Deep Midfield Issues

[Moonshadow 16,605]

2 minutes ago, JJJ said:

Oh also re JJ leaving. He didn’t leave for greater opportunity, Horse Longmire  spoke to him about a specific role that’s true, he left for money. We were way off and couldn’t match it.

User name checks out!

[IRW 1,291]

5 minutes ago, kozzyisalegend said:

Got the best ruckman in the comp

2 all australian midfielders 

A contested beast in viney

Yet we continuously get destroyed in contested possessions and clearances

Why?

Is it set up? Or are they just not very good ? Or is it effort ?

Max is not the best tap ruckman in the comp.

He makes the other ruck ineffective though so  it becomes mostly a battle between the mids.

Edited June 2 by IRW

[At the break of Gawn 3,838]

Thinking about how frustrated Trac looked on the field, I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a media story brewing about a disconnect between the players and the coaches (like the Yze criticism a couple of weeks back). Clubs aren’t immune to these stories so I hope it might bring about the change that’s needed.

[titan_uranus 23,168]

1 hour ago, Binmans PA said:

What? Where did I say we're a contender? That's putting words in my mouth...

There's a difference between your window being shut and not being up to it at the moment. 

Read my post above, top 4 is probably shot now, and we're now a real shot at missing the 8 altogether.

Sorry, misread. You said our window isn’t shut. 

I’m not sure about our window. I’m in the “our list is severely overrated” camp so for me, these continued poor performances from close to our best 23 mean I don’t see much improvement coming from within (would love the likes of Jefferson, AMW and Sestan to prove me wrong, and I still rate Howes). Can we find the right FAs/trades with whatever cash we have to spend for 2025? Not sure. 

[DeeSpencer 23,642]

The fundamental problem is the number of players on our list who can reliably run (both speed and endurance), win contests and use the ball at the standard required has dwindled. Especially the number who can do it in multiple roles that gives the coaches flexibility and depth. 

Windsor and Kolt was a step to help things in coming years. They should start to really pay off in 2-3 years.

But we need to get creative to find more fixes and fast.

And we need to decide which parts of this new game make sense - both short and long term. Because right now, I have big questions.

[Swooper Northey 299]

2 hours ago, Moonshadow said:

And we're robbing Peter to pay Paul by playing Trac as a forward more than mid. He's a star wherever he plays, but we are a very average midfield without him.

In three years time we may be without Gawn, Viney and May. And Trac and Lever fast approaching 30. Oliver heading toward C grade.

Our flag window is definitely closed with this list. Time to hit the FAs and trade table.

Need a ruck (Moyle?), a couple of high end mids with decent foot skills and a key back or two.

We need to look at what Sydney have done. They added Adams and Jordon to their midfield mix which has allowed Heaney more freedom. Crazy when you consider we let Jordon go. 

[whatwhat say what 20,343]

3 minutes ago, Swooper Northey said:

We need to look at what Sydney have done. They added Adams and Jordon to their midfield mix which has allowed Heaney more freedom. Crazy when you consider we let Jordon go. 

we didn't 'let jordon go'

he got offered more money, and an outlined role in a well-coached side

so he left 

[danielE288 686]

Well i'd argue not paying him what he wanted is effectively letting him go, just semantics really

[Binmans PA 26,703]

8 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Sorry, misread. You said our window isn’t shut. 

I’m not sure about our window. I’m in the “our list is severely overrated” camp so for me, these continued poor performances from close to our best 23 mean I don’t see much improvement coming from within (would love the likes of Jefferson, AMW and Sestan to prove me wrong, and I still rate Howes). Can we find the right FAs/trades with whatever cash we have to spend for 2025? Not sure. 

And that's fair.

I think we have a very good list, but it does lack balance for good users out of stoppage, so we rely on blunt execution from stoppage, which has been covered ad nauseam.

Having the likes of Kozzy at stoppage is clearly hoped to improve our execution out of there.

I think we still have 2-4 years of our window and I think we can extend it by targeting a Callaghan type and/or a FA or two.

[fr_ap 2,250]

29 minutes ago, JJJ said:

Oh also re JJ leaving. He didn’t leave for greater opportunity, Horse Longmire  spoke to him about a specific role that’s true, he left for money. We were way off and couldn’t match it.

That doesn't absolve the list management team of anything. If there is no money for the 2nd / 3rd stringers that hold the team together and allow the stars to do their thing,that's a major problem. 

Honestly, this isn't hard to understand. Oliver was rewarded for his very questionable off season with a Rd 1 berth. He and Viney get picked every week regardless of their output. Sparrow likewise. They get games because there is no one else. 

Show me the incentive, and I'll show you the outcome. None of these guys have anyone trying to take their spot. They've reached the zenith before and know how hard it is. They're taking home 1m a year for a long time as reward for that, whether they perform or not. They know they'll get picked every week regardless. They're rocking up to work and going through the motions. 

Culture and standards 

Culture and standards 

Culture and standards 

Roos, his coaching team and Josh Mahoney set all of this up. Goodwin managed to harness it for a time, but since that amazing day it has fallen bit by bit by bit.

Natural ageing, tiredness, staleness and most importantly the recruiting of questionable types with little competitive edge & poor standards (and then the rewarding of those players regardless of form) has tipped this team over the edge. 

The environment and connection is a complete shadow of what it once was.

This happens slowly...and then all at once. 

Edited June 2 by fr_ap

[kozzyisalegend 90]

10 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

The fundamental problem is the number of players on our list who can reliably run (both speed and endurance), win contests and use the ball at the standard required has dwindled. Especially the number who can do it in multiple roles that gives the coaches flexibility and depth. 

Windsor and Kolt was a step to help things in coming years. They should start to really pay off in 2-3 years.

But we need to get creative to find more fixes and fast.

And we need to decide which parts of this new game make sense - both short and long term. Because right now, I have big questions.

Wouldn't you say that mid season draft was an opportunity for a quick (but not complete) fix?

[Swooper Northey 299]

3 minutes ago, whatwhat say what said:

we didn't 'let jordon go'

he got offered more money, and an outlined role in a well-coached side

so he left 

Fair point. But we obviously didn't make a compelling case for him to stay nor did we really try to replace him in the trade period, noting he and Billings are not like-for-like.

[kozzyisalegend 90]

3 minutes ago, Swooper Northey said:

Fair point. But we obviously didn't make a compelling case for him to stay nor did we really try to replace him in the trade period, noting he and Billings are not like-for-like.

Goodwin would rather have billings over jordan

[Demonsone 1,738]

Mcqualter apologies for spelling but his out mids coach? What’s the take on him as we have been smashed since Yze left, Oliver is clearly off/unfit, Viney haven’t been the same since the Port game and Trac is playing in our busted [censored] fwd line 

[fr_ap 2,250]

19 minutes ago, Swooper Northey said:

We need to look at what Sydney have done. They added Adams and Jordon to their midfield mix which has allowed Heaney more freedom. Crazy when you consider we let Jordon go. 

This is a very very good call. They recognised what was possible with Heeney and added the support around him via Jordon and Adams. 

Between Jordon and Grundy, we have significantly enhanced their side (potentially to a premiership level) for extremely little in return. 

[DeeSpencer 23,642]

10 minutes ago, kozzyisalegend said:

Wouldn't you say that mid season draft was an opportunity for a quick (but not complete) fix?

It was, but you have to have belief in the guys available. There’s far more available chances at the end of the year, we just have to be serious about the deficiencies and turning the list over 

[Swooper Northey 299]

4 hours ago, MurDoc516 said:

Brayshaw retiring really hurt us, club should've done a better job when it came to the decision to retire him. We needed to know before the trade/draft period, this has [censored] us well and truly.

Of course losing Gus has hurt, but you can't blame the club for the timing of his retirement. From all reports he was progressing well in the preseason until results of a regular scan showed newly discovered deterioration in his brain. I'm sure had the neurologists detected it earlier, the decision would have been made earlier. 

[kozzyisalegend 90]

2 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

It was, but you have to have belief in the guys available. There’s far more available chances at the end of the year, we just have to be serious about the deficiencies and turning the list over 

I'm just surprise the club opted for a project tall who will take a few years rather than a ready made mid who can play day dot and contribute to our midfield depth which is clearly lacking

[Swooper Northey 299]

46 minutes ago, kozzyisalegend said:

Got the best ruckman in the comp

2 all australian midfielders 

A contested beast in viney

Yet we continuously get destroyed in contested possessions and clearances

Why?

Is it set up? Or are they just not very good ? Or is it effort ?

Clarry's clearly not in All-Australian form coming off the preseason he had. Hopefully with a much better summer he can come back in peak condition.

There's too much reliance on Petracca, while Viney needs some help around the contest. Carlton have been smart when trying to strengthen the reinforcements around Cripps and Walsh by recruiting other experienced big bodied midfielders such as Hewett, Acres and Kennedy. Freo today had real depth in their midfield with Brayshaw, Serong, Young, Fyfe and O'Meara. By comparison our stocks looks really thin.

[dazzledavey36 49,771]

22 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

That doesn't absolve the list management team of anything. If there is no money for the 2nd / 3rd stringers that hold the team together and allow the stars to do their thing,that's a major problem. 

Honestly, this isn't hard to understand. Oliver was rewarded for his very questionable off season with a Rd 1 berth. He and Viney get picked every week regardless of their output. Sparrow likewise. They get games because there is no one else. 

Show me the incentive, and I'll show you the outcome. None of these guys have anyone trying to take their spot. They've reached the zenith before and know how hard it is. They're taking home 1m a year for a long time as reward for that, whether they perform or not. They know they'll get picked every week regardless. They're rocking up to work and going through the motions. 

Culture and standards 

Culture and standards 

Culture and standards 

Roos, his coaching team and Josh Mahoney set all of this up. Goodwin managed to harness it for a time, but since that amazing day it has fallen bit by bit by bit.

Natural ageing, tiredness, staleness and most importantly the recruiting of questionable types with little competitive edge & poor standards (and then the rewarding of those players regardless of form) has tipped this team over the edge. 

The environment and connection is a complete shadow of what it once was.

This happens slowly...and then all at once. 

Look at the difference between how Sydney handled Luke Parker and we did with Oliver.

Sydney made their co captain in Parker return via VFL to earn his way back unto the team.

We completely gift Oliver a round 0 spot off the back of zero pre season training and poor behaviour. 

No wonder Longmire is an absolute gun coach. He gets it.

[kozzyisalegend 90]

2 minutes ago, Swooper Northey said:

Clarry's clearly not in All-Australian form coming off the preseason he had. Hopefully with a much better summer he can come back in peak condition.

There's too much reliance on Petracca, while Viney needs some help around the contest. Carlton have been smart when trying to strengthen the reinforcements around Cripps and Walsh by recruiting other experienced big bodied midfielders such as Hewett, Acres and Kennedy. Freo today had real depth in their midfield with Brayshaw, Serong, Young, Fyfe and O'Meara. By comparison our stocks looks really thin.

Fyfe is cooked

Brayshaw, serong are both gun players

We had the chance to draft young but elected to pick a WA boy who checked out half way through his stint at Melbourne

I don't understand why Goodwin let harmes Jordan and Grundy walk. Having those 3 in our squad now would be a big help

[DeeSpencer 23,642]

3 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Look at the difference between how Sydney handled Luke Parker and we did with Oliver.

Sydney made their co captain in Parker return via VFL to earn his way back unto the team.

We completely gift Oliver a round 0 spot off the back of zero pre season training and poor behaviour. 

No wonder Longmire is an absolute gun coach. He gets it.

I thought Oliver shouldn’t have played round 0 but he was best on the next week against the Dogs and had played 2 practice vfl games.

Sydney played all sorts of duds last year when injured including Ladhams straight in to their side.

The continued poor list management has forced the coaches hand.

[dazzledavey36 49,771]

2 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I thought Oliver shouldn’t have played round 0 but he was best on the next week against the Dogs and had played 2 practice vfl games.

Sydney played all sorts of duds last year when injured including Ladhams straight in to their side.

The continued poor list management has forced the coaches hand.

And yet hasn't even performed remotely close to that level since. His one glory this year is a BOG in round 1 and we're currently in round 12.

He's a complete shadow of himself and the lack of pre season and off season attitude issues are the reason he's performing at the level he is.

There is no way he learnt that round 0 game regardless of who was available. 

[Dingo 857]

4 hours ago, MurDoc516 said:

Clayton has fallen off a cliff, probably the terrible mismanagement of his pre-season has done this.

Trac has been given license to get more forward, less impact in the middle.

Viney in bad form, maybe slowing down.

Sparrow will never break out. 

ANB is ok depth but shouldn't be attending as many bounces as he is.

Kozzy is ok in limited spells, but like Trac he is a forward half impact player, playing him onball takes away from our scoring.

Salem, no idea why he has been deemed a midfielder after 8 years playing off half back, just another brain dead decision by the coaching staff.

Rivers, actually showed promise late last year, can't move him through there this year though for reasons unknown.

Brayshaw retiring really hurt us, club should've done a better job when it came to the decision to retire him. We needed to know before the trade/draft period, this has [censored] us well and truly.

Aren’t these premiership players? What ‘s happened since then do you think? If anything?

[poita 3,754]

We knew in November 2023 that Brayshaw and Oliver were both in serious trouble and we did nothing about bolstering the midfield in the national draft, the pre season draft, the rookie draft and the supplementary list period. Taylor, Lamb and Goodwin should be shot for what they have done to this list.

But, hey, at least we have Laurie, Spargo, Adams, Jefferson and McAdam locked away for next year and beyond.