Supporter v Fan Debate

[Madness 44]

Hey guys I was having this arguement with a mate. Somehow it came up him saying he's an essendon supporter, and I said hang on, are u a member? And he said no, and I said well than you're not a supporter, you're jsut a fan! But he said "Well, I have Essendon merchandise" and I told him that doesn't matter, you need to buy a membership to truly be a supporter of your club.

What are peoples thoughts on this?

[Yze_Magic 3]

I dont argue about footy with people at work unless they are members

When they say something about the Demons and I ask them if they are member of their club and they say no, I tell them to stop wasting my time (but with some expletives thrown in)

[Nasher 33,616]

It's an elitist attitude that I can't stand, personally. You don't have to support financially to be a supporter. By buying a membership you buy a package from a club, and voting rights. That's all. It doesn't buy the right to belittle those who don't want to part with their money for whatever reason.

And yes I am a paid up (interstate) member.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Hey guys I was having this arguement with a mate. Somehow it came up him saying he's an essendon supporter, and I said hang on, are u a member? And he said no, and I said well than you're not a supporter, you're jsut a fan! But he said "Well, I have essendon merchandise" and I told him that doesn't matter, you need to buy a membership to truly be a supporter of your club.

What are peoples thoughts on this?

Great thread topic in the light of who visits this forum.

There are exceptions to this rule. For example there are people that KNOW they won't be able to attend games, so they buy a $200 raffle ticket and decline getting a membership. In this case I don't think you can say they're any more or less involved than a member who gets a standard membership and only attends a few matches a year, or none.

To take this further, if you're a fan who buys up a few hundred dollars of merchandise, say a footy, gurnsey, keychain, and a couple of DVDs, and you buy them from MFC's store, then you're doing the club a favour there too.

I don't know if there's a dollar amount you can put on whether a fan becomes a supporter, but you can always tell a person who doesn't bleed when their club loses. I always find within about 5 minutes they say something that no die-hard fan would say... like "How good is BRETT Moloney" or "I hope Nicholson has a good year." I never have a go at pretenders for not knowing anything about the dees, but my eyes glaze over when I realise they don't really know anything about MFC.

I was talking to someone the other day, and I said they should buy a membership because the club was in trouble financially and needed the help, despite recent successes. He said "meh, there'll always be a Melbourne demons. There has to be a club for Victoria's capital city. they'll be fine." I could have slapped him.

[Gorgoroth 12,954]

yeah i say that to my mates, your not a true supporter until you put your hard earned into the club

[Guest fatty]

I dont argue about footy with people at work unless they are members

When they say something about the Demons and I ask them if they are member of their club and they say no, I tell them to stop wasting my time (but with some expletives thrown in)

I don't begrudge anyone who chooses not to become a member. Yes. I'm happy to support David Neitz's real estate portfolio. I wouldn't even draw the line at Ben Cousins's drug habit.

At the end of the day, thats what you're paying for.

Its irrelevant to me but I think you should know what you're paying for.

[dees_rule_4eva 22]

Great topic. Where do you draw the line?

I tend to agree with the notion that you can be a supporter without being a member. Myself, I am a member and always will be, as I believe in supporting the club both financially and any other way that I can. However, if people are not in the situation where they can fork out $150 per year to be a member, then you cannot judge them on that.

The people who can afford it will pay up, the ones who cant probably bleed just like everyone else.

[Jaded No More 68,915]

At the end of the day, thats what you're paying for.

Its irrelevant to me but I think you should know what you're paying for.

Not really. Player payments come from the salary cap which is handed out by the AFL.

Whether a club had 100 member or 100,000, the set amount they can pay their players would remain the same.

Membership money goes towards things like facilities, extra staff, training equipment, etc etc..

We need people to sign up because we need to try and catch up to the big clubs who can afford to hire 20 extra staff, have state of the art facilities and equipment, and therefore have an unfair advantage over us.

Everyone should buy a membership IF they can afford it. It's not exactly the same as giving money to a charity, but it's certainly the most significant (and easy) way you can help support something you love. And given our financial position, I'd say we're bordering on becoming a charity!

[Toad33 57]

Great thread Madness.

Support by its definition is a positive thing.

But we all know there are people who don't purchase a membership to support the club financially but will turn up to a game(s) and support the club on a given day(s).

Alternately, we also know there are many paid up members (a few on this site and ology) that by their very nature are NOT positive and CAN'T be described at being supportive of the club, players and coaches a lot of the time.

I would say that your mate IS a supporter; afterall the profit the AFL makes on his merchandise could well be keeping our club afloat through the 'competitive balance fund'.

Fans, supporters and members all contribute to the support of the game.

People who join the Anti Football League are NOT supporters.

Go Dees

[Guest fatty]

Not really. Player payments come from the salary cap which is handed out by the AFL.

I didn't know that. Is there a separation between player payments (from the AFL) and funds received from members and sponsorships?

[Jaded No More 68,915]

I didn't know that. Is there a separation between player payments (from the AFL) and funds received from members and sponsorships?

Every AFL club has the same salary cap (more or less, some interstate clubs get concessions, but that's a whole other issue <_< ).

This is basically a bank of money from which clubs can pay their players. Some clubs choose, or can't afford, to pay 100% of that money, but all clubs must spend a minimum of I think 95% (not sure about this figure) of that cap on player payments.

I don't think a club would ever get to a point where it couldn't afford to pay its players. But a lot of clubs are left with pretty much nothing once their players are paid.

The reason the salary cap exists is to ensure that richer clubs don't poach players from poorer clubs by paying them more. So yes, it is the club's own money, but a lot of that money is given to the clubs by the AFL through things like TV rights. This is where players negotiated a pay rise when the new deal was made.

No amount of memberships sold is going to cover the salaries of 44 players, but it could help fund the salary of another specialist coach, or better training gear, or wireless helmets or whatever

[Guest fatty]

Yeah but who pays the players? Surely, its the club and not the AFL. Granted that North Melbourne, Bulldogs and Melbourne are on welfare, but its the clubs responsibility to pay the players and not the AFL's. We take the 1.5m and allocate to resources (including players) as we see fit, don't we?

[Jarka 767]

Soem of these arguments are just plain ignorant, just watching footy on tv contributes money to the MFC. Somepeople on here are so up themselves. (Well, just one actually)

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

Soem of these arguments are just plain ignorant, just watching footy on tv contributes money to the MFC. Somepeople on here are so up themselves. (Well, just one actually)

Whoa.

[Nasher 33,616]

Not really. Player payments come from the salary cap which is handed out by the AFL.

Whether a club had 100 member or 100,000, the set amount they can pay their players would remain the same.

Membership money goes towards things like facilities, extra staff, training equipment, etc etc..

We need people to sign up because we need to try and catch up to the big clubs who can afford to hire 20 extra staff, have state of the art facilities and equipment, and therefore have an unfair advantage over us.

I know you've already clarified your point here, but what you've said in this post is extremely misleading.

Player payments come out of the clubs' coffers. So yes, if it's not raising any money through memberships and whatnot it is possible and probable that the club won't be able to afford to pay its players. That's why clubs like Western Bulldogs in the past have only paid the minimum amount they were allowed to pay, because they couldn't afford to do otherwise.

The salary cap is a ceiling amount you're allowed to pay your players and nothing else.

The AFL does inject an amount of money to the clubs each year, but it's not the same thing as the salary cap.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Soem of these arguments are just plain ignorant, just watching footy on tv contributes money to the MFC. Somepeople on here are so up themselves. (Well, just one actually)

Couldn't agree more.

The word "support" does not just mean through monetary terms.

[Nasher 33,616]

Couldn't agree more.

The word "support" does not just mean through monetary terms.

Yep, completely agree. As I said in my earlier post, the attitude mentioned above is arrogant and extremely elitist and I detest it.

[drdrake 3,163]

Just because you don't have a membership ticket doesn't make you less passionate about the team you support. I'm a member of MFC have been for a decade now and love going to watch the footy. There are a few reasons why I buy a membership, one is to guarentee my Grand fianl ticket should the MFC make it, I don't have to que up for a ticket, I get to sit with the same people in the same seat and to give my liitle contribution to the club every year. This doesn't make me more of a supporter than someone who is a non member, it gives me privledges they don't get but we all share the same passion.

The fair weahter supporters our band wagon supports are fans when they only come out of the wood work with the club is flying.

[Seekers SEECAMP 0]

Not really. Player payments come from the salary cap which is handed out by the AFL.

FCS Jaded you have done it again..only this time you have really exposed yourself and enlightened the brethren as to how little you really know. Think before you pull the trigger, or at the very least, consult someone who has a clue! <_<

Back to the topic, there is nothing stopping anybody from suporting our great club and I encourage as many people to do so.

I hope that as many 'supporters' of our club contribute financially as is possible (and within their means).

Whether it be through merchandise purchased through our club, attending our home games (gate receipts) or attending club functions. People who are not members should not be ridiculed. They should be encouraged to get on board and help make a difference. YM, I suspect you don't have a great lot in life to hang your hat on?

[rusty_kingswood 0]

Hey guys I was having this arguement with a mate. Somehow it came up him saying he's an essendon supporter, and I said hang on, are u a member? And he said no, and I said well than you're not a supporter, you're jsut a fan! But he said "Well, I have Essendon merchandise" and I told him that doesn't matter, you need to buy a membership to truly be a supporter of your club.

What are peoples thoughts on this?

Its a bit of a touchy subject with some people I think. I mean if you are passionate about your club then you should pay up, no questions asked.

HOWEVER, not everybody are in the same financial position that you or I are in. There were a few years where I could not afford to buy a membership, however I did attend games where possible. If a supporter can or cant afford to buy a membership, this doesnt (and nor should it) take anything away from the fact that they support, love and are passionate about the MFC.

Personaly I think that the introduction of monthly direct debit for memberships is the best thing that has happened. Without it, I know that I (and my brother for that matter) would not be able to support the Demons for the past few years and beyond.

[mordja 187]

Im not going to buy that it's an Elitist idea to claim you cant be a supporter unless your a member. Elitism implies IMHO some form of restricted barrier to entry, such as the MCC. I do not think coughing up a couple of hundred dollars is a restricted barrier to entry (although to some people its a lot of money).

I also hope that members DO ALWAYS give non-members who sound off about the club a bit of a ribbing, as this can only help acheive greater membership numbers.

As much as I dont necessarily want to align myself with some of the more fanatical posters here, IMHO if your going to talk about your club and argue about your club then you should be a member.

[Jaded No More 68,915]

I know you've already clarified your point here, but what you've said in this post is extremely misleading.

I realised that what I wrote was confusing, and made it sound as if the AFL pays the salaries, and not the club.

What I meant by the cap being handed out by the AFL, is that they set the top amount clubs can pay their players, a percentage of which has to be used.

The point I was making is that our membership money is needed for extra things, not player payments. We can afford to pay the salaries, and probably the minimum amount of staff and equipment. If we couldn't, than no amount of memberships sold could help us.

Basically our money is not needed to help fund player's mortgages, recreational habits and so on... I just made it sound very confusing. Should teach me not to post when I'm tired and out of it

Seekers, if you have a personal issue, send a PM. I assure you, nobody cares!

[maximum bob 462]

Interesting discussion.

My first reaction was that if you don't contribute in some way financially - either membership, merch, raffle tickets or having a beer at the Leighoak etc - then you can't call yourself a supporter.

However, for what it's worth, the Penguin English Dictionary, (the Oxford's in the kitchen for some reason), has as its primary definition ' one who supports or maintains'. The secondary definition includes 'defender, partisan, adherent' which would cover all Demons fans.

The other obversation is that I know a lapsed member and he's a Dees follower. God knows I've tried everything to get him to re-sign but no result yet. What he has done however, believe it or not, is to take some Mongolian post-grad students to a couple of Melbourne games last year. The result - they loved it, thought it was sensational. Two new Melbourne members for this year.

The point is that while he's a lapsed member, he's actively promoted the club and deserves to be called a supporter. As someone pointed out, there's more than one way to support your club.

[Guest fatty]

Basically our money is not needed to help fund player's mortgages, recreational habits and so on...

My comments were salacious and were only meant to indicate that there's 100+ reasons why barrackers don't join. If we as members were asked why we pay, we'd say, "coz I bleed red & blue". For the others, there's heaps of arguments to the contrary and that is the challenge of the MFC.

I encourage friends to join but my current conversion rate to date is zero and I understand their reasoning.

You're way off the mark, YM.

(Jaded, I'm more than willing to discuss player responsibility with you but thats another topic.).

[deanox 9,922]

i think jaded, to add to what you said, there is a certain amount of revenue that is almost a standarad, can be relyed upon. whether it be tv rights, gate reciepts or some other form of payment from the afl, this money is there every year. and this is what will be paying the players, because the players would be the first thing we pay. extra money we recieve goes towards the auxillaries mentioned in various posts.

what i think people have missed is that to have a large membership base ensures better sponsorship (advertising reaches further) it does add slightly to the coffers. more important to me than membership however is game attendence. i dont care if you pay for a membership or not, but if you claim to be melbourne get down to the ground and support, barrack, sit quietly and drink chardoney i dont care, but get there for your team. if we got an extra 5000 to each home game we would be in a much much better position than we are now regarding ground aloocations, tv rights, fixturing etc. and its worth noting that if you're going to go to all the games then you may as well buy a membership