Jump to content

Featured Replies

1 hour ago, Demonised said:

Let's try a thought experiment, imagining what would happen if there was no prior opportunity rule.

1. Player takes possession, avoids tacklers, instigates play.

2. Player takes possession, is tackled correctly, makes an attempt at correct disposal,  umpire immediately calls for a ball-up.

3. Player takes possession, is tackled correctly, makes no attempt at correct disposal or disposes incorrectly,  umpire rewards tackler with a free kick.

4. Player takes possession, is tackled incorrectly, umpire pays free kick to player.

Does this make a messy situation simpler? No having to decide whether the player had prior opportunity or not. It takes one complicating factor out of the equation. Or am I oversimplifying?

Without prior opportunity situation number 2 would be holding the ball, no?

Isn't that what Hardwick is calling for?

If you're caught and you don't dispose it's holding the ball?

 
27 minutes ago, Macca said:

For those trying to remember re prior opportunity ... does anyone remember the phrase being used back in the 70's, 80's or 90's? (if you were around back then)

As far as I can remember (the 90's) I think you're correct. But it's also worth remembering that pressure and tackling have only come in to the game since the mid/late 2000's.

The question becomes chicken and egg.

In Hardwick's scenario the ball moves faster as players will gather and dispose in to space and therefore the constant pressure and tackling is removed, but I think that's trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube a little.

If you up the reward for laying tackles you only further incentivise tackling. 

So even if the theory is every player will become super quick and quick to dispose, with the ball bouncing out of backlines at the rate of knots, you'll also be rewarding the opposite. Teams will do all they can to flood forward again, trap the ball in and stick a tackle to get the free kick.

19 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I don't agree with no prior. Might work fine in the midfield or forward line but are defenders really meant to paddle the ball around when they can't rush behinds outside the 9 and can't rush it over the boundary?

I think the Melb - Carl game even in the wet was nice and hot and about right for holding the ball.

The Saints - Geel game was just poorly officiated.

The rule itself is a conundrum and a difficulty but it's also just what it is. That's the sport. If you want clear cut rules go play chess.

Chess is even more difficult unless you're some sort of maestro!

With no prior players would become more adept at grabbing the ball and disposing in the one action (or soon after)

I have actually seen the above in action for over 2 decades.  You won't have but that's not your fault

Cue Cat Stevens

 
1 hour ago, Macca said:

When I played there was no prior rule nor was there such a rule in the VFL/AFL

Most have forgotten but it is true.  And it was in the rule book.

The onus was on the player grabbing the ball ... get rid of it quickly or get pinged

As a result there was very little congestion and the ball was in constant movement

I'm showing my age but others of my era will agree (if they test their memory)

I probably played at a similar time 'Macca', the game was different then.

There wasn't the congestion around the ball and everyone pretty much played positional football.

I think it was more due to the thinking of the time, holding position and the fitness levels of the players. You just didn't have the fitness to run the whole ground plus you had no interchange for rotations, just a 19th and 20th man...

Also there wasn't as much emphasis on tackling.

I remember introducing proper tackling practice into our club probably late 80's early 90's using some intel from the local NRL people to develop method and drills. Hafey was doing this in Sydney.

Rather than taking away the prior I would rather see correct disposal policed better...if you get nabbed and have no prior, if the ball drops out then I would pay the free kick.

I would also get rid of that stupid idea of having to make an effort, it looks so stupid watching players punching the ball with no real intention of moving it on.

Another thing I would look at is making gang tackling illegal. Only one player can tackle...pretty much every gang tackle has an illegal aspect to it. Someone is high around the neck or head, too low grabbing the legs or jumping in the opponents back. Either get rid of it or start really policing the tackle and instead of rewarding it pay the right decisions.

 

Just now, rjay said:

I probably played at a similar time 'Macca', the game was different then.

There wasn't the congestion around the ball and everyone pretty much played positional football.

I think it was more due to the thinking of the time, holding position and the fitness levels of the players. You just didn't have the fitness to run the whole ground plus you had no interchange for rotations, just a 19th and 20th man...

Also there wasn't as much emphasis on tackling.

I remember introducing proper tackling practice into our club probably late 80's early 90's using some intel from the local NRL people to develop method and drills. Hafey was doing this in Sydney.

Rather than taking away the prior I would rather see correct disposal policed better...if you get nabbed and have no prior, if the ball drops out then I would pay the free kick.

I would also get rid of that stupid idea of having to make an effort, it looks so stupid watching players punching the ball with no real intention of moving it on.

Another thing I would look at is making gang tackling illegal. Only one player can tackle...pretty much every gang tackle has an illegal aspect to it. Someone is high around the neck or head, too low grabbing the legs or jumping in the opponents back. Either get rid of it or start really policing the tackle and instead of rewarding it pay the right decisions.

 

You make a lot of good points there rjay

With no prior we'd see a lot more holding the man adjudications ... the would-be tackler can't assume that the player will take hold of the ball.  If he does, the tackler gets pinged

It's way more complex than those who believe that the tackler would all of a sudden be favoured


9 minutes ago, rjay said:

Rather than taking away the prior I would rather see correct disposal policed better...if you get nabbed and have no prior, if the ball drops out then I would pay the free kick.

 

That means a lot of players holding the ball in and a lot of ball ups. Boring. As long as the player is legitimately trying then it’s play on, the game keeps moving. 

Im more suss on what happens when a player attempts to dispose once they’ve had prior. Those ‘disposals’ should be policed a lot more. 

10 minutes ago, rjay said:

Another thing I would look at is making gang tackling illegal. Only one player can tackle...pretty much every gang tackle has an illegal aspect to it. Someone is high around the neck or head, too low grabbing the legs or jumping in the opponents back. Either get rid of it or start really policing the tackle and instead of rewarding it pay the right decisions.

 

There’s so little jumping in the players back or high contact that’s in any way dangerous which is why the free kicks exist. There’s a lot more players drawing those free kicks than there are on the tacklers. It’s a physical contact sport, with rules to protect dangerous actions, it’s not a non contact sport policing every instance of contact. Teams getting 2, 3, 4 in on the tackle is good footy I think. I think of Jack Watts getting mauled and it wasn’t fun for us but it’s good stuff. It’s physical and intimidating but no one gets hurt.

23 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

There’s so little jumping in the players back or high contact that’s in any way dangerous which is why the free kicks exist.

Rubbish...it is in the rules of the game, dangerous or not they are the rules and they are not being policed.

I haven't seen anywhere in the rule book that says you can tackle high so long as it's not dangerous, you can trip so longs as it's not dangerous...you can push an opponent in the back or jump into his back so long as it's not dangerous.

If you don't tackle between the knees and the neck it's a free kick.

If you  jump on top of a player on the ground or push in the back it's a free kick.

If you trip a player it's a free kick.

It happens in virtually every gang tackle now but is very rarely paid.

I'm not talking touchy frees, but how often do you see the player on the ground with one opponent holding him and another holding him in a virtual headlock. That can't keep going on.

Edited by rjay

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

Without prior opportunity situation number 2 would be holding the ball, no?

Don't think so. The rules allow for someone to make a legitimate attempt to dispose when tackled, without penalty. 

 
1 hour ago, Macca said:

Chess is even more difficult unless you're some sort of maestro!

With no prior players would become more adept at grabbing the ball and disposing in the one action (or soon after)

I have actually seen the above in action for over 2 decades.  You won't have but that's not your fault

Cue Cat Stevens

I'm trying to interpret what this means...is DeeSpencer your son?

1 hour ago, rjay said:

I probably played at a similar time 'Macca', the game was different then.

There wasn't the congestion around the ball and everyone pretty much played positional football.

 

Virtually every decision since about 1980 was about speeding up the game for TV and positional football as you call it basically died. It is all about the interchange. 

Players are fitter, running for longer and this creates more congestion

If you want to remove congestion keep reducing the interchange. Simples.

 


18 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I'm trying to interpret what this means...is DeeSpencer your son?

Perhaps he feels he is being followed by @Moonshadow.

43 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Virtually every decision since about 1980 was about speeding up the game for TV and positional football as you call it basically died. It is all about the interchange. 

Players are fitter, running for longer and this creates more congestion

If you want to remove congestion keep reducing the interchange. Simples.

 

This is part of the point I was making 'jnr'....

1 hour ago, rjay said:

I think it was more due to the thinking of the time, holding position and the fitness levels of the players. You just didn't have the fitness to run the whole ground plus you had no interchange for rotations, just a 19th and 20th man...

 

I don't think the solution is as simple as reducing the interchange though. As 'Macca' often says there are often unintended consequences of any rule change.

28 minutes ago, rjay said:

This is part of the point I was making 'jnr'....

I don't think the solution is as simple as reducing the interchange though. As 'Macca' often says there are often unintended consequences of any rule change.

Extending the 666 rule for other types of stoppages has been talked about rjay ... again, worth of debate

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

Virtually every decision since about 1980 was about speeding up the game for TV and positional football as you call it basically died. It is all about the interchange. 

Players are fitter, running for longer and this creates more congestion

If you want to remove congestion keep reducing the interchange. Simples.

 

Or limited fitness guys like Hibberd, Rivers, Petracca will be replaced by ANB x 3. No coach is going to just accept players spreading out all over the field. 

1 hour ago, rjay said:

I'm not talking touchy frees, but how often do you see the player on the ground with one opponent holding him and another holding him in a virtual headlock. That can't keep going on.

Clear headlocks - sure. But a tackle from over the top with arms around the body isn’t high contact, and as long as they aren’t ridding in to the ground you can lie on a guy without it being a push in the back. There’s all sorts of contact after pack marks that aren’t free kicks if there was a clean mark or spoil, as the bodies collide. I see it similar to that 


1 hour ago, Demonised said:

Don't think so. The rules allow for someone to make a legitimate attempt to dispose when tackled, without penalty. 

Removing prior means removing that allowance. Hardwick is saying anyone caught with the ball has to dispose of it cleanly or they’ll be penalised. 

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

Or limited fitness guys like Hibberd, Rivers, Petracca will be replaced by ANB x 3. No coach is going to just accept players spreading out all over the field. 

The coaches should have very limited say in whats good for the game. They are not always aligned in their interests. And they will coach to whatever rules are put in place.

The same goes for Broadcasters like channel 7.

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

Removing prior means removing that allowance. Hardwick is saying anyone caught with the ball has to dispose of it cleanly or they’ll be penalised. 

And that's where I differ with him. Removing prior doesn't *have* to mean that. If it means what I'm suggesting, it'd be fairer all round. 

16 minutes ago, Demonised said:

And that's where I differ with him. Removing prior doesn't *have* to mean that. If it means what I'm suggesting, it'd be fairer all round. 

So under your application, someone who is chased down over 20 metres, dispossessed of the ball but makes an attempt to dispose it is not called for holding the ball? Cause that it me is arguably even worse.

42 minutes ago, P-man said:

So under your application, someone who is chased down over 20 metres, dispossessed of the ball but makes an attempt to dispose it is not called for holding the ball? Cause that it me is arguably even worse.

Yep, that's right. Player has opened up the play by twenty metres,  avoiding the ugly rolling maul, the ball has spilled free for anyone to swoop on. Sounds fine to me.


11 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I'm not sure I agree about the first point in this excellent final sentence, but I'm 100% on board with respect to the other two points. 

What is fascinating, though, is how diverse the opinions are in this thread about what the rule should be. Some like it as it is, some just want greater consistency in the way it is officiated and others want to change it significantly. I like the robust debate this thread has encouraged.

The reference to coaches pushing for decision making to be taken out being the world over - an example that comes to mind is the ‘clear path’ rule in the NBA where if you foul someone in transition and you are the last person it is a ‘CP foul’ and is treated more severely than if there is one defender ahead of that person even if that defender is nowhere near impacting the ability for the offensive player to score. It is silly; the player was certain to score and the defender has stopped that - the fact of where an extra defender is is really immaterial.

Again, the reason to keep ‘if no defender on front of the play then it is a CO foul’ is to avoid the officials to have to make a decision... 

Officials make decisions and sometimes they get it wrong. Boo hoo.

Thanks for indulging me if you read the above.

2 hours ago, rpfc said:

The reference to coaches pushing for decision making to be taken out being the world over - an example that comes to mind is the ‘clear path’ rule in the NBA where if you foul someone in transition and you are the last person it is a ‘CP foul’ and is treated more severely than if there is one defender ahead of that person even if that defender is nowhere near impacting the ability for the offensive player to score. It is silly; the player was certain to score and the defender has stopped that - the fact of where an extra defender is is really immaterial.

Again, the reason to keep ‘if no defender on front of the play then it is a CO foul’ is to avoid the officials to have to make a decision... 

Officials make decisions and sometimes they get it wrong. Boo hoo.

Thanks for indulging me if you read the above.

Totally agreed.

I haven't got a clue about basketball but this idea that umpires should never have to exercise judgment in whether a free is a free is ridiculous. Any complex game/sport/passtime is likely to have areas where only a trained individual with experience can adjudicate on the edge cases. If they get it wrong then so be it.

And here's another thing, related or not related (take your pick). Sport is not just a set of rules overlaid upon actions over a period of time, where one team wins and one team loses. It's a soap opera, in the greatest sense of the word. There is an unfolding story to sport that is constantly changing in a beautiful way. But the kind of changes caused by "interpretations" of rules destroys this beauty and replaces it with a chaos and a randomness that is hard to love. Sure, sometimes there will be unheralded success, but most of the time we just learn to cope with the change because we love the story. Just as if Masimo marries Esmarelda one week and is married to Consuela the next, the whole thing becomes a farce if the damn plot becomes so untethered that we can't keep our bearings. If the wheels keep turning, at some point we as passengers can no longer keep our bearings.

Thanks for indulging me if you read the above.

13 hours ago, rpfc said:

The reference to coaches pushing for decision making to be taken out being the world over - an example that comes to mind is the ‘clear path’ rule in the NBA where if you foul someone in transition and you are the last person it is a ‘CP foul’ and is treated more severely than if there is one defender ahead of that person even if that defender is nowhere near impacting the ability for the offensive player to score. It is silly; the player was certain to score and the defender has stopped that - the fact of where an extra defender is is really immaterial.

Again, the reason to keep ‘if no defender on front of the play then it is a CO foul’ is to avoid the officials to have to make a decision... 

Officials make decisions and sometimes they get it wrong. Boo hoo.

Thanks for indulging me if you read the above.

As John Lennon nearly said, "Imagine there's no coaches, it's easy if you try".

The two biggest problems in football are not the rules, the umpires or even Richmond. The two biggest problems are the outsize influence over the game that coaches and Channel 7 have.

 

 

If they just removed "making an attempt" so you had to dispose of the ball properly every-time it would solve the problem.

You can have the ball knocked out of the tackle then play on and if its pinned to you in the tackle with no prior its a ball up and should be called quickly by the umpire.

You can't have the ball leave your person incorrectly in any other situation in the game, so having that rule that you can dispose incorrectly if you don't have prior, I think its utter crap.

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

Featured Content

  • GAMEDAY: Essendon

    It’s Game Day, and the Demons are staring down the barrel of an 0-5 start for the first time since 2012 as they take on Essendon at Adelaide Oval for Gather Round. In that forgettable season, Melbourne finally broke their drought by toppling the Bombers. Can lightning strike twice? Will the Dees turn their nightmare start around and breathe life back into 2025?

      • Like
    • 41 replies
    Demonland
  • PREVIEW: Essendon

    As the focus of the AFL moves exclusively to South Australia for Gather Round, the question is raised as to what are we going to get from the  Melbourne Football Club this weekend? Will it be a repeat of the slop fest of the last three weeks that have seen the team score a measly 174 points and concede 310 or will a return to the City of Churches and the scene where they performed at their best in 2024 act as a wakeup call and bring them out of their early season reverie?  Or will the sleepy Dees treat their fans to a reenactment of their lazy effort from the first Gather Round of two years ago when they allowed the Bombers to trample all over them on a soggy and wet Adelaide Oval? The two examples from above tell us how fickle form can be in football. Last year, a committed group of players turned up in Adelaide with a businesslike mindset. They had a plan, went in confidently and hard for the football and kicked winning scores against both home teams in a difficult environment for visitors. And they repeated that sort of effort later in the season when they played Essendon at the MCG.

    • 0 replies
    Demonland
  • PREGAME: Essendon

    Facing the very real and daunting prospect of starting the season with five straight losses, the Demons head to South Australia for the annual Gather Round, where they’ll take on the Bombers in search of their first win of the year. Who comes in, and who comes out?

      • Like
    • 489 replies
    Demonland
  • NON-MFC: Round 05

    Gather Round is here, kicking off with a Thursday night blockbuster as Adelaide faces Geelong. The Crows will be out for redemption after a controversial loss last week. Saturday starts with the Magpies taking on the Swans. Collingwood will be eager to cement their spot in the top eight, while Sydney is hot on their heels. In the Barossa Valley, two rising sides go head-to-head in a fascinating battle to prove they're the real deal. Later, Carlton and West Coast face off at Adelaide Oval, both desperate to notch their first win of the season. The action then shifts to Norwood, where the undefeated Lions will aim to keep their streak alive against the Bulldogs. Sunday’s games begin in the Barossa with Richmond up against Fremantle. In Norwood, the Saints will be looking to take a scalp when they come up against the Giants. The round concludes with a fiery rematch of last year's semi-final, as the Hawks seek revenge for their narrow loss to Port Adelaide. Who are you tipping this week and what are the best results for the Demons besides us winning?

      • Like
    • 190 replies
    Demonland
  • CASEY: Geelong

    There was a time in the second quarter of the game at the Cattery on Friday afternoon when the Casey Demons threatened to take the game apart against the Cats. The Demons had been well on top early but were struggling to convert their ascendancy over the ground until Tom Fullarton’s burst of three goals in the space of eight minutes on the way to a five goal haul and his best game for the club since arriving from Brisbane at the end of 2023. He was leading, marking and otherwise giving his opponents a merry dance as Casey grabbed a three goal lead in the blink of an eye. Fullarton has now kicked ten goals in Casey’s three matches and, with Melbourne’s forward conversion woes, he is definitely in with a chance to get his first game with the club in next week’s Gather Round in Adelaide. Despite the tall forward’s efforts - he finished with 19 disposals and eight marks and had four hit outs as back up to Will Verrall in the second half - it wasn’t enough as Geelong reigned in the lead through persistent attacks and eventually clawed their way to the lead early in the last and held it till they achieved the end aim of victory.

    • 0 replies
    Demonland
  • REPORT: Geelong

    I was disappointed to hear Goody say at his post match presser after the team’s 39 point defeat against Geelong that "we're getting high quality entry, just poor execution" because Melbourne’s problems extend far beyond that after its 0 - 4 start to the 2025 football season. There are clearly problems with poor execution, some of which were evident well before the current season and were in play when the Demons met the Cats in early May last year and beat them in a near top-of-the-table clash that saw both sides sitting comfortably in the top four after round eight. Since that game, the Demons’ performances have been positively Third World with only five wins in 19 games with a no longer majestic midfield and a dysfunctional forward line that has become too easy for opposing coaches to counter. This is an area of their game that is currently being played out as if they were all completely panic-stricken.

    • 0 replies
    Demonland