On 17/12/2023 at 05:14, Demon17 said:

I suspect a lions prelim would have been a hiding to nothing. But at least it would have kept those 5 year olds in the media at bay

What about the five-year-olds on Demonland? I can’t imagine it would shut them up. 

Apologies to any five-year-olds who might be reading this. 😜

  On 17/12/2023 at 06:47, Queanbeyan Demon said:

I've heard Plugger Mac and BBB are training the house down and slotting them from the hotdog stand. As usual, the HS is making it up as they go. Not me however.

Well if I can add to this.... BBB has been sensational in the two times I have seen him and Plugger Mac was very ordinary the first time, but he was good last Friday😄

  On 17/12/2023 at 05:19, Roost it far said:

I’m not attacking him personally but the team discipline in that game was atrocious.  The week prior we got jumped by the Pies and wet our pants. We’ve now lost 4 finals in a row. We just missed a golden opportunity to win a flag and we all know how rare that opportunity is…..so yes I’m a bit cranky about watching the pie scum with our medals. We have a list that demands we play Preliminary finals as a pass mark. We now sit below that pass mark and he’s the Boss. I’m pretty sure he’d be the first to admit the last 2 games weren’t his best. Also it’s a footy forum, surely we can pot the coach occasionally! 
Anyway you’re clearly a passionate supporter and I like that you go into bat for the team. 

Well Said. Some bad calls were made, and there is nothing wrong with calling them out. 
2 years that have ultimately been wasted 

I agree that the coaching staff should not be immune to criticism despite them being the obvious key drivers in winning the 2021 flag. We can be forever indebted to them, but we also have to move on and critique them year on year. 

Accordingly Goodwin and Co need to take responsibility for the Collingwood final, and specifically not having the troops ready and switched on from the opening bounce when the finals are their hottest. The first 5 minutes set us on the wrong course to get to GF day.

Before the Maynard hit when we were 12 points to 0 down:

Inside 50's  - down 7-0

Ground ball gets - down 9-2

Contested ball  - down by 10.

All critical KPI's to win a final.

There were also extremely questionable selection moves. Played 1 tall defender short which enabled McStay to kick 2 third quarter goals - a contested mark between Rivers and McVee and an uncontested mark with no defender in the same postcode which screamed structural issues.

In fairness the poor start was rectified against Carlton the next week before the next set of issues reared their head in that final.

 

  On 18/12/2023 at 03:10, Bring-Back-Powell said:

and specifically not having the troops ready and switched on from the opening bounce when the finals are their hottest.

How do you propose they do that???

  On 17/12/2023 at 06:47, Queanbeyan Demon said:

I've heard Plugger Mac and BBB are training the house down and slotting them from the hotdog stand.

Can see Tommy salivating. There’s a vegan option of course?

  On 17/12/2023 at 02:26, WalkingCivilWar said:

Unfortunately, nothing we can do about them, DZ. I’m sure they’re slowly driving posters away, though.  

Forget the trolls ,they will always be around us.How many modern day coaches have done what Goodwin has done in the last 3 years GF WIN 2TOP 4 RESULTS looks good on any resume

  On 18/12/2023 at 02:34, Sir Why You Little said:

Well Said. Some bad calls were made, and there is nothing wrong with calling them out. 
2 years that have ultimately been wasted 

What about calling them out over and over and over again… and again and again and again? And the name-calling… there’s nothing wrong with that?

All coaches make bad calls at times and yes, folks will call them out. But ffs, after about the thousandth time it’s well and truly insufferable. As for the disrespectful name-calling: that’s NEVER acceptable. 

  On 18/12/2023 at 03:10, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Accordingly Goodwin and Co need to take responsibility for the Collingwood final, and specifically not having the troops ready and switched on from the opening bounce when the finals are their hottest. The first 5 minutes set us on the wrong course to get to GF day.

Before the Maynard hit when we were 12 points to 0 down:

Inside 50's  - down 7-0

Ground ball gets - down 9-2

Contested ball  - down by 10.

All critical KPI's to win a final.

The way we started the QF was nothing short of abysmal, bordering on pathetic. It started right from the opening bounce when Max appealed for a free in the ruck (if he wanted to set an example, he’d have crashed straight into Cox, or better yet, jumped with his knee into him).

What followed was putting up with physical intimidation and no response from our group until Jack decided to fly the flag after Gus was taken out.

If we were switched on, we should have been just as aggressive, just as physical. More importantly, we’d have been ready to play football right from the start (it was only a QF we were playing in after all).
 

How we came out was unacceptable and was equally on the players, leaders and coaching group.

  On 18/12/2023 at 03:10, Bring-Back-Powell said:

having the troops ready and switched on from the opening bounce

 

  On 18/12/2023 at 04:37, rjay said:

How do you propose they do that???

Show them Rocky IV.

The way he beat Drago in Russia is inspirational. 

Edited December 18, 20231 yr by Grapeviney

  On 18/12/2023 at 04:37, rjay said:

How do you propose they do that???

Still waiting for a response ' @Bring-Back-Powell'...

It's ok to keep saying this stuff.

...but give an answer, what would you have done?

  On 18/12/2023 at 07:48, Grapeviney said:

 

Show them Rocky IV.

The way he beat Drago in Russia is inspirational. 

...and have 'Eye of the Tiger' playing at max volume in the rooms before the game.

Goody running through the changing room doors, smashing it off it's hinges...

Now that we have all our lists finalized I've decided to do my best 22 and Casey's best 22.

 

B: McVee, May, Lever

HB: Rivers, Turner, Bowey

C: Langdon, Oliver, Hunter

HF: Petracca, van Rooyen, Neal-Bullen

F: Fritsch, Petty, Pickett

FOLL: Gawn, Brayshaw, Viney

IC: Salem, Sparrow, Billings, McAdam

SUB: Spargo

EMERG: Chandler, Laurie, Fullarton

 

Casey

B: Hore, Tomlinson, Adams

HB: Howes, McDonald, Smith 

C: Windsor, Laurie, Woewodin

HF: Chandler, Schache, Tholstrup

F: Moniz-Wakefield, B. Brown, Jefferson

FOLL: Fullarton, White, Spargo

IC: Verrall, Farris-White, K. Brown, Sestan 

EMERG: Connelly, Steele, Szybkowski 

INJ: Melksham

  On 18/12/2023 at 06:48, Demon Disciple said:

The way we started the QF was nothing short of abysmal, bordering on pathetic. It started right from the opening bounce when Max appealed for a free in the ruck (if he wanted to set an example, he’d have crashed straight into Cox, or better yet, jumped with his knee into him).

What followed was putting up with physical intimidation and no response from our group until Jack decided to fly the flag after Gus was taken out.

If we were switched on, we should have been just as aggressive, just as physical. More importantly, we’d have been ready to play football right from the start (it was only a QF we were playing in after all).
 

How we came out was unacceptable and was equally on the players, leaders and coaching group.

Agree with everything, buf would add not putting Shache on was the worst decision of the lot! Should have been on from half way through third quarter in place of the barge T. Mac

  On 18/12/2023 at 12:00, WERRIDEE said:

Now that we have all our lists finalized I've decided to do my best 22 and Casey's best 22.

 

B: McVee, May, Lever

HB: Rivers, Turner, Bowey

C: Langdon, Oliver, Hunter

HF: Petracca, van Rooyen, Neal-Bullen

F: Fritsch, Petty, Pickett

FOLL: Gawn, Brayshaw, Viney

IC: Salem, Sparrow, Billings, McAdam

SUB: Spargo

EMERG: Chandler, Laurie, Fullarton

 

Casey

B: Hore, Tomlinson, Adams

HB: Howes, McDonald, Smith 

C: Windsor, Laurie, Woewodin

HF: Chandler, Schache, Tholstrup

F: Moniz-Wakefield, B. Brown, Jefferson

FOLL: Fullarton, White, Spargo

IC: Verrall, Farris-White, K. Brown, Sestan 

EMERG: Connelly, Steele, Szybkowski 

INJ: Melksham

Turner aint up to it yet! Thommo deserves an extended run IMO. I would have a fit BBB in as well!

I think something the club does need to change and get better still at, is giving the up and commers better exposure at AFL level.  Playing that player that's on the frindge as the sub week after week isn't going to cut it.  I understand the tendency that Goodwin has for stability in the team and that yes, we did blood more players in 2023 than 2022, but I feel we need to step up another notch.

I concur with others that Bailey Laurie is not any kind of replacement for Jake Melksham.  Guys like Joel Smith and Shane McAdam are the closest 'likes' we have for Melksham.  It was a stupid quote by Superfooty really.  It's not like Melksham really had any substantial continuity with his role in our structure over the past three years.

I feel Bailey really does face an uncertain future over the next few years and I think he maybe something of a Toby Bedford problem - a player that's too good for VFL and may get a game in many other teams, but is currently on par or slightly below par with a bunch of others we have that play a similar role.  His task will only get harder with the likes of Tholstrup, Winsor and Woewodin and AMW playing a similar role and style.  As much as the club needs to step it up, so too do players like Bailey when they get oppertities.

Still, I think Bailey may also be the sort of player we need to keep for the sustained sucess of the team and keeping him motivated and committed to the MFC, with modest exposure at AFL level is a challenge both he and the club need to rise to.  I do feel that sustained sucess is assisted by being able to retain these types of players at modest to low salary cap costs.  We need that next tier of young players comming through to fill the roles of ANB, Viney's age bracket as they retire out of the team.  Loosing Toby Bedford and Jordon out of our team was a loss in that sense.

Like others I do feel we need to get better at taking the game on, when attacking from situations where the ball gets bottled up in our back half.  So often our front half game makes it almost impossible to score due to the congestion (and I get that retaining it in forward 50 is part of our defensive strategy).  But too often, we wasted oppertities to torch the opposition, when we had an open forwardline, because we lacked the dare to move the ball quickly in those situations. 

We have players like Kossie, Joel Smith and Chandler that have pace to burn, or JVR, Petty and Fritsch who would love to contest just 2 out, but too often, we don't pull the trigger.  One of the things that Melksham bought to the team when he came in, was an attacking mindset of taking the game on when there was open space out the back - we need to get him coaching our half forwards and wingers and even when injured, he can make a substantial contribution to the team.  With players like Melksham, it's not only about taking the game on, but also quickly summing up a situation and kicking the ball to the right spots.

How much would our forwards love to run onto open space and a ball that's bouncing towards goals 25m - 35m out - even if our forwards arn't leading the foot race, the pressure it puts on the defender to gather cleanly and then turn out of trouble, without getting caught in a tackle or deliberately disposing of the football out of bounds is immense. 

There were many whom under rate T Mac's contribution in 2021, but his ability to keep the ball moving by quickly turning, taking on his opponent and then kicking deep up the field with a reasonably well directed 50m pass was a key reason we were able to score in many situations.

Edited December 18, 20231 yr by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

I think Verrall will be ready for a debut before Jefferson just quietly. MJ will take some time. 

The third thing I think the club needs to change is for our supporter base to get louder and more vocal at games.

Our chants are week as [censored] and for too infrequent compared to the other Melbourne power clubs like Collingwood, Carlton and Essendon/Hawthorn (if they had anything to cheer about).

Edited December 18, 20231 yr by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

  On 18/12/2023 at 09:51, rjay said:

Still waiting for a response ' @Bring-Back-Powell'...

It's ok to keep saying this stuff.

...but give an answer, what would you have done?

What do you want me to say or suggest? 

I'm merely pointing out the deplorable stats of the first five minutes of that final which set the tone for most the night, which caused us to play catch up footy. I've listened to numerous NFL press conferences this year and the common theme from the losing coach is "we were flat and didn't come to play, that's on me as the head coach, I take responsibility for not having them prepared"

It's up to Goodwin and Co to analyse how they prepared the players in the lead up to the Collingwood final and why we were jumped in such spectacular fashion.

 

 

  On 18/12/2023 at 22:32, Bring-Back-Powell said:

What do you want me to say or suggest? 

I'm merely pointing out the deplorable stats of the first five minutes of that final which set the tone for most the night, which caused us to play catch up footy. I've listened to numerous NFL press conferences this year and the common theme from the losing coach is "we were flat and didn't come to play, that's on me as the head coach, I take responsibility for not having them prepared"

It's up to Goodwin and Co to analyse how they prepared the players in the lead up to the Collingwood final and why we were jumped in such spectacular fashion.

 

 

I want you to say what you would do...

No you're not merely pointing out the stats, you're blaming Goodwin.

...what would you have done differently?

  On 18/12/2023 at 06:48, Demon Disciple said:

The way we started the QF was nothing short of abysmal, bordering on pathetic. It started right from the opening bounce when Max appealed for a free in the ruck (if he wanted to set an example, he’d have crashed straight into Cox, or better yet, jumped with his knee into him).

What followed was putting up with physical intimidation and no response from our group until Jack decided to fly the flag after Gus was taken out.

If we were switched on, we should have been just as aggressive, just as physical. More importantly, we’d have been ready to play football right from the start (it was only a QF we were playing in after all).
 

How we came out was unacceptable and was equally on the players, leaders and coaching group.

A serious question, ie I'm not being facetious. 

For the sake of argument lets say you are right and the 'way we started the QF was nothing short of abysmal, bordering on pathetic' and we 'weren't ready to play football right from the start'.

And for the sake of argument let's say we agree that losing Gus had a massive impact on the game.

For the sake of argument, let's leave the obvious, and completely understandable, emotional impact of Gus being poleaxed just a few minutes into the game out of the equation. 

But let's agree that from a purely footy perspective losing Gus for almost an entire game had a significant impact on our chances of winning the game.

I meant to say, we lost one of our best players and leaders, a starting midfielder, had to cover all the kms Gus runs in a game, lost his defensive smarts and had to bring our sub on early, robbing us of the chance to bring a fresh player on late in the third or early in the last quarter. 

And finally, for the sake of argument, lets agree that inaccuracy cost us the game and that we were clearly the better, stronger team in the last quarter. 

So to the question.

Given we started poorly, lost one our best players only a few minutes into the game and were down 20 points at the end of the first quarter, were you impressed with our mental strength to fight our way back into the contest and be in a position to beat the team who finished top of the ladder and went on to win the flag?

Edited December 19, 20231 yr by binman

  On 19/12/2023 at 00:43, binman said:

Given we started poorly, lost one our best players only a few minutes into the game and were down 20 points at the end of the first quarter, were you impressed with our mental strength to fight our way back into the contest and be in a position to beat the team who finished top of the ladder and went on to win the flag?

I was more annoyed than impressed, that if we were to put 4 quarters of effort in, that we would have walked straight into a PF.

  On 18/12/2023 at 22:38, rjay said:

I want you to say what you would do...

No you're not merely pointing out the stats, you're blaming Goodwin.

...what would you have done differently?

I think @Bring-Back-Powell has a very valid point about our poor start I  the QF and I believe it cost us the match at least equally with the loss of Gus and our lack of conversion.

Macrae had Collingwood ready to rumble - including and evidenced by Maynard's "statement". Goodwin didn't have us in the same state of readiness and it's part of his job to know how to come up with a solution, not @Bring-Back-Powell who sufficiently described the problem.

Edited December 19, 20231 yr by old55

  On 19/12/2023 at 03:29, old55 said:

I think @Bring-Back-Powell has a very valid point about our poor start I  the QF and I believe it cost us the match at least equally with the loss of Gus and our lack of conversion.

Macrae had Collingwood ready to rumble - including and evidenced by Maynard's "statement". Goodwin didn't have us in the same state of readiness and it's part of his job to know how to come up with a solution, not @Bring-Back-Powell who sufficiently described the problem.

There is a fine line here...if Macrae's ready to rumble had of seen Maynard rubbed out for 4 as it should have would we think this was the right level of readiness or would we see at being overdone.

I don't think any coach knows if his/her players are on...

How many times have we heard coaches talk about thinking the team were on and they didn't give a whimper.

Or the opposite.

It's just not possible to know how a group of 23 players will react once the siren goes.

...and how many teams win after a poor start? many and we were in with a show.

I don't think it was the poor start that killed us...the game is played over 4 Q's.

For what it's worth I still think it was injury that cost us a realistic shot at the 2023 flag.