Deep Dive into Dees Issues

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

7 hours ago, Dr.D said:

blind Freddy could see that Harmes should be tried as a tagger again. 

I said this a while back

He averaged 24.5 possessions and 5 tackles a game in 2019

This season hes averaging 16 possessions and 1.6 tackles.....   even with the shortened quarters thats a massive drop off.

[ChaserJ 4,665]

13 hours ago, binman said:

I reckon Taylor has done a good job.

But recruiters select the type of players the coach is looking for.

You want a contested beast, who wins his own ball here's oliver.

You want a neat kick to play forward to replace your elite kick who played forward, but likes a party, here's fritter.

Correct.  Calls are almost never entirely down to the recruiters.  They rank the kids and make their cases, but ultimately the call gets made by committee. Taylor has advocated for some left field choices, which I like, and a good number have shown that their up to AFL standard, but development and coaching then picks it up from there.

12 hours ago, ding said:

Watts was a great kick. He almost never helped us win.

We need players who have both attributes.

I can think of at least 4 games off the top of my head where he sealed wins with late goals. I'm still not sure we are better off as a team without him in it.

 

1 hour ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Agreed. Footy is a relatively simple game.  Gawn needs to use his dominance much better. Hit outs to advantage is the measure ... not just hit outs.  

Gawn's hit out to advantage percentage is second highest in the comp (behind Ryder).  He's getting it to our mids, but they are either butchering it, or being besieged as soon as they get possession. Too predictable.

[picket fence 16,681]

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Which is why it's hard to lay the blame solely at Goodwin's feet. There are things he can do better of course but when the players stink it up like they did last Thursday you could have Norm Smith in the box and it wouldnt matter

I don't blame Goody entirely either BUT, clearly the buck stops with the head coach. To this end he has the final say on recruiting, player selections week to week, player development and most importantly coaching strategies. To this end he has been the architect of a so far shaky edifice!

Re Norm Smith, best Melbourne coach ever! If he was around now whose to say he wouldn't be just as successful? He was ahead of his time!  a shrewd tactician, Disciplinarian, players man and brilliant match day coach.

[kev martin 9,469]

4 hours ago, binman said:

 

The ridiculous focus on competitive ball winners who love a contest,(nd presumably a fierce will to win) has lead to alist that has way too many similar players and saw us take Sparrow at 29 and Jordon at 33 in the same draft. And for that matter saw Brayshaw get less time in his best position when sparrow got big minutes in the guts, forcing brayshaw play more mintes where his lack of pace was 

"A fierce wll to win" isn't just a bull at the gate type. In team sports it requires players chemistry and cohesion. 

I believe that it is about making the others around you better players, because without that we lose.

 Often, our disposals put the teamates under pressure. 

We need a team that brings the best out of each other, with act towards the advantage of the other, 1 percenters, support and sacrifice.

We need a team, that as a collective,  refuses to lose. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by kev martin

[jnrmac 19,893]

https://www.melbournefc.com.au/video/353939/club-champion-fifth-jack-watts?videoId=353939&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1473317040001

Anyone thinking the decision to get rid of Watts was wrong only needs to look at the 2016 B&F when Watts came 5th. Have a look at his cringeworthy speech and Roos' intro that stated that "Jack decided to become a great player"

Start of next season he was dropped from all of the pre-season games because he came back out of shape. He was gone at season's end.

Watts is a wasted talent. The world is full of them. Football wasnt of great interest to Jack he'd rather go motorboating with buxom women.

[Ted Lasso 18,783]

I personally feel like footy is about to take a bit of a shift in the way football departments are structured, and become more like the NBA with a lot more of the power going to the GM of footy and the senior coach effectively only focusing on coaching the team and game day tactics. 

I feel like the role of a senior coach has become so broad that it's really difficult to find someone capable of being good enough in enough areas that it covers the area's they aren't as strong. 

if i were in charge i'd be looking for the absolute best GM of footy avaliable. and then seeing how Goody (or someone else) goes in a significantly reduced senior coaching role. 

 

[binman 41,962]

12 minutes ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

I personally feel like footy is about to take a bit of a shift in the way football departments are structured, and become more like the NBA with a lot more of the power going to the GM of footy and the senior coach effectively only focusing on coaching the team and game day tactics. 

I feel like the role of a senior coach has become so broad that it's really difficult to find someone capable of being good enough in enough areas that it covers the area's they aren't as strong. 

if i were in charge i'd be looking for the absolute best GM of footy avaliable. and then seeing how Goody (or someone else) goes in a significantly reduced senior coaching role. 

 

Makes an awful lot of sense. Top call.

As you say the coaches role has become ridiculously broad (in the last 15 years or so i reckon). Spread too thin and too much responsibility for man management, so to speak.

On game day a NBA coach has one, two max assistants. Too much going on for multiple voices. I reckon AFL is the same. Too many voices.

Get a coach whose expertise is tactics, strategy and game day expertise. 

Get a gun GM who do all the man management required a list of 40 odd young men demands.

I reckon it is no coincidence Geelong and Richmond's recent success coincides with Neil Balme being at those clubs and heading their football department. 

Edited August 4, 2020 by binman

[Ted Lasso 18,783]

4 minutes ago, binman said:

Makes an awful lot of sense. Top call.

As you say the coaches role has become ridiculously broad (in the last 15 years or so i reckon). Spread too thin and too much responsibility for man management, so to speak.

On game day a NBA coach has one, two max assistants. Too much going on for multiple voices. I reckon AFL is the same. Too many voices.

Get a coach whose expertise is tactics, strategy and game day expertise. 

Get a gun GM who do all the man management required a list of 40 odd young men demands.

I reckon it is no coincidence Geelong and Richmond's recent success coincides with Neil Balme being at those clubs and heading their football department. 

Absolutely! even the Lions now got that position right and they're flying. it's so important. 

and as far as assistants go i think the sweet spot is 3 

Offence, defense and clearance/stoppage.  with a brilliant tactical senior coach and a gun GM of footy who can track the players progress and development. 

if you speak to any current AFL player it's pretty consistently felt accross the board that there are too many voices, too many meetings and it takes away from them just being able to play the game naturally, within a game plan, and makes them think too much about it. 

Richmond are brilliant at being much more laid back and it's paying off with premierships. 

[Lucifers Hero 38,982]

21 minutes ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

I personally feel like footy is about to take a bit of a shift in the way football departments are structured, and become more like the NBA with a lot more of the power going to the GM of footy and the senior coach effectively only focusing on coaching the team and game day tactics. 

I feel like the role of a senior coach has become so broad that it's really difficult to find someone capable of being good enough in enough areas that it covers the area's they aren't as strong. 

if i were in charge i'd be looking for the absolute best GM of footy avaliable. and then seeing how Goody (or someone else) goes in a significantly reduced senior coaching role.

Goodwin's role is only coaching and some player development.  Various coaches say coaching is about 30% of the job.  They leave training, development plans etc to assistants.

List management, fitness, player contracts, football operations, player welfare and football analysts all report directly to Mahoney, GM Football.

So I feel the structure is ok but we don't have the right people in coaching, development or GM Football. 

Mahoney has been at the club for our darkest decade.  There comes a time when someone is no longer part of the solution; they are part of the problem. 

So I agree we should be looking for a new GM Football.  But also new assistant coaches and better development staff.

Edited August 4, 2020 by Lucifer's Hero

[Adam The God 29,370]

6 minutes ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

Absolutely! even the Lions now got that position right and they're flying. it's so important. 

and as far as assistants go i think the sweet spot is 3 

Offence, defense and clearance/stoppage.  with a brilliant tactical senior coach and a gun GM of footy who can track the players progress and development. 

if you speak to any current AFL player it's pretty consistently felt accross the board that there are too many voices, too many meetings and it takes away from them just being able to play the game naturally, within a game plan, and makes them think too much about it. 

Richmond are brilliant at being much more laid back and it's paying off with premierships. 

So the reduction in soft cap and any likely pay out could easily be covered with a restructuring of the FD and the number of line coaches...

[Ted Lasso 18,783]

7 minutes ago, A F said:

So the reduction in soft cap and any likely pay out could easily be covered with a restructuring of the FD and the number of line coaches...

Definitely, and it would be extremely bold. but MFC historically haven't been the club to lead the pack, we've generally followed so i can't see us making a move like this. 

Steve Johnson up at the swans is a guy renowned for his game day tactical side, reading of the play etc. he wouldn't be ready for a senior coaching job as it currently is, but a reduced role with a really strong GM of footy, someone like that begins to become the more ideal coaching target. 

Not suggesting we get Steve Johnson as senior coach mind you, but i am a big advocate for getting the best possible GM we can, and adjusting the roles around that person to streamline the football department. 

Right now we have quite a large coaching group. i genuinely believe we could cut that group in half without losing a significant amount, and potentially less voices might even help the players.

 

[whatwhat say what 22,142]

I’m one of those who thinks we’re likely to stick with Goodwin unless this year really goes to pot

But the GM of football and his assistant coaches are what needs changing 

[binman 41,962]

27 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Goodwin's role is only coaching and some player development.  Various coaches say coaching is about 30% of the job.  They leave training, development plans etc to assistants.

List management, fitness, player contracts, football operations, player welfare and football analysts all report directly to Mahoney, GM Football.

 

That may be true of Goody, ie more coaching per se than others. But if you listen to him he puts a huge emphasis on building relationships with 'his' players.

Which is all well and good, but it takes a hell of a lot of time to first build, and then maintain relationships with more than 40 men. 

I remember a fascinating exchange of posts years ago involving Drunkn reflecting on his brother's experience at the dees.

IIRC correctly he said Roos almost never spoke to Dec or any of other fringe players for that matter, and this was matter of some consternation to those players (and again my memory is a bit hazy but i think there was suggestion it was the cause of some division between the A team players, so to speak and those like Dec who struggled to break into the team) 

There was a fair bit of discussion about it, a theme of which being that if true it seemed a bit of a contradiction given Roos had a very strong emphasis on relationships with players. But perhaps he didn't have enough time to build relationship with the whole lists (particularly give all his other commitments)?

Hearing goody speak he is 24/7 coach and i wonder if he tries to make sure he gets to every player regularly. I don't meant to sound flippant but maybe he'd be better spending some of that time on selection and game day tactics.

You hear players from the cats and tigers talk super positively of Neil Balme, almost like a father figure. Maybe it would be better for someone in his role and with his high EQ and management skills to be the key relationship builder.

Of course relationships are always gong to be important for a coach, but i do wonder if in some ways it might negatively impact their judgement - pretty hard for instance to drop a player, who should be dropped, if for example you know they are struggling with personal issues and don't won't to make things worse for them.

[Lucifers Hero 38,982]

6 minutes ago, binman said:

That may be true of Goody, ie more coaching per se than others. But if you listen to him he puts a huge emphasis on building relationships with 'his' players.

Which is all well and good, but it takes a hell of a lot of time to first build, and then maintain relationships with more than 40 men. 

I remember a fascinating exchange of posts years ago involving Drunkn reflecting on his brother's experience at the dees.

IIRC correctly he said Roos almost never spoke to Dec or any of other fringe players for that matter, and this was matter of some consternation to those players (and again my memory is a bit hazy but i think there was suggestion it was the cause of some division between the A team players, so to speak and those like Dec who struggled to break into the team) 

There was a fair bit of discussion about it, a theme of which being that if true it seemed a bit of a contradiction given Roos had a very strong emphasis on relationships with players. But perhaps he didn't have enough time to build relationship with the whole lists (particularly give all his other commitments)?

Hearing goody speak he is 24/7 coach and i wonder if he tries to make sure he gets to every player regularly. I don't meant to sound flippant but maybe he'd be better spending some of that time on selection and game day tactics.

You hear players from the cats and tigers talk super positively of Neil Balme, almost like a father figure. Maybe it would be better for someone in his role and with his high EQ and management skills to be the key relationship builder.

Of course relationships are always gong to be important for a coach, but i do wonder if in some ways it might negatively impact their judgement - pretty hard for instance to drop a player, who should be dropped, if for example you know they are struggling with personal issues and don't won't to make things worse for them.

Without trying to defend Roos I thought part of the reason for Goodwin as understudy was to give him time to develop relationships with all players while not having to worry about all the other coaching stuff.  So there was less need for Roos to do so as his tenure was limited.

Re the last para.  There is a selection committee and while a coach may be protective of a player with a personal issues etc one would hope that at some point the team comes first and if there are good relationships it can be explained to the player in a respectful way. 

I've been suggesting Neil Balme or equivalent for the last 2.5 years.

[binman 41,962]

2 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Without trying to defend Roos I thought part of the reason for Goodwin as understudy was to give him time to develop relationships with all players while not having to worry about all the other coaching stuff.  So there was less need for Roos to do so as his tenure was limited.

Re the last para.  There is a selection committee and while a coach may be protective of a player with a personal issues etc one would hope that at some point the team comes first and if there are good relationships it can be explained to the player in a respectful way. 

I've been suggesting Neil Balme or equivalent for the last 2.5 years.

I wasn't being critical of roos (though to be honest i am not in the roos as savior camp - i'm not convinced he was all in).

Agree on your second para, but still wonder if decision making on selection might sub consciously influenced by a close relationship with player.

On the third para, not for the first time you are ahead of the pack and spot on the money. Let's get Balme (sorry Josh - you want to be CEO anyway)

[jnrmac 19,893]

2 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Without trying to defend Roos I thought part of the reason for Goodwin as understudy was to give him time to develop relationships with all players while not having to worry about all the other coaching stuff.  So there was less need for Roos to do so as his tenure was limited.

Re the last para.  There is a selection committee and while a coach may be protective of a player with a personal issues etc one would hope that at some point the team comes first and if there are good relationships it can be explained to the player in a respectful way. 

I've been suggesting Neil Balme or equivalent for the last 2.5 years.

My take is the opposite of yours. A Coaching apprentice has the opportunity to learn the craft of coaching (or refine your own theories) without the day to day pressure of being a F/T coach, media performer, corporate schmoozer, selector, mentor or recruiter.

Relationships are important but previous 1st time coaches have lamented about how much extra there is for a FT coach to do and how much easier it is for a line coach. Many have been swamped by the extra responsibility of being a FT coach and haven't coped well. Some have even said at theend of their tenure thatt they wish they could have just focused on the coaching aspect rather than all of the other 'stuff' that goes with being a FT coach.

The work load of a FT coach would be horrendous.

[Dr. Gonzo 23,704]

3 hours ago, jnrmac said:

https://www.melbournefc.com.au/video/353939/club-champion-fifth-jack-watts?videoId=353939&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1473317040001

Anyone thinking the decision to get rid of Watts was wrong only needs to look at the 2016 B&F when Watts came 5th. Have a look at his cringeworthy speech and Roos' intro that stated that "Jack decided to become a great player"

Start of next season he was dropped from all of the pre-season games because he came back out of shape. He was gone at season's end.

Watts is a wasted talent. The world is full of them. Football wasnt of great interest to Jack he'd rather go motorboating with buxom women.

And good luck to him too.

[grazman 7,279]

8 hours ago, Half forward flank said:

I feel when we moved Watts on we needed to replace him with a similiar player, skill wise. It was pretty obvious.

Traded for Pick 31 which we used on Bayley Fritsch.  like for like...

[Dr. Gonzo 23,704]

2 hours ago, binman said:

That may be true of Goody, ie more coaching per se than others. But if you listen to him he puts a huge emphasis on building relationships with 'his' players.

Which is all well and good, but it takes a hell of a lot of time to first build, and then maintain relationships with more than 40 men. 

I remember a fascinating exchange of posts years ago involving Drunkn reflecting on his brother's experience at the dees.

IIRC correctly he said Roos almost never spoke to Dec or any of other fringe players for that matter, and this was matter of some consternation to those players (and again my memory is a bit hazy but i think there was suggestion it was the cause of some division between the A team players, so to speak and those like Dec who struggled to break into the team) 

There was a fair bit of discussion about it, a theme of which being that if true it seemed a bit of a contradiction given Roos had a very strong emphasis on relationships with players. But perhaps he didn't have enough time to build relationship with the whole lists (particularly give all his other commitments)?

Hearing goody speak he is 24/7 coach and i wonder if he tries to make sure he gets to every player regularly. I don't meant to sound flippant but maybe he'd be better spending some of that time on selection and game day tactics.

You hear players from the cats and tigers talk super positively of Neil Balme, almost like a father figure. Maybe it would be better for someone in his role and with his high EQ and management skills to be the key relationship builder.

Of course relationships are always gong to be important for a coach, but i do wonder if in some ways it might negatively impact their judgement - pretty hard for instance to drop a player, who should be dropped, if for example you know they are struggling with personal issues and don't won't to make things worse for them.

I see Brayshaw is still getting a game. That probably answers your question.

[Demon Dynasty 17,094]

20 hours ago, ding said:

Im up to 4 finger pours Rusty. Will wake with a headache tomorrow for sure. This club will do everyones head in by the end of the year.

 

 

 

I blame Jack. (Watts, not Daniels)

I sometimes wonder how we would react were we to see a sustained period of success ding.  It would all seem very strange indeed.  Continue on the plonk maybe?

[Grr-owl 1,169]

On 8/3/2020 at 11:02 AM, Patches O’houlihan said:

It will! 

Have heard some talk that the football dept has been officially put on notice and the club is making enquiries about an extensive external review of the entire football department 

seemingly the executive branch of the club agrees that the current situation is not one that will see us having any serious success in the near future and may need to change. 

in saying that, it doesn't mean Goody can't coach, or shouldn't be the coach. i just think it really says the game plan, and culture at present isn't working and needs to be overhauled. Buckley and Hardwick have undergone transformations like this in recent memory. hopefully Goody can learn from them.

Learnings...? Uh-oh...?‍♂️

[Grr-owl 1,169]

Jordan Lewis was kicking coach until COVID. I reckon he’s average in the media, but has assistant coach written all over him. Get him full time for midfield and skills?

[Elegt 872]

16 hours ago, godees said:

He knows what he is doing. Last year wanted Georgiadis in the twenties (picked at ?18, earlier than predicted) and was very keen on Zac Butters. Both very handy players for this stage of their careers.

Our draft picks are also influenced by the coaches and outcome of trades. 

so if he is such a good recruiter; why did he pass on Georgiades twice? Why didn't he retain pick 6 which ultimately could've netted us Be King or Zak Butters? How can a recruiter be considered good based on players they didn't pick?

[godees 815]

Just now, Elegt said:

so if he is such a good recruiter; why did he pass on Georgiades twice? Why didn't he retain pick 6 which ultimately could've netted us Be King or Zak Butters? How can a recruiter be considered good based on players they didn't pick?

He didn’t chose to trade 6 - that is a list management decision.
Goodwin’s influence is all over many of our recent selections eg Sparrow, Jordon - more inside mids when we have a million.

[Elegt 872]

2 minutes ago, godees said:

He didn’t chose to trade 6 - that is a list management decision.
Goodwin’s influence is all over many of our recent selections eg Sparrow, Jordon - more inside mids when we have a million.

Jason Taylor has a say in trading and list management; it's his job to communicate how good players are in a particular draft range.

Its fair to say our trade history has been disgraceful and we seem to get screwed over every time. Not primarily Taylor's fault however I have been extremely dissapointed in his continual recruitment of average players with high picks (Weideman , Spargo)