41 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

Ok I’ll be sure to run things past you before I consider anything in the future 🙄

All I was pointing out is that hopefully, given how long this hamstring is taking to heal, that he won’t be prone to more soft tissue injuries.
I wasn’t saying this specific hamstring is going to impact his career. Of course it won’t.

But many players have issues with recurring soft tissue injuries, especially ones who play the demanding role that Clarry plays. It’s probably why they’re making sure it is 100% right because they know the risk of recurrence is high. 

Nope, you're catastrophising. Relax a little.

Injury List: Round 18

Harry Petty - Ribs  | Available 
Michael Hibberd - Kidney | Test
Tom McDonald - Ankle | 3 - 5 Weeks 
Clayton Oliver - Hamstring | 4 Weeks
Bayley Fritsch - Foot | 6 - 7 Weeks
Daniel Turner - Hand | 6 - 7 Weeks
Kye Turner - Groin | TBC  

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I'd be incredibly shocked.

No one has still answered my question in who he's replacing in our back 6?

If Bowey had to come through the 2's off the back off a one week concussion then Hibberd is doing the exact same off a 3 week injury.

Yes they generally ease Hibbo in with some limited game time at Casey prepping for a return from a niggle etc.  Sometimes a few weeks of this to get him cherry ripe & rinse out any residual stuff.

Difficult to see how he comes back unless the oppo are presenting a smallish forward line and we don't need the 3 talls.  Petty out managed for a week or whatever?

Not saying this will happen either.... just saying.

Certainly can't see it in the next few weeks as Casey are on the bye and Petty's just settling back in.  Unless of course Petty's own niggles see him outed at some point.

Edited July 11, 20231 yr by Demon Dynasty

1 hour ago, Jaded No More said:

With Hibbo apparently right to go, this week would be the perfect time to push Bowey forward. I know it won’t happen, but I do wonder why he keeps practicing goal kicking at training… 

Asked Bowzer about this possibility over the weekend.

Said he could see it happening at some point but felt he'd need more serious training time to pull this off in terms of making it a permanent (change up) role from what he's currently used to.

Forward craft learnings needed beforehand.

Suspect the goal kicking training is for the occasions he does drift forward and gets the odd shot at goal.

Edited July 11, 20231 yr by Demon Dynasty

1 hour ago, The heart beats true said:

I’m definitely taking a stab here, but if I was running the footy department I’d be telling everyone the most conservative information about Oliver. I suspect that’s what’s going on. Nobody is unhappy if he pops up a week early, but there will be fury if it goes on any longer.

Was thinking the exact same thing, just takes the pressure off everyone. To go from 1-2 weeks and avoiding the 1 more week type of scenario, give it 3-4 and he’ll be back when he is ready. 

4 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Mate it'll have zero long term effect. It's a muscle strain.

Further strengthening around the legs and his core will get him back to normal again Nd hopefully better management by the club would be a good start.

Physio here btw. I'll leave you with some literature to review. 

Unfortunately, it's quite the opposite. We know from the research that athletes have a 3 fold higher risk (3.6x) of future hamstring injuries if they have a previous injury. 

Great peer reviewed research here that includes AFL athletes for context: Skip to the 'incidence/prevalence' heading https://www.jospt.org/doi/epdf/10.2519/jospt.2022.0301

4 hours ago, Megatron said:

FFS it’s not like his leg has fallen off. It’s not a bad hamstring injury, it’s just in an area where it can be difficult to manage.  He might get another hammy or two during his career but FFS calm down. 

It is hard to manage because the strain (tearing) has occurred at the musculotendinous junction. The further you move away from the muscle belly and toward the tendon, you decrease vascularisation. Basically, less blood flow and slower repair. 

3 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

Ok I’ll be sure to run things past you before I consider anything in the future 🙄

All I was pointing out is that hopefully, given how long this hamstring is taking to heal, that he won’t be prone to more soft tissue injuries.
I wasn’t saying this specific hamstring is going to impact his career. Of course it won’t.

But many players have issues with recurring soft tissue injuries, especially ones who play the demanding role that Clarry plays. It’s probably why they’re making sure it is 100% right because they know the risk of recurrence is high. 

Yep, spot on. 

As hard as it is to accept, Clayton will have to manage this for the rest of his career. That sounds more dramatic than it is, but it's a fact. During the season and future pre-seasons will now incorporate extra and or modified workouts to mitigate reinjury. However, that's why football clubs have the best medical staff. 

Edited July 11, 20231 yr by RyanD

10 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

With Hibbo apparently right to go, this week would be the perfect time to push Bowey forward. I know it won’t happen, but I do wonder why he keeps practicing goal kicking at training… 

Id love this.

 

he has the defensive aspect of his game sorted out, is quick and elusive, and can kick

19 minutes ago, Tracca said:

Id love this.

 

he has the defensive aspect of his game sorted out, is quick and elusive, and can kick

Bowey will not play forward.

Ever.

11 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

With Hibbo apparently right to go, this week would be the perfect time to push Bowey forward. I know it won’t happen, but I do wonder why he keeps practicing goal kicking at training… 

I don't think that's goal kicking practice per se. I reckon that's just mucking around before or after training. Yucking it up for the social media cameras.

12 hours ago, Megatron said:

You’re not actually serious with that last sentence are you?

I actually agree! This could be a comprimise that threatens his career!

Edited July 11, 20231 yr by picket fence

1 hour ago, binman said:

Bowey will not play forward.

Ever.

I think its silly to rule it out as 'Ever'.

He was drafted as a 1st rounder playing as a pure half forward/wing. So he's got the talent in that area that Goodwin will experiment with imo.

@Demon Dynasty Even spoke to Jake at Training and Bowey mentioned that this is an option that the club may look into over the next year or two.

1 hour ago, binman said:

Bowey will not play forward.

Ever.

Im a bit surprised at this sweeping statement. 

Many followers of the Southern League have watched his junior games in awe. Quite a few said he won a flag off his own back. Modest too. Not available as Father-son, His father only played 90 games for the saints and the backlash against getting more shorties has been butt of many jokes that St. Kilda ran out of size small jumpers.

I believe he is in the top echelon of talent at the club. Well top 8 anyway and will only get better. Anyone this talented will find a spot even though he is small and light. If it is to play as a defensive forward yes, he hasnt the weight for that and may not have it ever, but we need to include him for his kicking accuracy and his time and space cleanliness. I think he is that good.

8 hours ago, RyanD said:

 

As hard as it is to accept, Clayton will have to manage this for the rest of his career. That sounds more dramatic than it is, but it's a fact. During the season and future pre-seasons will now incorporate extra and or modified workouts to mitigate reinjury. However, that's why football clubs have the best medical staff. 

 

Thanks, I appreciate your professional input into this.

I was not trying to catastrophise or be dramatic, I was just simply pointing out that having done this injury, he will probably have to watch and plan for soft tissue injuries in the future, much like I assume Steven May does, or even Salo who has had troublesome hamstrings before. 

That may not impact his career output as such, but it might mean that he has to be rested more, put on modified programs and so forth. This might also lead Clarry to rethink how hard he pushes his body, and whether there is an advantage in doing 'less' in terms of training loads, which could also be a good thing for him. 

31 minutes ago, Damo said:

Im a bit surprised at this sweeping statement. 

Many followers of the Southern League have watched his junior games in awe. Quite a few said he won a flag off his own back. Modest too. Not available as Father-son, His father only played 90 games for the saints and the backlash against getting more shorties has been butt of many jokes that St. Kilda ran out of size small jumpers.

I believe he is in the top echelon of talent at the club. Well top 8 anyway and will only get better. Anyone this talented will find a spot even though he is small and light. If it is to play as a defensive forward yes, he hasnt the weight for that and may not have it ever, but we need to include him for his kicking accuracy and his time and space cleanliness. I think he is that good.

This is really interesting and good take.

I've always seen him as someone that will potentially step into the midfield. 

To me he's very similar to Zak Butters from Port Adelaide in terms of speed, size and toughness. I mean, we genuinely underestimate how hard he is for such a little fella.

I remember Jason Taylor's comment in the 2020 draft video where he stated that Bowey could be a Sam Mitchell type midfielder. 

So the potential to move up the ground is there.

Edited July 11, 20231 yr by dazzledavey36

The thing I love about Bowser, aside from his foot skills is how clean he is. A superb ground ball player. So it's a good point Dazzler, I'd love to see him in the midfield in time. 

And maybe Howes takes his defensive gig.

11 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

Asked Bowzer about this possibility over the weekend.

Said he could see it happening at some point but felt he'd need more serious training time to pull this off in terms of making it a permanent (change up) role from what he's currently used to.

Forward craft learnings needed beforehand.

Suspect the goal kicking training is for the occasions he does drift forward and gets the odd shot at goal.

Thanks for that

In his week at Casey I was disappointed they didn't give him a half either forward or more central. We never seem to think out of the box at Casey as players are continually pigeon holed.

Another example might be Howes forward as he has the makings of a reliable back up player at either end

3 hours ago, binman said:

Bowey will not play forward.

Ever.

would you like to make a bet?

11 hours ago, RyanD said:

Physio here btw. I'll leave you with some literature to review. 

Unfortunately, it's quite the opposite. We know from the research that athletes have a 3 fold higher risk (3.6x) of future hamstring injuries if they have a previous injury. 

Great peer reviewed research here that includes AFL athletes for context: Skip to the 'incidence/prevalence' heading https://www.jospt.org/doi/epdf/10.2519/jospt.2022.0301

It is hard to manage because the strain (tearing) has occurred at the musculotendinous junction. The further you move away from the muscle belly and toward the tendon, you decrease vascularisation. Basically, less blood flow and slower repair. 

Yep, spot on. 

As hard as it is to accept, Clayton will have to manage this for the rest of his career. That sounds more dramatic than it is, but it's a fact. During the season and future pre-seasons will now incorporate extra and or modified workouts to mitigate reinjury. However, that's why football clubs have the best medical staff. 

Thank you for your explanation, Ryan. It’s a shame you weren’t here a couple of weeks ago; we could’ve avoided all the uninformed statements made. In particular, the glut of posts slagging off on our medical staff for their “mismanagement” and “poor handling” of Clarrie’s injury. 

16 hours ago, RyanD said:

Physio here btw. I'll leave you with some literature to review. 

Unfortunately, it's quite the opposite. We know from the research that athletes have a 3 fold higher risk (3.6x) of future hamstring injuries if they have a previous injury. 

Great peer reviewed research here that includes AFL athletes for context: Skip to the 'incidence/prevalence' heading https://www.jospt.org/doi/epdf/10.2519/jospt.2022.0301

It is hard to manage because the strain (tearing) has occurred at the musculotendinous junction. The further you move away from the muscle belly and toward the tendon, you decrease vascularisation. Basically, less blood flow and slower repair. 

Yep, spot on. 

As hard as it is to accept, Clayton will have to manage this for the rest of his career. That sounds more dramatic than it is, but it's a fact. During the season and future pre-seasons will now incorporate extra and or modified workouts to mitigate reinjury. However, that's why football clubs have the best medical staff. 

Thanks @RyanD.

A question for you: is it normal/common for someone like Oliver to run within days of an injury like this? Or at least, is it something you could imagine occurring depending on initial scans/symptoms etc? 

8 hours ago, A F said:

The thing I love about Bowser, aside from his foot skills is how clean he is. A superb ground ball player. So it's a good point Dazzler, I'd love to see him in the midfield in time. 

And maybe Howes takes his defensive gig.

 

7 hours ago, Diamond_Jim said:

Thanks for that

In his week at Casey I was disappointed they didn't give him a half either forward or more central. We never seem to think out of the box at Casey as players are continually pigeon holed.

Another example might be Howes forward as he has the makings of a reliable back up player at either end

Believe you're referring to his match against the Cats with Casey DJ.

From memory he played the bulk of time in his usual HB role but maybe not as much as he might do at AFL level.

I seem to recall he may have had a bit more licence to roam as there were a number of forays forward of center.

Nothing significant to suggest they asked him to push up of course or to actually play time there as such, but on the day he just seemed to be everywhere.

Alongside Harmes he was easily up there in our best on the day with 27 disposals, 12 marks, 5 tackles and 3 inside 50s.  A performance that could not be ignored and saw him come straight back in.

AF has mentioned that we could really do with his VG ground ball work in the middle.  I would argue that with his fabulous finesse & finish by foot we could also do with his skills & class forward of center & coming inside 50.  AND with ground ball work inside 50 where we are pretty ordinary at the moment.

Certainly won't happen this season though given his comments around the training requirements.

Goodwin also may not see him in any other role than the present either so we have to consider that he might never be looked at here. 

Although this last part may be somewhat dependent on other small's  performances up forward and or injury aspects.  The development / form of Woe etc.

Edited July 12, 20231 yr by Demon Dynasty

23 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Thanks @RyanD.

A question for you: is it normal/common for someone like Oliver to run within days of an injury like this? Or at least, is it something you could imagine occurring depending on initial scans/symptoms etc? 

All we know is location of the injury. There are so many variables of the actual injury and what the imaging was showing that it is total guess work to make an assumption on what would be best practice. To try an answer your question, yes it is normal to be running after certain types of hamstring injuries.

There is one thing I am 100% certain on and that every supporter needs to understand. The medical staff would be responding to his injury and imaging by the book OR new approaches that are backed with current research in the field. To think anything else is totally misguided. 

Just keep in the mind, as the player progresses through each level of training, the medical staff are relying on the player giving them feedback on pain/soreness levels and tightness. If a player is not reporting these things, then he is progressing through the rehab faster than he should be. Take what you will out of that, but that's my hunch....

Edited July 13, 20231 yr by RyanD

On 7/12/2023 at 8:54 AM, dazzledavey36 said:

I think its silly to rule it out as 'Ever'.

He was drafted as a 1st rounder playing as a pure half forward/wing. So he's got the talent in that area that Goodwin will experiment with imo.

@Demon Dynasty Even spoke to Jake at Training and Bowey mentioned that this is an option that the club may look into over the next year or two.

Fair call.

Ever was over the top.

Kane Cornes reckons Oliver won’t play again this season… so lock him in for a return next week 🙄😂

4 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

Kane Cornes reckons Oliver won’t play again this season… so lock him in for a return next week 🙄😂

Kane Cornes FMD !!! 

I reckon I could back a semi into that [censored] er's mouth!!

30 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

Kane Cornes reckons Oliver won’t play again this season… so lock him in for a return next week 🙄😂

If I had the time, I'd keep a record of all the confidently put forward opinions of the main footy pundits for a whole season and then tally up their accuracy. I reckon it'd be about 25%...at best. I don't even know how I'd measure the ones that do a complete 180 every couple of weeks in a knee-jerk reaction to results. Or the ones where they can somehow hold one view of a team for reasons that are completely contradictory to their stated reasons for their view of another.

The free range they currently have to just wildly speculate with no accountability is ridiculous. I know it's because they need to fill a huge amount of airtime and get clicks but still. They just say whatever. It's turned me off so much footy media that I've lost track of who the reputable voices left actually are (if any).

Well, that just turned into a rant. @Bitter but optimistic was much more succinct!