end is nuts.

 

4 minutes ago, binman said:

Fair points.

Getting flogged by port by 112 points when on top of the ladder near season's end is nuts.

 

For the record I am a fan of Goodwin, but our conditioning really needs to be addressed in the summer.

17 minutes ago, binman said:

On loading,

This is interesting.

Hannebery said last Sunday that the Swans were loading.

He said just adding a little bit to the training is enough to flatten you on match day.

Someone else, can't remember if it was Hodge or Sanderson said clubs don't do loading anymore as the season is now too long and physically hard. They get their loading match days.

So, who knows.

...but I wouldn't think it's an excuse for a loss like last nights unless they are flogging to absolute s... out of them on the track.

edit: and I don't think loading is very sexy for the experts as it takes away a lot of their analysis. Think of all the fun they will be having over the Swans this week. They've been worked out, there turnover game is in disarray, Is Longmire the right guy?

Edited August 4, 2024Aug 4 by rjay

Oh dear.

We're still loading when finals has been shot and players are banged up.

There's excuses and then there's this. 

I've heard it all now @middleagedemon

Edited August 4, 2024Aug 4 by dazzledavey36

12 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Go through the coaches of the better sides this year:

1. Longmire's just "coached" Sydney to a 112 point loss. In consecutive weeks they've kicked a total of 12 goals, 3 of which came in the last 10 minutes of junk time last week. This from a side with about two best 22 players missing and with the so-called unbeatable midfield of Heeney, Warner and Gulden. Just one flag, none for 12 years.
2. Fagan's had his side up for 6 seasons now without a flag. Even if he wins it this year, that's no more than Goodwin
3. Longmuir is unproven and has only made the finals once so far
4. Hinkley was booed off his home ground five weeks ago and has had the job for 10 years without even a GF appearance, let alone a flag
5. Chris Scott has two flags, but it took him 11 years to get the second one, despite having a list with Hawkins, Selwood, Dangerfield, Cameron, Stewart etc. on it
6. Beveridge is 8 years post his flag without a second one, despite a list with the game's best player on it and a midfield that bats deeper than anyone's. Missed the finals last year, and when they're struggling resorts to pot-shots in the media and dropping players out of nowhere
7. Voss is struggling to even qualify for finals (was in the bottom 4 until two-thirds of the way into 2023 and hasn't quite got there yet in 2024) despite having Cripps, Walsh, Curnow, Mackay and Weitering
8. McRae is still odds on to miss finals the year after his flag
9. Mitchell is discussed in some circles as the second coming of Leigh Matthews but hasn't actually achieved anything yet
10. Kingsley is like Mitchell except with one prelim appearance
11. Hardwick is a great but has taken GC and cannot get them to win a game away from home, despite what I believe has been a relatively smooth run with injury this year

Goodwin has a flag and, unless Collingwood pulls off something extraordinary from here, will be the only one of the last four premiership coaches to get his side back into the finals the following year.

I’ll ask a genuine question, did any of those coaches, apart from Longmire, get handed a solid list and a strong culture off the back of a succession plan?

Goodwin was handed the reins to a club that was on the up thanks to Paul Roos and some solid recruiting. All of the above coaches (apart from Longmire) came into clubs that were heading south.

Edited August 4, 2024Aug 4 by Heart Beats True
Punctuation

49 minutes ago, Binmans PA said:

I thought DS meant as rhe season progressed whatdid we'd to add fresh legs. Koz' mid minutes have probably reduced as the season has progressed, right?

It definitely feels that way recently.

32 minutes ago, rjay said:

This is interesting.

Hannebery said last Sunday that the Swans were loading.

He said just adding a little bit to the training is enough to flatten you on match day.

Someone else, can't remember if it was Hodge or Sanderson said clubs don't do loading anymore as the season is now too long and physically hard. They get their loading match days.

So, who knows.

...but I wouldn't think it's an excuse for a loss like last nights unless they are flogging to absolute s... out of them on the track.

edit: and I don't think loading is very sexy for the experts as it takes away a lot of their analysis. Think of all the fun they will be having over the Swans this week. They've been worked out, there turnover game is in disarray, Is Longmire the right guy?

You'd think hannebery would know if Swans are loading or not. I assume he still has connections with ex teamates.

Still probably not good enough for the how come it's not ever mentioned by ex players, head in the sand crew but. The swans must have been found out!

Agree no good for the so called analysts (how to explain an historical huge loss for a team on top of the ladder).

Good for punters though.

Now's the time to back the swans for the flag.

They're now $6 to win the flag. That's outstanding value.

Edited August 4, 2024Aug 4 by binman

1 hour ago, Binmans PA said:

I thought DS meant as rhe season progressed whatdid we'd to add fresh legs. Koz' mid minutes have probably reduced as the season has progressed, right?

I reckon they've gone up, but only because at the beginning of the season whilst he was regularly going to centre square bounces it was often only 5 or 6 times.

A few times of late it has been 10 plus timed.

14 minutes ago, Little Richard said:

It definitely feels that way recently.

He looks like he's fatiguing significantly in the last few weeks.

Another pre season under his belt and Koz will be even better next year.

If we get some young blokes from the first round of the draft, it might mean we only need Koz to occasionally pinch hit, but mostly stay forward.

I wonder how the ‘Time to go Hinkley’ thread is going over at PowerLand