Defining Success in 2020 - Is Just Making Finals Enough?

[old dee 23,801]

1 hour ago, rjay said:

With all the opposition analysis that goes into games these days it would be unusual for any team to be caught out.

Fritsch can play & will be vital to any improvement in our forward line this year & beyond.

That may well be true rjay but for most of his games last year he played as an average backman. Then when he was switched to the forward line it is only human nature for players to think "I have an easier opponent today" 

That will not happen this season.

I will be very happy if he kicks 45 goals but that is not achieved by many players in the game these days.

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,863]

IN

10 hours ago, Macca said:

Even with all the interrupted pre seasons and off-season surgeries last year we still should have been able to eke out 8 - 10 wins.  We dropped off too far which is concerning.

So I'm hoping that we can at least break even for 2020 and to me that will be a real stepping stone.

If I gave you 11 wins right now would you be tempted to take it if there was real substance in the 11 wins and as an add-on,  real hope for the future?

I agree with this comment (in bold) and I would take 11 wins, purely because it's a 6 win improvement on last year. That's how bad we were.

Off season surgeries and injures explain a drop off, but they can't alone explain a 5-17 drop off. We are supporters can't excuse that.

I think some posters are putting in amazingly high and lofty expectations on this side (eg - top 4) and have forgotten that we're the reigning second worst club in the AFL.

Just making the 8 isn't a successful season in a broader sense, but us making the 8 off a 5 win season would be a very good achievement IMO. 

 

[old dee 23,801]

5 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

IN

I agree with this comment (in bold) and I would take 11 wins, purely because it's a 6 win improvement on last year. That's how bad we were.

Off season surgeries and injures explain a drop off, but they can't alone explain a 5-17 drop off. We are supporters can't excuse that.

I think some posters are putting in amazingly high and lofty expectations on this side (eg - top 4) and have forgotten that we're the reigning second worst club in the AFL.

Just making the 8 isn't a successful season in a broader sense, but us making the 8 off a 5 win season would be a very good achievement IMO. 

 

Agree 100% BBP. Your last sentence says it all.

[Macca 17,009]

1 hour ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Agree with much of what you are saying Macca.

But at the same time, I do wounder if the expectations or lack there of within the supporter base and or the recent history of lack of success feed back and infect the psyche within the playing group and club.

The players last year did also talk about riding the wave of support that embraced the club come finals time and in some ways I wounder if that contributed to us playing too many players carrying injuries along the way that ended up totally screwing our 2019, where as a club more confident and focused on winning flags would have taken better stock of what finishing 5th meant for the road ahead in finals and wouldn't have thrown the kitchen sink at winning two elimination finals at the expense of the physical well being of so many of those players?

Anyways I know for me personally I've learnt the lesson that winning premierships from the lower rungs of the 8 is a folly and if we are not on track to do that, then not to get too hung up about the season as it plays out win/loss and final position wise.  Also to finish in that top four, it usually means only 5 - 6 losses for the season or only one loss in every 5 - 6 games, so if that's not how we are tracking, then again it's just another development year, perhaps with some additional finals experience added on.

I prefer to view things as the club will do whatever regardless of how we feel or what we say or do. 

We'd like to think that we make a difference but really we don't. 

I have been involved in local sport all my life and that is where one can really make a difference. 

Just my view of course but the club obviously knows its supporter base wants success ... and they know we're fiercely loyal too.  Just like any other fan base

I gave the Hawthorn example because I don't believe their supporters are any different to ours ... in the last half century 12 flags versus 0 flags.

And considering our lack of success in the half century it's quite amazing to have over 50 thousand members.

We are the club's greatest asset.  Make no mistake about that.  Fitzroy & South Melbourne supporters lost their clubs because of a lack of onfield success (which evemtually effected their supporter numbers)

So never beat yourself up about your own support for the club.  You and the rest of us are playing our part.

[old dee 23,801]

9 minutes ago, Macca said:

I prefer to view things as the club will do whatever regardless of how we feel or what we say or do. 

We'd like to think that we make a difference but really we don't. 

I have been involved in local sport all my life and that is where one can really make a difference. 

Just my view of course but the club obviously knows its supporter base wants success ... and they know we're fiercely loyal too.  Just like any other fan base

I gave the Hawthorn example because I don't believe their supporters are any different to ours ... in the last half century 12 flags versus 0 flags.

And considering our lack of success in the half century it's quite amazing to have over 50 thousand members.

We are the club's greatest asset.  Make no mistake about that.  Fitzroy & South Melbourne supporters lost their clubs because of a lack of onfield success (which evemtually effected their supporter numbers)

So never beat yourself up about your own support for the club.  You and the rest of us are playing our part.

Agree Macca as members there is nothing more we can do. However it raises a question, after 56 years of dismal results it would appear a group is letting the club down rather severely. Who are they?

[Macca 17,009]

27 minutes ago, old dee said:

Agree Macca as members there is nothing more we can do. However it raises a question, after 56 years of dismal results it would appear a group is letting the club down rather severely. Who are they?

In my opinion we've often never had enough real talent and I measure the list against dynasty type teams.

Why?  Because that is how good you need to be. Our biggest failings has been with recruiting.  And I'd argue that recruiting is the most important aspect of a club.

Great recruiting = A great list (as long as the coaching and all the rest of it is sound)  But it all goes hand in hand so the leadership and expertise from the top needs to be A1 in order to be great at recruiting.

Do that and then the wins happen.  Hawthorn's strength has been it's recruiting.  In the last half century,  they've done it better than any other team

We were once in the same position under Smith,  Cardwell with Ivor as the right hand man to Norm.  Back then (from what I've been told & what I've read) our recruiting was supreme.

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,842]

2 hours ago, Macca said:

 

I gave the Hawthorn example because I don't believe their supporters are any different to ours ... in the last half century 12 flags versus 0 flags.

 

From what I've observed I think there are diffences.  Asides from them having a heap more arrogant sunny day supporters, even their more reasonable supporters don't get carried away with just making finals when they are not in a realistic position to contend, because when you have won a flag only 3 - 5 years earlier, why get carried away and grasp at straw hopes of a miracle flag from 6th position.

Conversely winning that flag from outside 4th is all I've ever known as a MFC supporter and thus until fairly reciently I've held onto that hope that us making finals gives us a chance at that all illusive premiership.

Incidentally, I didn't think we would beat WC in the prelim in 18 and didn't think we would take the world by storm in 2019, but didn't think the drop off would be so sharp either.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,842]

So for me, just making the 8 in 2020 will be just - meh, now show us if this side is really something and finish top 4 in 2021.

P.S. to contradictory to almost everything I have stated in this thread, I took out the G.F. gaurentee membership option early in 2018, because if we ever do make it again an win one, by F%#@, I'm going to be there at the G to remember it!

Edited January 13, 2020 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[old dee 23,801]

49 minutes ago, Macca said:

In my opinion we've often never had enough real talent and I measure the list against dynasty type teams.

Why?  Because that is how good you need to be. Our biggest failings has been with recruiting.  And I'd argue that recruiting is the most important aspect of a club.

Great recruiting = A great list (as long as the coaching and all the rest of it is sound)  But it all goes hand in hand so the leadership and expertise from the top needs to be A1 in order to be great at recruiting.

Do that and then the wins happen.  Hawthorn's strength has been it's recruiting.  In the last half century,  they've done it better than any other team

We were once in the same position under Smith,  Cardwell with Ivor as the right hand man to Norm.  Back then (from what I've been told & what I've read) our recruiting was supreme.

I maintain that the MFC took decades to escape the success is the 50's. Back then players flocked to join the MFC because we were successful and were the establishment team. However during the sixties the competition started to go professional and the MFC believe that players would still want to come to the MFC simply because we were Melbourne and played at the G. Norm Smith tried to tell the club things were changing  but they could not see it. We stayed stuck in this mind set for decades and the rest is history. IMO we have only really got with it in the last 7-8 years. We still have no home. I place the blame on decades of "conservative" management. 

[Macca 17,009]

23 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

From what I've observed I think there are diffences.  Asides from them having a heap more arrogant sunny day supporters, even their more reasonable supporters don't get carried away with just making finals when they are not in a realistic position to contend, because when you have won a flag only 3 - 5 years earlier, why get carried away and grasp at straw hopes of a miracle flag from 6th position

The differences you highlight I don't bother with

It's just Supporter-Speak based on human instincts.  We'd be the same if we were as successful.  Arrogance comes naturally per se.

Clubs operate despite what their supporters say or do (primarily)

[Macca 17,009]

18 minutes ago, old dee said:

I maintain that the MFC took decades to escape the success is the 50's. Back then players flocked to join the MFC because we were successful and were the establishment team. However during the sixties the competition started to go professional and the MFC believe that players would still want to come to the MFC simply because we were Melbourne and played at the G. Norm Smith tried to tell the club things were changing  but they could not see it. We stayed stuck in this mind set for decades and the rest is history. IMO we have only really got with it in the last 7-8 years. We still have no home. I place the blame on decades of "conservative" management. 

The zones were a big big factor too although it could be argued we didn't put enough time & effort into our zones (?)

The older members would know more about that than I would.

[old dee 23,801]

6 minutes ago, Macca said:

The zones were a big big factor too although it could be argued we didn't put enough time & effort into our zones (?)

The older members would know more about that than I would.

Zones did affect interstate recruiting. IMO the club that did the best out of zones was Carlton. They got a beauty in Bendigo. Anyway here we are in 2020 as always hoping a new season will be different. 

[rjay 24,993]

22 minutes ago, old dee said:

Zones did affect interstate recruiting. IMO the club that did the best out of zones was Carlton. They got a beauty in Bendigo. Anyway here we are in 2020 as always hoping a new season will be different. 

I think Hawthorn did better 'old'...and they made the most of it.

Carlton bought their flags and did a bit of a Melbourne, they didn't adapt to the changing game like us in the 60's.

Hawthorn nearly fell away as well but for some smart work from the likes of Dicker. He didn't share the arrogant traits of his Carlton rivals.

[Macca 17,009]

32 minutes ago, old dee said:

Zones did affect interstate recruiting. IMO the club that did the best out of zones was Carlton. They got a beauty in Bendigo. Anyway here we are in 2020 as always hoping a new season will be different. 

But we have no such excuses in the drafting era (although we did contest the finals 12 years out of 20 from '87)

[jumbo returns 6,741]

Premiership

Flag

Premiers

History

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

17 hours ago, 58er said:

Fritsch is not a robust player Flower also not but didn't make any difference to him.

Bayley needs to play his role Yes  But it's up to other forwards Tom Mac Weide Milkshake  Trac plus Kossy and others to be more physical and allow his considerable skills to shine and kick 40/50 goals this Season.

Flower did play, robustly.   He'd tackle, fly through or over packs etc.   One match he almost knocked out Jeff Sarau down at Moorabbin when flying for a mark.

 

No player should get a leave pass Re being physical, in the Melbourne side.

Remember garlett just finished with us 58'r

They both (Fritta and Weide), need to step it up a gear in 2020.

 

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,842]

8 minutes ago, MyFavouriteMartian said:

Flower did play, robustly.   He'd tackle, fly through or over packs etc.   One match he almost knocked out Jeff Sarau down at Moorabbin when flying for a mark.

 

No player should get a leave pass Re being physical, in the Melbourne side.

Remember garlett just finished with us 58'r

They both (Fritta and Weide), need to step it up a gear in 2020.

 

Partially agree, but I don't see much about the way Freitch plays as being non robust. 

Guy is a better pack mark than some others twice his size in our team.  Have seen him frequently put his body on the line and bring down quality marks, so I don't get this thing about Fritta needing to step into gear - he just needs to be played in position forward where he is best suited and of most value to our team and not down back, where perhaps he doesn't have the right mindset to be either a defensive player or distribute the ball as confidently on the rebound.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[MyFavouriteMartian 572]

4 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Partially agree, but I don't see much about the way Freitch plays as being non robust. 

Guy is a better pack mark than some others twice his size in our team.  Have seen him frequently put his body on the line and bring down quality marks, so I don't get this thing about Fritta needing to step into gear - he just needs to be played in position forward where he is best suited and of most value to our team and not down back, where perhaps he doesn't have the right mindset to be either a defensive player or distribute the ball as confidently on the rebound.

The message is to become more of a leader,  in showing the way,  Re both, Fritta especially,  and Weide needs to step it up this year.

 

I don't want to see more of the same from Fritta.  I want to see him take another step forward. 

Same with Harmes, Hunt, Petracca, & ANB.

[The Stigga 1,094]

As always there a few parts of the fixture this year that are a worry:

-Rounds 1 & 2 - WC away and GWS home, with only a six day break between the two, quite possibly could be 0-2 with a poor percentage 

- Rounds 5 & 6 - GC away then 6 day turnaround for ANZAC Day eve against Richmond

- Round 8 against Adelaide in NT - should be a home game in Melbourne 

- Round 15 -20 - Have Brisbane, Fremantle, Adelaide all interstate and Geelong at Kardinia in ostensibly a period of 6 weeks

- Round 23 - last game i Hobart against North (again...)

 

Slightly more changeling than I though at first.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Macca 17,009]

4 hours ago, old dee said:

I maintain that the MFC took decades to escape the success is the 50's. Back then players flocked to join the MFC because we were successful and were the establishment team. However during the sixties the competition started to go professional and the MFC believe that players would still want to come to the MFC simply because we were Melbourne and played at the G. Norm Smith tried to tell the club things were changing  but they could not see it. We stayed stuck in this mind set for decades and the rest is history. IMO we have only really got with it in the last 7-8 years. We still have no home. I place the blame on decades of "conservative" management. 

Fairly sure a lot of our good players under Smith were from different parts of the bush but when we were restricted to the Goulburn Valley only  (or part of) that all changed.

Ironically we did get a few excellent players from that zone later on when the draft was first phased in (notably Lyon,  Schwarz,  David Williams and 1 or 2 others)

And the zones were meant to be switched around every 3 to 5 years but that never happened.

From what I've been told we were given the worst possible zones because of the ongoing success that we were having back then.

That's probably what Smith was going on about (?)  But by hell we dropped away (talent-wise) in a hurry post that great era. 

[Diamond_Jim 12,598]

5 hours ago, Macca said:

The zones were a big big factor too although it could be argued we didn't put enough time & effort into our zones (?)

The older members would know more about that than I would.

There were also zones within the city of Melbourne itself. They originally came into force in 1916 and remained until at least the sixties.

The country was however a free for all until the mid sixties.

"The VFL’s response was to zone rural Victoria and the Riverina of New South Wales in a similar manner to metropolitan Melbourne. Because of the sparseness of Australia’s rural population, the country zones related not to the player’s address, but rather to the league in which he played. This difference made zone boundaries effectively impossible to adjust, and was a critical component of the failure of country zoning. The VFL was aware that discrepancies existed in the strength of each zone, and it was originally planned that the zones would be rotated every year so that each club would obtain a chance of receiving the best young country players.

However,Carlton and Hawthorn lodged complaints with the VFL, as they had productive zones and were naturally unwilling to give them up for less productive ones,^[1] so the zones remained the same from the inception of country zoning until it was abolished in 1986. There was also no provision for demographic changes which occurred in the various country zones, which exacerbated the problems mentioned above."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoning_(Australian_rules_football)

[Demonstone 22,643]

Schwarz was from our Under 19s via Sunbury.  Lyon was recruited before the draft commenced and also started in the U19s.

There were worse zones than us, notably Collingwood who had the most unproductive South-West of Victoria which was known as the Western Border League at that time.  Having said that, the Goulburn Valley didn't provide much in the way of talent for us.

[D4Life 2,476]

After only winning 5 games making finals is a pass

Making prelim a good year

Winning a prelim a very good year

Flag better than excellent 

Making a GF would be exceeding expectations after 2019

[BAMF 4,358]

On 1/12/2020 at 7:41 PM, old dee said:

One reason. He probably caught a few defences out in 2019. They will be right on to him this year.

It's one of the small games within a game that I am really looking forward to this year.

Without a doubt his opponent this year will be aware of what he can do and find new ways of attempting to shut him out.

I still remember Howe coping this when he played forward at times. His opponents figured out to simply make body contact during his run at the ball (illegally but too soft to call) preventing him from making a decent jump. Howe was a one trick pony and had no answer.

Fritsch isn't a one trick pony. He is a natural forward. Lacks a bit of speed but has worked on his endurance. It will be great to see the battle each week. What will they do to stop him and how will he overcome their tactics? It's a great thing. Fritsch deserves the attention because he is that talented. But can he take it to the next level?

[old dee 23,801]

12 minutes ago, BAMF said:

It's one of the small games within a game that I am really looking forward to this year.

Without a doubt his opponent this year will be aware of what he can do and find new ways of attempting to shut him out.

I still remember Howe coping this when he played forward at times. His opponents figured out to simply make body contact during his run at the ball (illegally but too soft to call) preventing him from making a decent jump. Howe was a one trick pony and had no answer.

Fritsch isn't a one trick pony. He is a natural forward. Lacks a bit of speed but has worked on his endurance. It will be great to see the battle each week. What will they do to stop him and how will he overcome their tactics? It's a great thing. Fritsch deserves the attention because he is that talented. But can he take it to the next level?

Good question BAMF, I hope he does as well as some are suggesting because we sure need a decent Forward to help take the pressure of TMac.