In Season - Loading/Periodisation: Put your conjecture here.

[BW511 2,634]

41 minutes ago, binman said:

I suspect they would not veer too far away from the proven and accepted best practice in sports science.

So whilst of course there is some variations, and AFl have a mix of different types of athletes (tgough all sports do I suppose - eg cycling, even with dat a grand tour, have power riders, ie sprinters and those looking to place high in the race), I reckon the program would not be a hugely different to say elite runners competing on the pro circuit but also preparing foe a 'grand final' eg the world championships

Cycling is where my (limited) knowledge comes from.

To put it in context for the football followers, those athletes race their bikes all year, although for most of them they target only a couple of specific races each year (Peaking). They compete in many races during loading phases and are often doing extra riding after races whether to or from venues/finishes. It is widely accepted that you can only peak twice in a given year and that is a much more difficult thing to manage for the second time.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by BW511

[binman 42,497]

14 minutes ago, BW511 said:

 It is widely accepted that you can only peak twice in a given year and that is a much more difficult thing to manage for the second time.

That concept (only possible to peak twice a year) jags perfectly with the model that seems to be standard in the AFL.

That's to say, do a big block in preseason and taper to be cherry ripe round one.

Win as many games as possible in the next two and a half months.

In that period, there is diminishing returns in terms of losing a bit of condition that was built preseason (because the match is the big load and training sessions focus on recovery and maintenance).

Explains why we looked dominant early and then slowly came back to the pack.

Then do another big block pre bye (which explains our obvious fatigue in our three losses), a little freshen up (and hopefully a win againstthe lions), and then another big block (which will likey mean more 3-4 games where we are fatigued), with a view to peak preliminary final day.

Edited June 20, 2022 by binman

[D4Life 2,435]

Thanks to Binman & co. for the education on loading.

Even after Geelong admit it over the weekend, virtually zero acknowledgement on the impact in games from commentators.

Demons go from 10-0 to lose 3 in a row with massive drop in last quarters and nothing from analysts.

Losing multiple talls in each game and nothing much said, May coming back not much said, Max going out huge!

Analysis really is average when there are so many reporters and experts! A big opportunity for someone to provide real insight.

We are fortunate to get some great insight on Demonland, if Binman & co had the FD insider knowledge, it would take it to another level.

Still after all said and read, feeling very good about Demons, just make top 4 with a healthy list, and we will be looking good at a great shot for back to back!

[BW511 2,634]

25 minutes ago, D4Life said:

Even after Geelong admit it over the weekend, virtually zero acknowledgement on the impact in games from commentators.

Demons go from 10-0 to lose 3 in a row with massive drop in last quarters and nothing from analysts.

Losing multiple talls in each game and nothing much said, May coming back not much said, Max going out huge!

Analysis really is average when there are so many reporters and experts! A big opportunity for someone to provide real insight.

Veering off topic for a moment, If I ever turn on the TV and catch some form of motor racing (F1 or V8's) I am always impressed with the information they provide viewers.

If the general population of the world can understand what is happening in these events with strategy, tyres and car performance, then the AFL can be a little more analytical with their presentation and actually teach people about the game. That would be refreshing

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by BW511

[Webber 10,454]

1 hour ago, BW511 said:

Cycling is where my (limited) knowledge comes from.

To put it in context for the football followers, those athletes race their bikes all year, although for most of them they target only a couple of specific races each year (Peaking). They compete in many races during loading phases and are often doing extra riding after races whether to or from venues/finishes. It is widely accepted that you can only peak twice in a given year and that is a much more difficult thing to manage for the second time.

 

 

Is my personal experience of loading behaviour too. As cycling is so physiologically pure (i.e. miinimal requisite skills), the comparison holds only to those physiological outputs, but they simply drop drastically during heavy loading phases (wattage, speed, endurance, grinding the pedals). If ball skills were involved, I don’t doubt they’d deteriorate accordingly, The payoff of course is that ability to ‘dance on the pedals’ when you’ve loaded, tapered, recovered and primed. (I refer to my now dwindling ‘dancing’ days). 

[BW511 2,634]

11 minutes ago, Webber said:

Is my personal experience of loading behaviour too. As cycling is so physiologically pure (i.e. miinimal requisite skills), the comparison holds only to those physiological outputs, but they simply drop drastically during heavy loading phases (wattage, speed, endurance, grinding the pedals). If ball skills were involved, I don’t doubt they’d deteriorate accordingly, The payoff of course is that ability to ‘dance on the pedals’ when you’ve loaded, tapered, recovered and primed. (I refer to my now dwindling ‘dancing’ days). 

Certainly a nice feeling when it all comes together, even at the amateur level.

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

2 hours ago, Vipercrunch said:

I've tipped us to go 5W-4L, finishing with 15-7.  If that means we finish outside the top 4 then so be it.  As long as we aren't overly affected by injuries (and other uncontrollables), we can still win the flag from outside the top 4 if we gain all the benefits from this period that we are hoping for.

Looking at our next 5 games, theres every reason to suggest our toughest opponents could very well be Port and Western Bulldogs who can't risk loading.  Geelong have made it public they are loading and should expect poor performances over the next period and Brisbane looks like they are too.

History will tell you that finishing outside of the top 4 is an incredible disadvantage. Only Dog in 2016 have bucked that trend in the last 20+ years. 

If we finish outside of the top 4, you can pretty much kiss the 22 premiership good-bye. Its hard to back-up 4 weeks of back-to-back intense finals games. 

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

1 hour ago, BW511 said:

Veering off topic for a moment, If I ever turn on the TV and catch some form of motor racing (F1 or V8's) I am always impressed with the information they provide viewers.

If the general population of the world can understand what is happening in these events with strategy, tyres and car performance, then the AFL can be a little more analytical with their presentation and actually teach people about the game. That would be refreshing

 

Well, the most valuable insight the Ch 7 broadcast has ever give me was "Bang, Bang, Bang".

[Webber 10,454]

2 hours ago, BW511 said:

Cycling is where my (limited) knowledge comes from.

To put it in context for the football followers, those athletes race their bikes all year, although for most of them they target only a couple of specific races each year (Peaking). They compete in many races during loading phases and are often doing extra riding after races whether to or from venues/finishes. It is widely accepted that you can only peak twice in a given year and that is a much more difficult thing to manage for the second time.

 

 

And hence why the contenders never back up a Giro d’Italia with a Tour de France. By the by, Max Gawn is a cycling nut (guests on the cycling podcast ‘Stanley St. Social’ consistently), and would undoubtedly align the two sports. 

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,686]

23 minutes ago, CYB said:

History will tell you that finishing outside of the top 4 is an incredible disadvantage. Only Dog in 2016 have bucked that trend in the last 20+ years. 

If we finish outside of the top 4, you can pretty much kiss the 22 premiership good-bye. Its hard to back-up 4 weeks of back-to-back intense finals games. 

Not a truer word spoken.

No top 4, no flag. For us or any club for that matter.

[Vipercrunch 2,820]

51 minutes ago, CYB said:

History will tell you that finishing outside of the top 4 is an incredible disadvantage. Only Dog in 2016 have bucked that trend in the last 20+ years. 

If we finish outside of the top 4, you can pretty much kiss the 22 premiership good-bye. Its hard to back-up 4 weeks of back-to-back intense finals games. 

Time will tell, but I think we'll see it more and more often in the coming years.  Chris Scott believes loading is the only way to win flags and is willing to risk finals by doing it. He clearly thinks missing top 4 is not the be all and end of all.  

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,679]

On 6/19/2022 at 11:19 AM, binman said:

Ultimately the highly paid Head of Strength and Conditioning, Selwyn Griffith, makes this decision.

And it is very much a science.  

Been onboard and will stay onboard the loading into players train, its a real thing non believers.

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

17 minutes ago, Vipercrunch said:

Time will tell, but I think we'll see it more and more often in the coming years.  Chris Scott believes loading is the only way to win flags and is willing to risk finals by doing it. He clearly thinks missing top 4 is not the be all and end of all.  

I didn't see the presser so not sure if he actually said that. I think we definitely showed what getting it right looks like by steamrolling teams in the finals. So don't disagree with the sentiment.

But top 4 gives you the double chance and a potential weeks reset for any niggles to get right. That is a huge advantage. 

[Vipercrunch 2,820]

2 minutes ago, CYB said:

I didn't see the presser so not sure if he actually said that. I think we definitely showed what getting it right looks like by steamrolling teams in the finals. So don't disagree with the sentiment.

But top 4 gives you the double chance and a potential weeks reset for any niggles to get right. That is a huge advantage. 

There's a link to the presser here with some time blocks to specifically listen to (assuming that like most, you have zero interest in listening to Chris Scott for any longer than you have to)

 

Top 4 is of course preferred, but I think going forward teams will now lean towards risking a top 4 finish in order to make sure they nail their in season loading.

[Demonstone 22,227]

When those fat Cats finish loading, you would expect that they will be flying.

 

[bing181 9,193]

6 hours ago, BW511 said:

They compete in many races during loading phases

Yes. But we can probably use the word 'compete' fairly liberally. Sure, they're working/trying, but the objective is to reach specific load targets, winning is secondary. Equally though, from what I've seen of pro cyclists, a lot of the loading phase happens out of combination: training camps, altitude camps etc. etc., I'd also question your "many races". Tim Kerrison changed all that when he came across to Sky from elite swimming.

But agree with what you've said, though note once again, this is an individual sport where you're not competing (= trying to win) week in week out. Data supporting these kinds of approaches in team sports (and not talking AFL) is minimal.

[bing181 9,193]

5 hours ago, D4Life said:

Analysis really is average when there are so many reporters and experts! A big opportunity for someone to provide real insight.

Maybe think about why that could be and why there has been so little commentary (outside of this thread ...).

[BW511 2,634]

43 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Yes. But we can probably use the word 'compete' fairly liberally. Sure, they're working/trying, but the objective is to reach specific load targets, winning is secondary. Equally though, from what I've seen of pro cyclists, a lot of the loading phase happens out of combination: training camps, altitude camps etc. etc., I'd also question your "many races". Tim Kerrison changed all that when he came across to Sky from elite swimming.

But agree with what you've said, though note once again, this is an individual sport where you're not competing (= trying to win) week in week out. Data supporting these kinds of approaches in team sports (and not talking AFL) is minimal.

Just trying to keep it relatively easy to digest, could get far more complicated but racing days are racing days. Even if you are not trying to win, you still have objectives for the team. Only a very small handful get a free ride and that’s only in specific races ie Grand Tours

[D4Life 2,435]

37 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Maybe think about why that could be and why there has been so little commentary (outside of this thread ...).

Yes, if commentators came out and said not much to see in Demons losses, all were really due to loading, in game injuries to two plus talls, Trac ill and some team illness, Demons still well out in front. Versus nowhere near as appealing for the AFL - how close is the finals/flag race - 10-12 teams in it! Pies/Blues etc can all win it!!

[FritschyBusiness 1,478]

If anyones interested in training loads at other clubs, I found Nathan Buckley talking about Geelong's effort against West Coast this morning.  If they are doing it, we are doing it. 

 

Did heavy training block lead to flat Cats display?

Buckley: “I’ve gone with a bit of a theme today and that is largely around post-match interviews and what players and coaches might be alluding to a little bit.

“The first one was after Geelong’s win against West Coast, a much-improved performance from West Coast, but Geelong I thought looked a little bit flat and Joel (Selwood) spoke about a heavy training block after the game.”

Selwood: “We did train a little bit different. We trained heavy. We’ve got a big month coming up so there’s a little bit of planning towards that but also staying in the moment.”

Buckley: “That actually sounds like it’s a heavy training block, like a month training block.

“I reckon they trained heavy over the bye, and you’ll see sides be flat from that for one week then they’ll pop even the next week.

“And Chris Scott spoke about it as well, it’s not abnormal.”

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2022/06/19/the-buck-stops-here-buckleys-five-takeaways-from-round-14/

[binman 42,497]

4 hours ago, Vipercrunch said:

Time will tell, but I think we'll see it more and more often in the coming years.  Chris Scott believes loading is the only way to win flags and is willing to risk finals by doing it. He clearly thinks missing top 4 is not the be all and end of all.  

Not quite sure that is what Scott was saying ie missing top 4 is not the be all and end of all.

Be that as it may, im firmly of the view that finishing top 4 is absolutely critical.

[Vipercrunch 2,820]

14 minutes ago, binman said:

Not quite sure that is what Scott was saying ie missing top 4 is not the be all and end of all.

Be that as it may, im firmly of the view that finishing top 4 is absolutely critical.

"If we finish ninth because we try to prime ourselves to be at our best later in the year, then we'll live with that." (Scott in the press conference after their WCE game)

If he'll live with missing finals completely, you'd think he'll be ok with finishing outside the 4.

[binman 42,497]

7 minutes ago, Vipercrunch said:

"If we finish ninth because we try to prime ourselves to be at our best later in the year, then we'll live with that." (Scott in the press conference after their WCE game)

If he'll live with missing finals completely, you'd think he'll be ok with finishing outside the 4.

Yeah, I see what you are saying. I took as top 4 or bust  but that doesn't make sense.

Edited June 20, 2022 by binman

[D4Life 2,435]

7 minutes ago, Vipercrunch said:

"If we finish ninth because we try to prime ourselves to be at our best later in the year, then we'll live with that." (Scott in the press conference after their WCE game)

If he'll live with missing finals completely, you'd think he'll be ok with finishing outside the 4.

I read it as if you don’t get your loading right, no point making the finals, as you won’t win it!

[Vipercrunch 2,820]

3 minutes ago, D4Life said:

I read it as if you don’t get your loading right, no point making the finals, as you won’t win it!

Yeah, that's how I interpreted what he said as well.  It's just his opinion though of course.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Vipercrunch