Deep Dive into Dees Issues

[SPC 3,551]

I like the notion of moving some players around..

Salem into the midfield. Hannan back to HBF. Bring in Bedford into the forwardline. Maybe try Smith forward. 
 

We need to re-invigorate the team.. 

 

I would move out any player who doesn’t apply defensive pressure- looking at you Brayshaw and TMAC

[Dr. Gonzo 24,296]

On the article, I didn't think it was much of a deep dive. Pretty lightweight overall, only really reiterated what most people already know about our issues and didn't offer any thoughtful solutions.

[Adam The God 30,407]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

So who is the midfield coach? Mathews? Or is Plapp pulling double duty?

I presume Mathews is as he was the stoppage coach. Plapp didn't mention the midfield.

Given the photos on the Melbourne website correspond with different positions, I can only assume they've had another unofficial reshuffle after the Richmond game. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by A F

[Adam The God 30,407]

14 minutes ago, SPC said:

I like the notion of moving some players around..

Salem into the midfield. Hannan back to HBF. Bring in Bedford into the forwardline. Maybe try Smith forward. 
 

We need to re-invigorate the team.. 

 

I would move out any player who doesn’t apply defensive pressure- looking at you Brayshaw and TMAC

I like Christian, but he's not tough enough to play midfield IMO. That's why we play him behind the ball and use his kicking.

[Adam The God 30,407]

13 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

On the article, I didn't think it was much of a deep dive. Pretty lightweight overall, only really reiterated what most people already know about our issues and didn't offer any thoughtful solutions.

I thought it was a deep dive in comparison to what we get from the HUN / Fox Footy.

[Macca 17,032]

3 hours ago, A F said:

The game's economics are based on membership and winning, brand value etc.

If we finish outside the 8, the board would argue to the AFL that results under Goodwin are untenable and that if change is not made, the economic repercussions are far worse.

We're talking about a multi-billion dollar industry that has the security of two big banks that it can leverage loans and funds from. In this situation, the AFL will cough up the cash under certain conditions. 

In 2013 the club asked for and received a grant of $1.4Million from the AFL ... not long after Mark Neeld was sacked.  It was rumoured at the time that we did have a cash-flow issue in 2013 and we did post a loss of $1.7Million that season (the only loss between the years 2008 - 2018.

But I believe that Goodwin doesn't need the team to make the finals to keep hold of his position.  7 - 9 wins will see him survive especially if we see W/L tallies of 5 & 6,  7 & 8 etc as the season progresses.

Every time we get a win the call for Goodwin's head dies down dramatically. 

Anyway,  we have far bigger issues than just the coach.  We have deep-seated cultural problems which runs right through the club from the Board down.  And the players can't be let off the hook again either.  They play on their own terms and have done for years.

[binman 43,762]

3 hours ago, drdrake said:

Our ball movement is appalling and doesn't give our players the confidence to work hard forward as they know we are likely to turn the footy over and their player is waiting over the back for an easy transition.

Until we can address our skill level, no matter what game plan it will be ineffective.  We have to control the football, once you control the football you can dictate on how the game is going to be played. 

This is so spot on. Our lack of skills, in particular our foot skills is at the core of our issues.

Agree with some the critiques of the game plans, particularly the focus on contest ball at the expense of outside spread, and not looking to stretch the ground (made more difficult without good kicks). 

But iust doesn't matter what game plan you favor if you turn the ball over as often as we do, or fail to kick to a teammates advantage for that matter (a huge bug bear of mine) then it wont work. 

And i reckon the game has gone past us in that the model worked ok in 2018 (until it didn't) but the use of zone has gone to whole other level and good kicking is even more important that ever (and besides almost every team now goes as hard as us - just look at how freo smashed pies, so we have lost that comparative advantage).

It comes down to recruitment. And i blame both Roos and Goodwin for their failure to put an emphasis on recruiting elite kicks. 

Just watching the dogs since their flag they have recruited lapinski, crozier, , vandemeer and smith - all who are all good to above average kicks. And they already had Suckling, Daniels (who doesn't kick long but rarely misses a target), the Bont and one of the best kicks in the league Macrae. Those last four are all elite kicks (though suckling has gone off the ball a bit).

 

[ding 5,126]

4 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Many on here and especially @rjay and I were pushing for an external review more than 18 months ago.  Obvious what the issues were.

But what did the club do 2019 post season - they let Mahoney review his own department.  Good changes were made to the fitness and analytics side.  But abysmal decisions on the coaching side.

Meantime we have lost a year and our talented players a one year closer to being Free Agents.

Anyone who thinks women dont "get" footy should be referred to your posts.

You are close to my favorite poster because you understand not just the big picture, but also get the finer details and dont sugar coat our standing in the football world.

Keep it up please.

[Adam The God 30,407]

19 minutes ago, ding said:

Anyone who thinks women dont "get" footy should be referred to your posts.

You are close to my favorite poster because you understand not just the big picture, but also get the finer details and dont sugar coat our standing in the football world.

Keep it up please.

LH's gender has nothing to do with her posting.

[At the break of Gawn 4,460]

3 hours ago, CHF said:

"Tactically Melbourne have become a side that backs in their system and does not make many adjustments during a game."

This is all very well and good if the system has enough flexibility to adjust to the circumstances that evolve during a game and that the coaches box have developed responses that can be put in place to react.

I have not seen any match day responses that are reactive let alone proactive.

 

What’s that military quote about plans? I think it’s something like “No plan survives first contact with the enemy”

I reckon Goodwin needs to print that out and put in the coaches box just so he’s reminded to make changes.

[titan_uranus 25,043]

The article makes some interesting points. One of those is the argument that there is merit to a club staying strong and keeping the faith despite the outside noise. 

It also makes some odd points. He suggests trying Hannan or Fritsch in the backline, in some sort of attempt to replicate Howe. What has Hannan shown to suggest he could be a defender? And worse, did the author not watch Fritsch in the backline in 2019?

The stat about inside 50s vs tackles inside 50 (4th vs 14th) is important, but the question is what is the cause of that? IMO, one of the causes is being outnumbered forward of centre, meaning that it's too easy for our opponent to clear the ball before we can put pressure on. Another cause is kicks resulting in intercept marks: I'd love to see the stat for intercept marks conceded, and I suspect it would be high. No chance to lay a tackle if they've marked it. And another cause is the wrong mix of forwards (e.g. too tall vs Port).

I don't agree that we need to find a different sort of "high half forward" to put pressure on. We have them: Melksham, Hannan, Pickett, vandenBerg, even Spargo/ANB/Hunt when they're in the team, can all chase and apply pressure. But it's much harder to do when we butcher the ball and turn it over going inside 50. If we hit more targets, or create more even-numbered contests inside 50, we'll be able to generate more pressure.

So much of our malaise stems simply from turnovers. If we reduce the turnovers, many facets of our game improve.

[spirit of norm smith 16,588]

5 hours ago, drdrake said:

Wasn't really that deep, pretty much an outsider making a pretty basic comments.  

Why do we not have the forward 50m pressure, simple our players have pushed to high up the ground and we are always kicking to a 1 v 3.  Our ball movement is appalling and doesn't give our players the confidence to work hard forward as they know we are likely to turn the footy over and their player is waiting over the back for an easy transition.

Until we can address our skill level, no matter what game plan it will be ineffective.  We have to control the football, once you control the football you can dictate on how the game is going to be played. 

Exactly. We have WATCHED them. Not as an analyst from afar. 

This strategy analyst had no idea. Some good points but captain obvious could see those. 
 

Skills. Skills. Skills. 

[goodwindees 2,537]

3 hours ago, whatwhatsaywhat said:

hard to disagree with much 

the only thing i will vehemently disagree with is that our "core of players is excellent"

we have three a-graders - gawn, petracca, and oliver

we have three b-graders - may, salem, and - i'd argue - lever

the rest are a lot of journeymen (jones, jetta, t mac, hibberd, melksham), nqrs (brayshaw, weideman, langdon, etc.) and pretty ordinary plodders (everyone else)

after four rebuilds (07-09, 10-12, 13-18, 19-now) our list is still an absolute dog's breakfast

Strange that so many on here have said so often, “in Jason Taylor I trust.”  

[goodwindees 2,537]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

On the article, I didn't think it was much of a deep dive. Pretty lightweight overall, only really reiterated what most people already know about our issues and didn't offer any thoughtful solutions.

I totally agree.  I thought it was an article that written by someone that didn’t want to offend anyone who might in the future be interviewing him for a footy dept job.  

[ding 5,126]

38 minutes ago, A F said:

LH's gender has nothing to do with her posting.

Which is why i said "Anyone who thinks women dont "get" footy should be referred to your posts."

I shouldnt have to explain myself surely.......

Seems others got exactly what i meant AF.

[Lord Travis 10,763]

5 minutes ago, goodwindees said:

I totally agree.  I thought it was an article that written by someone that didn’t want to offend anyone who might in the future be interviewing him for a footy dept job.  

Here’s hoping. He’s an AFL premiership winning strategic coach, so probably better credentialed than most of our current coaching group!

[binman 43,762]

9 minutes ago, goodwindees said:

Strange that so many on here have said so often, “in Jason Taylor I trust.”  

I reckon Taylor has done a good job.

But recruiters select the type of players the coach is looking for.

You want a contested beast, who wins his own ball here's oliver.

You want a neat kick to play forward to replace your elite kick who played forward, but likes a party, here's fritter.

[Adam The God 30,407]

8 minutes ago, ding said:

Which is why i said "Anyone who thinks women dont "get" footy should be referred to your posts."

I shouldnt have to explain myself surely.......

Seems others got exactly what i meant AF.

So there was no need to point it out, I would have thought. Seemed a strange post, but each to their own.

[ding 5,126]

6 minutes ago, A F said:

So there was no need to point it out, I would have thought. Seemed a strange post, but each to their own.

Dude, seriously... dont try that rubbish on me.

I gave a compliment to another poster, whilst also challenging the stereotype that only blokes know footy.

Your follow up was totally unwarranted.

Own it.

[Tolstoys Nudge 1,734]

Rob is all class & his view is one that’s shared by 90% of the AFL ‘inner sanctum’ & whilst this years still not gone yet.. one eye clearly must be on list mgmt & again noise is there that we are already looking hard at some very much ‘needs’ based options which we have track record to show we are capable of, diff is this time it to correct what we incorrectly saw as our needs in past 2 off seasons. Foot Skills & A marking target with a big tank. That’s what we need and it’s what we will do all we can to get. Brayshaw would’ve been enough last year but currency far too low now, so best bet is free agency, as the other 3 top kids are never going anywhere not on your life and rightly so. Jeremy Cameron has been and very much is still on the Radar, but obv it’s at best a long-shot of 30-1 but be known, Melb ARE trying to facilitate a deal & have more space opening up than ppl realise with Jones gone Hogan off books 100% now & missing on Elliot LY. Butler wow what an oversight, esp considering many MFC coterie tried to get him to MFC it was just so obvious and yet.. But, Casboult is the one we missed on and could’ve had LY but hindsight’s a wonderful thing, still a chance but now Brown is looking the most viable and he dies have a good tank and provides much of what JH did and Weids would compliment him well. Georgiadis another we will do all we can to get but that’s a pipe dream considering he’s from WA, but with Dixon & Marshall one May be sues to top off a need for them as they are close on the premiership clock and could use one of them to pry a defender out of another club so who knows an opportunity may arise from a 3 way trade. Hunt, Brayshaw will be trading chips but again value not there u led Gus form turns quick, if it does then value goes up exponentially. Gibbs someone club may look at for his composure and foot skills if he comes free, the other one’s the club are looking at is Sheed whom I’d love & Parish.

Hore and just foot skills missed as is Perry’s work at contest and hands he’s a genuine option as key fwd his contest stats show that. Fritsch needs to go back and will to shore up the foot skills, Rivers will return for same reason.. I think Jordon needs to get a look in on wing & Bedfords pressure may be handy if we get talls mix right first.

Glen Bartlett backed his guys in LY & is now, quite rightly, letting rip as he’s just beyond angry believing the list is right but that the run and carry strategy should be what we are driving but he doesn’t have the nous to recognise that style can’t win against teams like WC and doesn’t hold up without more leg speed outside. 

Banking Geel & Lions wins would have us top 4 so doom gloom way overblown, every other club can have bad games and be written off as Clanger I mean crikey Dogs are all over place, Pies now 3 deal Howlers, we will be 5-5 if Nth don’t stun punch us (which they darn well can) and that’s far from dead and buried!

[kev martin 10,411]

24 minutes ago, binman said:

I reckon Taylor has done a good job.

But recruiters select the type of players the coach is looking for.

You want a contested beast, who wins his own ball here's oliver.

You want a neat kick to play forward to replace your elite kick who played forward, but likes a party, here's fritter.

I want them to recruit players that want to win. People that hate to lose. 

We need heart and desperation. Get the psychologists to test them.

They also need AFL standard skills.

If only Ding had the AFL skill level, as he hates losing!

 

 

[binman 43,762]

14 minutes ago, kev martin said:

I want them to recruit players that want to win. People that hate to lose. 

We need heart and desperation. Get the psychologists to test them.

They also need AFL standard skills.

If only Ding had the AFL skill level, as he hates losing!

 

 

No. We need players who are able to hit a target by foot at least 70% of the time under pressure. [censored] their will to win.

Viney has a fantastic will to win. Kicking it to a player on your team helps to win

 

[ding 5,126]

6 minutes ago, binman said:

No. We need players who are able to hit a target by foot at least 70% of the time under pressure. [censored] their will to win.

Viney has a fantastic will to win. Kicking it to a player on your team helps to win

 

Watts was a great kick. He almost never helped us win.

We need players who have both attributes.

[jnrmac 20,185]

3 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

And..... ratings AF.  Don't know how we are fairing but can't be great surely.  The AFL brains trust will no doubt be watching.   Anything that's beyond tenable , or worse,  and the jungle drums will be beating, the purse strings loosening.

Ratings?

 

Virtually every time we are on Prime Time we completely embarrass ourselves.

[kev martin 10,411]

20 minutes ago, binman said:

No. We need players who are able to hit a target by foot at least 70% of the time under pressure. [censored] their will to win.

Viney has a fantastic will to win. Kicking it to a player on your team helps to win

 

We need all members of the team to want to win and not settle for second best (not just a couple of them).

They also need a variety of AFL level skills that can be performed under pressure but they have to be able to "will" themselves in the game.

I hope one day we find a team that can get a 70% win/lose ratio.

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by kev martin